--- Log opened Fri May 20 13:54:04 2005
13:54  * dmacks knows this >< much about the workings of apt archives.
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14:14 < runelind> greetings
14:16 < htodd> so what's the "+100" thing again?
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14:21 < akh> htodd ?
14:22 < akh> on %r?
14:22 < htodd> oops. committed without changing
14:22 < htodd> let's see if I get more whining on this one
14:25 < akh> Of course you will.
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14:25 < akh> Just as I'm going to whine about having to build more KDE stuff.  ;-)
14:25 < akh> (consider it done)
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14:29 < geordie> when i run fink update-all i get this error:  dpkg: parse error, in file `/sw/var/lib/dpkg/status' near line 927 package `fink-buildlock-qt3-3.3.4-13': missing version  ### execution of dpkg failed, exit code 2  Can't set build lock for cyrus-sasl2 (2.1.20-2)
14:30 < akh> http://fink.sourceforge.net/faq/comp-general.php?phpLang=en#dpkg-parse-error
14:30 < geordie> thanks
14:31 < akh> No problem.
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14:34 -!- newmanbe [debian-tor@1f023a52d445bde9.session.tor] has joined #fink
14:47 < akh> heh.  /me just got a call from ADC about WWDC
14:49 < RangerRick> yeah
14:49 < RangerRick> got one of those earlier this week
14:50  * akh can't justify ponying up my own $ to go to stuff like that.
14:52 < runelind> WWDC = what will darwin compile? :P
14:52 < akh> lol
14:52 < akh> It's getting there.
14:53 < akh> That was certainly apropos for the 10.0.x days.
14:53 < RangerRick> yeah
14:54 < RangerRick> I would go if bbraun could score me tickets again, the problem being, by the time they were able to score tickets last time, I couldn't open up my schedule enough to go
14:54 < runelind> are they going to webcast WWDC?
14:54 < runelind> it was lame last time
14:54 < akh> They should podcast it.
14:54 < runelind> RangerRick: more KDE stuff?
14:55 < RangerRick> runelind: yup
14:55 < RangerRick> slowly working my way through bugs
14:55 < RangerRick> next is to look into kmail
14:55 < runelind> ah, cool beans
14:55 < RangerRick> someday *someday* I will be able to release kde to stable  =D
14:55 < akh> You may yet get to it before the 0.8 bindist is made.
14:56 < runelind> I'm playing around in ubuntu right now, but man do I loathe gnome - gonna have to try kubuntu :P
14:57 < akh> Does ubuntu have X.org available ?
15:00 < RangerRick> hey, don't we have a way to debug/dump the dep process now?
15:00  * RangerRick is trying to debug a circular dep bug
15:02 < akh> other than show-deps ?
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15:05 < akh> Or using HEAD ?
15:06 -!- harpoon [stueber@ultra20.rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #fink
15:10 < newmanbe> How nice, /map/index.php decided to stop sending me to the right language.
15:11 < newmanbe> Looking at it on on shell.sf.net, it appears to be binary...
15:11 < akh> ouch
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15:11 < newmanbe> It passes the php.
15:12 < newmanbe> It starts with <? instead of <?php.
15:13 < newmanbe> That wouldn't explain why it worked before.
15:13 < akh> No--not really.
15:14 < newmanbe> I got the CSS in /map/index.en.php working.
15:14  * akh will take a look.
15:18 < akh> dmalloc's last name doesn't look right in my browser
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15:18 < newmanbe> No, it doesn't, hadn't noticed..
15:18 < newmanbe> I suppose I will look up what that character is in HTML.
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15:19 < htodd> it's hosed in safari
15:21 < akh> Fixed it.
15:21 < akh> (index.php)
15:22 < newmanbe> Thanks.
15:22 < akh> I can either commit it, or tell you what I did.
15:22 < newmanbe> I can just add it.
15:23 < newmanbe> Only one line. :)
15:23 < akh> I opened up your file in TextEdit, and it looked OK.
15:23 < akh> But when I did a Save As, it said the file was UTF-16 rather than UTF-8.
15:23  * newmanbe took it from somewhere else in Fink's CVS so it really isn't mine.
15:23 < newmanbe> Oh.
15:24 < akh> I'll commit the file.
15:24 < akh> done
15:24 < newmanbe> Okay.
15:25 < akh> It definitely works on my testbed.
15:25 < akh> (fink apache2+php5)
15:26 < newmanbe> It works for /me.
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15:29 < akh> Good enough, then.
15:31  * newmanbe found the HTML code  for the dieresis for dmalloc.
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15:33 < newmanbe> !map
15:33 < Melian> I guess map is the location of some Fink developers and maintainers. It is at http://finkproject.org/map/ .
15:33 < newmanbe> Anyone see any other problems with it?
15:35 < newmanbe> Anyone not seeing problems with it?
15:38 < newmanbe> Anyone not look? :)
15:38 < RangerRick> problems with the html?  the map?  what?
15:38 < newmanbe> Anything.
15:40 < akh> "actually" -> "actual" at the bottom.
15:40 < akh> Looking at it, you might as well go with a polar projection and stop at the equator.
15:41 < akh> Or 20º N
15:41 < newmanbe> So just the northern hemisphere?
15:43 < akh> Just a thought.
15:43 < akh> Might motivate southern hemisphere people to contribute.  ;-)
15:43 < akh> Actually, as-is would be good for that.
15:43 < newmanbe> That is what I was thinking.
15:44 < akh> My original motivation was to expand the crowded areas out.
15:46 < newmanbe> The crowded area being the United States.
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15:46 < akh> Or Japan
15:46 < newmanbe> Or Japan.
15:46 < newmanbe> pogma says he would be fine if he was with the Tokyo people.
15:47 < akh> Probably not too important.
15:53 < newmanbe> Is the logo on the top of Fink web pages the result of the logo contest? http://www.finkproject.org/logo.php
15:54 < akh> I guess so.
15:59 < akh> Heh--Netscape had to release a security patch for Netscape 8 a day after the initial release.
16:01 < RangerRick> newmanbe: yes, it is
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16:14 < newmanbe> dmacks: http://finkproject.org/map/
16:16 < vasi> newmanbe, looks much nicer than before
16:16 < vasi> maybe just a zoom on Europe/North America/Japan would be useful
16:17 < vasi> not sure what your map-generation software allows
16:17 < newmanbe> I use xplanet, I could make multiple maps.
16:17 < vasi> so maybe in addition to the global map, zoom in on those areas
16:18 < newmanbe> I could use an image map with a link to the zoomed in map...
16:18 < vasi> dmacks, are you around?
16:19 < vasi> newmanbe, that could work
16:19 < newmanbe> dmacks just logged in.
16:21 < vasi> dmacks, when you're around can you tell me why we still do $MANPATH munging even though the man in Tiger automatically adds search paths based on $PATH?
16:21 < vasi> if anybody else happens to know, they're free to say too :-)
16:22 < newmanbe> 'Cause not everyone uses Tiger?
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16:23 < vasi> but we already test for Tiger in init.sh i believe
16:24 < newmanbe> 'Cause no one bothered to change it?
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16:26 < cirdan> hey vasi
16:26 -!- lane [~lschwart@c-66-41-225-182.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has left #fink ["Kopete 0.10 : http://kopete.kde.org"]
16:26 < cirdan> dmacks.
16:26 < vasi> hi cirdan
16:26 < cirdan> !get lost
16:26 < Melian> hides in the corner.
16:26 < cirdan> :-)
16:26 < newmanbe> !botsnack
16:26 < Melian> :)
16:27 < cirdan> !get lost
16:27  * Melian hides in the corner.
16:27 < RangerRick> vasi: got an indexing bug  :)
16:27 < RangerRick> Failed: compile phase: can't build mx4j-3.0.1-1 because no package description is available
16:27 < newmanbe> !lart corners
16:27  * Melian pulls out his louisville slugger and uses corners's head to break the homerun record
16:27 < cirdan> hehe
16:27 < RangerRick> I was working on mx4j
16:27 < cirdan> !botsnack
16:27 < Melian> thanks cirdan :)
16:27 < RangerRick> I upped it to 3.0.1 over 2.1.1 (the info file in my exp)
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16:27 < RangerRick> then I found out some of the other mx4j-using stuff isn't compatible with it
16:27 < RangerRick> so I copied mx4j.info to mx4j3.info
16:27 < RangerRick> and put mx4j.info back to 2.1.1
16:27 < RangerRick> (but forgot to change Package: mx4j in the mx4j3.info file)
16:28 < RangerRick> now even if I change mx4j3.info to have Package: mx4j3 and touch the mx4j.info file
16:28 < RangerRick> it still is trying to build 3.0.1
16:28 < vasi> hmm...
16:28 < RangerRick> it's like there's an orphaned index file somewhere
16:28 < vasi> trying to get that all straight in my head :-)
16:28 < RangerRick> :)
16:29 < RangerRick> replacing content in files, making new files, it's messy
16:29 < RangerRick> and unlikely
16:29 < vasi> ok, well let's see what it's doing....go into your Package.pm
16:29 < vasi> and in the function pass1_update, there are two commented out lines
16:30 < vasi> uncomment them and add 'if $info =~ /mx4j/' to the end
16:30 < vasi> (i'm doing this from memory, so lemme just check to make sure that's right)
16:31 < RangerRick> Not reading: /sw/fink/dists/unstable/main/finkinfo/libs/mx4j.info
16:31 < RangerRick> Not reading: /sw/fink/dists/local/rangerrick/common/main/finkinfo/libs/mx4j.info
16:31 < RangerRick> Not reading: /sw/fink/dists/local/rangerrick/common/main/finkinfo/libs/mx4j3.info
16:31 < RangerRick> touch it again?
16:31 < RangerRick> guess that's not something I normally ask ;)
16:31 < vasi> lol
16:31 < vasi> what version is the one in unstable?
16:32 < RangerRick> 2.0.1
16:32 < RangerRick> Not reading: /sw/fink/dists/unstable/main/finkinfo/libs/mx4j.info
16:32 < RangerRick> Reading: /sw/fink/dists/local/rangerrick/common/main/finkinfo/libs/mx4j.info
16:32 < RangerRick> Reading package info...Not reading: /sw/fink/dists/local/rangerrick/common/main/finkinfo/libs/mx4j3.info
16:32 < RangerRick> done.
16:32 < RangerRick> now I get that
16:32 < RangerRick> but it still tries installing mx4j 3.0.1
16:33 < RangerRick> and the only file with "3.0.1" in is is the mx4j3.info
16:33 < RangerRick> which is now Package: mx4j3
16:33 < dmacks> RangerRick: Dump the whole pdb as a Status file then use dotty to find the cycle? Or just write your own cycle detector. Or maybe easiest to dump the deps as a set of pairs and use tsort:)
16:34 < dmacks> newmanbe: Looks nice!
16:35  * RangerRick movies finkinfodb out of the way to see what happens
16:35 < vasi> wait RR
16:35 < vasi> oh fine, try that first
16:35 < RangerRick> moving, not rm'ing
16:36 < vasi> yeah, but it's gonna overwrite your index.db
16:37 < dmacks> vasi: Even on Tiger we need to do MANPATH games for the perlXXX. If a MANPATH is set, does it override the autodetermined one from PATH (as is the case on pre-Tiger), or does it append PATH-based to the explicit MANPATH?
16:37 < newmanbe> We probably want to make a link from /people.php.
16:37 < RangerRick> ah, ok
16:37 < RangerRick> well moving finkinfodb didn't help, still tries 3.0.1
16:38 < vasi> i think it inserts the PATH-based dirs into MANPATH
16:38 < vasi> i'm not sure how it decides where they should go
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16:39 < dmacks> Try 'MANPATH=foo;manpath;man -d' and see if it /usr/share/man gets searched?
16:39 < vasi> RR, can you do a dumpinfo?
16:39 < dmacks> (or whatever bash syntax...*gah*)
16:39  * RangerRick takes a dump
16:39 < vasi> i have no idea what that was supposed to mean, dmacks :-)
16:39 < cirdan> tmi
16:40 < vasi> oh crikey, dumpinfo only shows the most recent infofile? that's weird
16:40 < dmacks> Explicitly set MANPATH to something stupid, not anything related to any PATH. Then ask "what dirs will be searched for manpages?"
16:41 < dmacks> vasi: dumpinfo *should* be like install, where one can ask for foo-1.2-1
16:41 < vasi> dmacks, it seems to allow MANPATH to override it
16:41 < RangerRick> vasi: all I'm getting is a type: dummy package
16:41 < RangerRick> with not much in it
16:41 < vasi> dummy!?
16:41 < RangerRick> if I dumpinfo "mx4j"
16:42 < RangerRick> as in, it never finishes filling it out
16:42 < RangerRick> it tries to make a package object, but has no info to fill in, I think
16:42 < vasi> hmm this is very strange...
16:42 < dmacks> Then given that we need to set MANPATH for perl, we need to fully load it with the PATH ones also.
16:42 < lisppaste> RangerRick pasted "fink dumpinfo mx4j" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/8445
16:42 < RangerRick> yeah, it's f**ked up
16:43 < vasi> dmacks, we should probably just modify man.conf?
16:45 < cirdan> heh
16:45 < vasi> maybe it's getting the higher version from dpkg?
16:46 < vasi> but it shouldn't set it to a dummy unless it's the only one i think
16:46 < vasi> can you see what happens using a fink in the 0.24.x series?
16:48 < RangerRick> ok, just a sec
16:48 < dmacks> vasi: We used to have our own man.conf...was a royal pain to maintain so we dumped it heading into 10....um .2 I think.
16:48 < vasi> dmacks, ok...i guess cuz the perl version can change at runtime
16:48 < RangerRick> I say we just ignore man pages
16:48 < RangerRick> users don't read documentation anyways
16:49 < cirdan> hehe
16:51 < RangerRick> vasi: happens with 0.24.6 even after a "fink index"
16:51 < RangerRick> wtf??
16:51 < Melian> extra, extra, read all about it, wtf is [W]hat [t]he [F]uck?!?
16:51 < RangerRick> am I totally missing something in my info files?
16:51 < vasi> RR, glad to know it's not my fault at least :-)
16:51  * RangerRick removes mx4j3
16:51 < RangerRick> :)
16:52 < vasi> RR, try 'dpkg -r m4j3'
16:52 < vasi> or whatever it's called, yeah
16:52 < RangerRick> it never got built that way
16:52 < vasi> er, dpkg -r <whatever the fark the one you have install is>
16:52 < vasi> basically, dpkg is saying 'hey, i know about this newer version!'
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16:53 < vasi> we should probably have a flag for latest_version that can find 'latest version that isn't a dummy'...or something like that
16:54 < RangerRick> mx4j3 was never dpkg installed
16:54 < RangerRick> it was just created so I didn't lose my changes that I did for 3.0.1
16:54 < RangerRick> just copy the info file
16:54 < RangerRick> accidentally index while it still had "mx4j" in the Package: field instead of "mx4j3"
16:54 < RangerRick> and then change the name in the Package: field
16:54 < RangerRick> and now it's somehow stuck
16:55 < RangerRick> but considering I cleaned out the indexes, I'm not quite sure how
16:55 -!- MacDome [~MacDome@A17-202-15-246.apple.com] has joined #fink
16:58 < vasi> well you did a full re-index, there's no way for it to get stuck
16:58 < cirdan> !wb MacDome 
16:58 < Melian> Welcome back MacDome, o lonely traveller amongst the TCP/IP packets of chaos.
16:58 < vasi> i mean, you even re-indexed with a totally different fink which uses a different indexing system
16:58 < RangerRick> yeah
16:58 < RangerRick> but I don't know where it's coming from
16:58 < RangerRick> I'll just keep banging on it until it goes away
16:59 < RangerRick> and we won't know what fixes it
16:59 < RangerRick> :)
16:59 < vasi> see if anything's in your dpkg status file?
17:00 < RangerRick> hah!
17:00 < dmacks> We (okay dpkg) needs a status-decruft tool.
17:01 < RangerRick> swear to god, never installed it
17:01 < vasi> RR, liar :-P
17:01 < RangerRick> and yet...
17:01 < lisppaste> RangerRick annotated #8445 with "wtf/" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/8445#1
17:01 < RangerRick> nope, it failed to install before
17:01 < RangerRick> oooh
17:01 < RangerRick> we're showing "not installed" in the list
17:01 < cirdan> heh
17:01 < RangerRick> Status: deinstall ok config-files
17:01 < RangerRick> that would definitely be a bug  :)
17:02 < RangerRick> I did install mx4j
17:02 < RangerRick> just not the one that was in mx4j3.info
17:02 < RangerRick> but that doesn't stop it from having entries from when I *did* have a mx4j-3.0.1 package
17:03 < RangerRick> so all the stuff that happened with info files later was a red herring
17:03 < RangerRick> the real issue was dpkg having non-purged but removed packages around
17:03 < RangerRick> hey, look at that, mx4j buildind  ;)
17:03 < RangerRick> building too
17:04 < dmacks> mmmm....herring.....
17:04 < RangerRick> so I guess it's time to decide what representation removed but non-purged packages have in our DB  :)
17:04 < RangerRick> and I can update back to cvs and get my fast indexing back
17:04 < RangerRick> :)
17:05 < RangerRick> this would be a really rare error though
17:05 < RangerRick> almost not worth handling
17:05 < RangerRick> unless it's easy
17:05 < dmacks> "poor" "variable" and "non-deterministic" all fit the bill
17:05 < RangerRick> I could reproduce it now that I know what's happening
17:05 < dmacks> Visit Status.pm
17:06 < vasi> yeah, i guess we should not take anything from status unless it's installed?
17:06 < RangerRick> yeah, I think so
17:06 < RangerRick> well...
17:06 < RangerRick> is status used for the apt db too?
17:06 < newmanbe> Any interest in having a map of the mirrors for Fink?
17:06 < RangerRick> in the case of apt, we *want* things not installed
17:06 < RangerRick> just not for dpkg, where we can't guarantee a .deb is around
17:07 < RangerRick> we need to be able to mark a dep as "binary"
17:07 < RangerRick> so we can skip it for the purposes of building
17:07 < vasi> apt is different
17:07 < RangerRick> since it is a valid entry
17:07 < RangerRick> it's there, just not installed
17:07 < vasi> aptgetable is a property of packages that come from .info files
17:08 < RangerRick> and if I hadn't done "find /sw/fink -name mx4j\*.deb -exec rm -rf {} \;" it would have been installable
17:08 < vasi> so you can't have a package that fink only knows about from apt
17:08 < RangerRick> vasi: I thought we indexed the output of apt-get as well
17:08 < vasi> RR, we do
17:08 < vasi> but we don't create any new packages from it
17:08 < RangerRick> but only put it in the db if it matches an info file?
17:09 < RangerRick> I see
17:09 < vasi> i'm not sure why not to be honest, it's just how things evolved :-)
17:09 < RangerRick> yeah
17:09 < RangerRick> seems safer to put everything in the db (especially since fink is capable of using apt-get to match deps)
17:09 < vasi> it does take a while to get the information from apt, so there's a performance concern
17:09 < RangerRick> but mark things as non-source-build or something
17:09 < RangerRick> ah
17:10 < vasi> also until very very recently, and unless you have AutoScanpackages enabled, what apt thinks is around is likely to be wrong
17:10 < RangerRick> yeah
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17:20 < vasi> if i have different perl variants...and they all want to install the same executables in %p/bin....should i make a foo-pm5XX-tools splitoff, or use update-alternatives?
17:26 < newmanbe> Any thoughts about making a map of the mirrors for Fink?
17:28 < dmacks> vasi: current practice is foo-pmXXX-bin. Because so few people use update-alternatives and it's not documented in fink's docs, nobody does it that way and users don't know how to use it.
17:29 < vasi> update-alternatives is kinda cleaner though
17:29 < dmacks> Using -pmXXX-bin allows users to not have to learn Yet Another Alternatives Mechanism.
17:29 < vasi> alrighty then
17:30  * dmacks thinks a few leave them in the -pmXXX and use Replaces on all other -pmXXY, which is the easiest and least good of the approaches IMO.
17:30 < vasi> where should i put the actual bins (not the symlinks)? %p/lib/perl5/5.x.y/bin ?
17:31 < dmacks> Symlinks?
17:31 < vasi> well the binaries have to be *available* all the time
17:32 < vasi> (cuz otherwise the package isn't especially useful)
17:32 < dmacks> Oh, these are back-end tools of the module itself not just userland programs?
17:32 < vasi> well the package is Mac::Glue
17:33 < vasi> while the package is installed, the user has likely used the 'gluemac' command to make more glues (which go in /Library/Glues or some such)
17:33 < vasi> and then if they update Mac::Glue, the user should run a command to update their glues
17:34 < vasi> so i'd like to tell the user in postinst "Hey, you might wanna run this command later!"
17:36 -!- KraMer [~mark@adsl-70-240-190-107.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
17:36 < dmacks> pythonXX installs binaries as "fooX.X", and then an optional symlink "foo->fooX.X" in the optional "python" versionless front-end
17:36 < vasi> ah, that makes a lot of sense
17:37 < dmacks> So you could have mac-glue-updater{5.8.1,5.8.6,etc} so user could choose what the heck to do if he's got lots of glue modules instlaled at once.
17:37 < dmacks> (after he's done whining on -beginners, obviously:)
17:37 < vasi> heh
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17:48 -!- You're now known as RangerAway
17:49  * newmanbe closes his eyes and downloads fink-beginners via NTTP.
17:49 < newmanbe> The headers anyway.
17:49 -!- MacinMan [ssqonw@sdn-ap-005dcwashP0231.dialsprint.net] has joined #fink
17:50 < MacinMan> hey all how's it going? i'm trying to build ncftp by hand on tiger on Jaguar and panther i have no issues with tiger i get make error 1
17:51 < newmanbe> By hand as in building from source using Fink?
17:51 < newmanbe> Or without Fink?
17:52 < MacinMan> without fink ncftp alwyas built for me on pre tiger
17:52 < MacinMan> without fink
17:52 < MacinMan> i'm trying to find out what apple did different
17:52 < newmanbe> Are you trying to update it? ncftp is already in Fink.
17:52 < newmanbe> Oh.
17:53 < newmanbe> !lisppaste
17:53 < Melian> it has been said that lisppaste is a bot that lets you post large chunks of text without flooding the channel. Use it at http://paste.lisp.org/new/fink
17:53 < RangerAway> MacinMan: you could look at what fink did  :P
17:53 < newmanbe> You can past the error with more context there.
17:53 < RangerAway> we port things so you don't have to....
17:53 < RangerAway> *cough*
17:54 < newmanbe> It is always nice if they contribute though too.
17:54 < MacinMan> well ncftp never need porting for me
17:54 < MacinMan> needed even
17:55 < MacinMan> by the way is the tiger installer aviable yet?
17:55 < newmanbe> The .info doesn't look like it does anything "major".
17:56 < newmanbe> No.
17:56 < MacinMan> for fink?
17:56  * newmanbe looks at the topic.
17:56 < MacinMan> the site said in a few weeks
17:56 < MacinMan> from when i checked it
17:57 < newmanbe> It apparently works on Tiger.
17:57  * newmanbe goes off to a computer not connected to the Internet.
17:58 < lisppaste> MacinMan pasted "NCFTP breakage on Tiger" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/8448
17:59 < RangerAway> you might want to consider building the latest version  :P
17:59 < MacinMan> is there newer then 3.1.8?
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18:05 < MacinMan> thanks ranger-away
18:05 < mcp> 3.1.9 works on tiger
18:05 < MacinMan> checking it out :)
18:05 < mcp> want a deb?
18:06 < MacinMan> i don't have fink installed
18:06 < mcp> hehe
18:06 < MacinMan> i'm downloading the source
18:06 < MacinMan> well see ncftp always built out of the box for me
18:06 < MacinMan> so when it broke on tiger
18:06 < MacinMan> it was a shock
18:06 < mcp> :)
18:06 < MacinMan> but i had an old version
18:07 < MacinMan> is the server free too?
18:08 < MacinMan> the client always asks me to have my admin try the server
18:08 < MacinMan> i'm the admin hehe
18:08 < mcp> server isnt free
18:08 -!- newmanbe [debian-tor@1f023a52d445bde9.session.tor] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
18:08 < MacinMan> ok
18:09 -!- newmanbe [~xchat-ssl@d9c708956e65f73d.session.tor] has joined #fink
18:09 < MacinMan> does gcc 4 break stuff? i went back to 3.3
18:11 < mcp> I bet it will
18:11 < MacinMan> phew i thought i had lost my cell phone
18:11 < MacinMan> i found it
18:12 < MacinMan> i assume xcode 1.5 will not work on tiger right?
18:15 < mcp> I think not
18:15 < MacinMan> i didn't think so
18:16 < MacinMan> i love the tiger gui now it's time to get down and dirty and play with the unix part
18:16 < MacinMan> and see how many of my apps break ;)
18:25 < MacinMan> mcp
18:25 < MacinMan> i am having other trouble now
18:25 < MacinMan> i ran comfigure
18:25 < MacinMan> and it was fine
18:25 < MacinMan> i type make and now i get a make error with command not found
18:31 < pogma> MacinMan: (re)install the xcode tools
18:32 < MacinMan> oh i fixed it
18:32 < MacinMan> i did it in  a diff directory
18:32 < MacinMan> and it's building
18:33 < MacinMan> pogma i know how to do gcc_select 3.3 but whats the command to get version 4 back?
18:34 < MacinMan> i tried gcc_select 4 and it didn't recogize it as a valid command
18:34 -!- akh_ [~akhansen@68-118-244-23.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #fink
18:34 < vasi> try gcc_select -h
18:35 -!- akh [~akhansen@ldx3.psfc.mit.edu] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
18:35 < MacinMan> ok
18:35 -!- akh_ is now known as akh
18:36 -!- akh_ [~akhansen@ldx3.psfc.mit.edu] has joined #fink
18:39 < MacinMan> akh i fixed it
18:39 < MacinMan> finally :)
18:39 < MacinMan> hey akh can i pull gcc 3.1 from another xcode version and install it
18:40 < MacinMan> so i have all three
18:41 < vasi> does it actually work?
18:43 < MacinMan> ncftp?
18:43 < MacinMan> i haven't tried it yet
18:43 < MacinMan> i'm trying a build with gcc 4.0 first
18:44 < vasi> gcc 3.1 that you grabbed
18:44 < MacinMan> to see if it's a good compiler for me to use
18:44 < cirdan> sweet...
18:44 < MacinMan> i haven't grabbed it yet
18:44 < MacinMan> i just wondered if i could
18:44 < MacinMan> xcode for panther has the old gccs as seperate installs
18:45 < cirdan> so does tiger
18:45 < MacinMan> tiger only goes to 3.3
18:45 < cirdan> right
18:45 < MacinMan> i have stuff that needs 3.1
18:46 < cirdan> so fix the code, it's really, really broken if it needs 3.1 :-)
18:46 < cirdan> most distros have moved on
18:46 < MacinMan> ok
18:46 < cirdan> so unless it's custom code, look on debian/redhat/bsd for patches
18:49 < vasi> MacinMan, what do you have that needs 3.1?
18:49 < MacinMan> the package i submitted to fink
18:49 < MacinMan> it was written back in 97
18:49 < MacinMan> and never was updated
18:50 < MacinMan> the project was abanded
18:50 < MacinMan> and in order to fix it the whole thing needs to be re written
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18:59 < MacinMan> actually i might be able to fix it with gcc 4
18:59 < MacinMan> it don't give the same error as 3.3 on panther did
19:03 < akh> Go for it.
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19:08 < akh> holy G4 battery recall!
19:11 < newmanbe> iBook power adapter class action lawsuit.
19:14 < akh> yup.  
19:14 < akh> Luckily mine was an older model.
19:19 < Feanor_> well, you do get a new battery for free
19:19 < akh> Good point.
19:20 < MacinMan> it sounds like this battery business is big news
19:20 < MacinMan> everyone's talking about it
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19:23 < MacinMan> hey akh i'm impressed with gcc on my new eMac G4 1.42 ghz
19:23 < MacinMan> it's quite quick to compile
19:23 < akh> Rub it in.  :-P
19:23 < MacinMan> why? i thought you had a fast mac
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19:24 < akh> Nope--two slow ones.
19:25 < MacinMan> i have three macs now that run os x
19:25 < MacinMan> my orginial G3 blue and white 350 mhz an ibook 800 mhz g3 and my eMac 1.42 ghz G4
19:26 < MacinMan> speaking of which do any of the fink compiled packages make use of altivec
19:26 < MacinMan> or whateve the G4's have
19:27 < akh> I think a few do.
19:27 < akh> e.g. mplayer-altivec
19:27 < MacinMan> ahh ok
19:28 < MacinMan> i was impressed to see apple updated X11
19:28 < MacinMan> to 4.4 of xfree
19:28 < akh> Yes.   xorg's still better.
19:28 < MacinMan> is apple going to xorg for next release ?
19:29 < akh> Knowing them, probably XFree86 4.5
19:30 < MacinMan> well what would be neat and the ultimate challenge is doing away with x11 and bulding it into the os so double clicking the icon opens the app directly without starting another app first
19:30 < vasi> x11 and OS X window management is too different i think
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19:32 < MacinMan> yeah thats true although many x apps have been ported to aqua
19:34 < akh> Only those that use GUI toolkits that have been ported.
19:34 < vasi> for some definition of "many", of which i am not aware
19:34 < akh> >=1
19:35 < akh> LyX is one example.
19:35 < akh> And that's even one that I use extensively.
19:36 < MacinMan> lyx? isn't that the text bas www thing?
19:36 < akh> Nope.
19:36 < akh> That's lynx.
19:36 < akh> LyX is basically a frontend to LaTeX.
19:36 < MacinMan> yeah what is latex
19:37 < MacinMan> alot of stuff needs it
19:37 < akh> It's part of TeX, which is a typesetting engine.
19:37 < MacinMan> ahh ok
19:37 < MacinMan> how's kde 3.4 work on the mac
19:37 < MacinMan> it never built for me on the G3
19:38 < MacinMan> it crashed and burnned
19:38 < akh> On Panther, great.  I can't speak for Tiger.
19:38 < MacinMan> no tiger for you yet?
19:38 < akh> I was waiting for 10.4.1
19:38 < akh> I had a test seed, but filled up my spare disk.
19:39 < MacinMan> ahh ok
19:39 < MacinMan> one of my favorite things for amusement is
19:39 < MacinMan> to see people come into the room and beg for a free copy of software
19:39 < MacinMan> like somone's gonna give it to them
19:39 < newmanbe> Free software as RMS would call it?
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19:40 < MacinMan> well it's kind of funny when they come in and say like i need a free copy of tiger like they're despewrate
19:41 < MacinMan> or especially when they don't read the topic
19:41 < akh> It's the subliminal messages in Dashboard.
19:41 < MacinMan> actually the only time i'd need a free copy is if my orginial cd go damaged
19:42 < MacinMan> so what macs do you won akh?
19:42 < akh> Right.  But since there's no license key, you could borrow media from someone else.
19:43 < akh> I use (they're owned by work) a dual G4/450 and a G4/867 Powerbook.
19:43 < MacinMan> ahh ok
19:44 < akh> Hence the reason I don't have a faster box.
19:44 < MacinMan> ok
19:44  * akh couldn't justify it after getting the laptop.
19:44 < MacinMan> what would you say the performence of gcc would be on my ibook 800
19:44 < MacinMan> G3
19:44 < MacinMan> or the linker that is
19:44 < MacinMan> would it be slow as heck still
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19:45 < akh> The Tiger linker seems much improved.
19:45 < MacinMan> yeahj it actually does
19:45 < MacinMan> actually panther looked like an enhanced version of jaguar to me
19:45 < MacinMan> with added features
19:45 < MacinMan> tiger is totally new though
19:47 < MacinMan> anyway akh what do you suggest i do about BRS  as far as tiger users go since it works best with gcc 3.1
19:47 < akh> Isn't there a Fink gcc3.1 package for Tiger?
19:47 < MacinMan> what i here yes
19:48 < MacinMan> as long as gcc 3.1 is aviable it's fine
19:48 < akh> Go with that if it works.
19:48 < akh> If you can get it to build with gcc4 later put out a new version.
19:48 -!- KraMer [~mark@adsl-70-240-190-107.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #fink
19:48 < MacinMan> i just am not sure with the age of the program and the fink standards if re writing the source to accomidate newer stuff would be acceptable
19:49 < akh> Yeah--good point.
19:49 < MacinMan> it appears the work needing to be done is too involved for a patch
19:50 < akh> Ouch.
19:50 < akh> Then leave it as is.
19:50 < akh> And maybe find a newer Bible program to port.
19:50 -!- Zugwrack [~Zugwrack@cpe-24-27-120-83.houston.res.rr.com] has joined #fink
19:50 < MacinMan> well under panther/gcc it appears it's just one file that needs to be fixed
19:50 < MacinMan> with tiger and gcc 4 the errors changed
19:50 < akh> I'm surprised a patch won't do it.
19:50 < MacinMan> but still happened
19:51 < MacinMan> well appearently what it is is the source used calls routines that are no longer valid in the newer compilers
19:51 < Zugwrack> I see that KDE still isn't available for Tiger...is there a bundle-gnome-blah? I don't see one in the list...
19:51 < akh> hmm...
19:52 < akh> Zugwrack: http://fink.sourceforge.net/pdb/package.php/bundle-gnome
19:52 < akh> (since it's working again)
19:52 -!- Feanor [~astrange@mp1-249-1.dialup.emory.edu] has joined #fink
19:53 -!- akh is now known as akh_eating
19:53 < MacinMan> hey akh can i install my current copy of fink 0.7.1 on tiger and update it and have it work
19:53 -!- MacDome [~MacDome@17.255.98.182] has joined #fink
19:53 < akh_eating> nope.
19:53 < MacinMan> ok
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20:23 < dreamind> nite :)
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21:56 < m4dvillain> is there a maintainer for nessus?
21:56 < rudy> fink info nessus
21:57 < m4dvillain> yeah, it comes up with fink-devel@sourceforge
21:58 < m4dvillain> ah, i was looking @ libnessus
21:58 -!- harfooz [~clint@nb-209-213-26-025.backroads.net] has joined #fink
21:58 < m4dvillain> would he be maintaining that?
22:02 -!- m4dvillain [~madvillai@dsl-202-72-170-245.wa.westnet.com.au] has quit ["leaving"]
22:05 < rudy> he who?
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22:21 < harfooz> hi all -- I have an iBook that I need to get set up to run LaTeX, and prefer emacs for my editing. I've installed fink many months ago, and today I ran the selfupdate...
22:21 < harfooz> I've installed tetex-base and emacs21...
22:21 < harfooz> There are two problems that I don't know how to solve:
22:22 < harfooz> a) when I want to start any app that I install via fink I have to be in /sw/bin to do so. I want to be in an xterm and simply type the name and have the app run, so I need help with setting the path correctly.
22:23 < harfooz> and b) xdvi gives me two errors: line 1: kpsewhich: command not found and line 46: exec: xdvi-motif.bin not found.
22:24 < clepple> I think b will be solved once you fix a
22:24 < clepple> do you use Apple's X11?
22:24 < harfooz> yes
22:24 < harfooz> http://fink.sourceforge.net/faq/usage-fink.php?phpLang=en#fink-not-found
22:25 < harfooz> I tried the . /sw/bin/init.sh line in .xinitrc which I had to create, but that just made X fail to load.
22:25 < clepple> http://fink.sourceforge.net/doc/x11/run-xfree86.php#xinitrc
22:26 < clepple> note how the first link said to "add the line"
22:26 < clepple> you can't just have a one-line xinitrc
22:26 < harfooz> ok
22:26 < clepple> the other option (IMHO easier) is to just change the menu item for xterm to 'xterm -ls'
22:27 < clepple> -ls for 'login shell'
22:27 < clepple> which should read your init script, and hopefully set up the environment
22:28 < harfooz> do you mean in the X11 Application Menu, change the Terminal Command from xterm to xterm -ls?
22:28 < harfooz> (I'm new to OS X, coming from Debian)
22:28 < clepple> yeah, Applications -> Customize
22:29 < clepple> actually, that may not change the xterm that pops up at first
22:29 < clepple> I usually ignore that one :-)
22:29 < harfooz> \o/ that did it!
22:30 < harfooz> thanks, so very much -- one problem down and one to go!
22:30 < clepple> remember, just being in the /sw/bin directory doesn't solve the $PATH problem
22:30 < clepple> but setting up the init files should
22:30 < harfooz> is there a way to change the initial terminal?
22:30  * clepple ducks
22:30 < clepple> it's in xinitrc
22:31 < clepple> like I said, I just close out the initial terminal when I start X11
22:31 < harfooz> that solved the second problem -- xdvi is lookin' good!
22:31 < clepple> then later I run something like this from Terminal.app: 'DISPLAY=:0 gnucash'
22:31 < harfooz> if you were here, I'd buy you a cold refreshing beverage -- I've been after this for hours on my own today.
22:32 < harfooz> do you use latex, by any chance?
22:32 < clepple> not recently
22:32 < clepple> I used TeXShop when editing my thesis last year
22:33  * clepple is a recovering emacs addict
22:33 < harfooz> I got turned onto using Prosper for slides, but prosper isn't available, and I was wondering what people do in that case.
22:33 < clepple> also, DVI is soo 1995
22:34 < clepple> I used pdflatex and never looked back
22:34 < harfooz> (I'm giving away how old I am, I guess)
22:34 < clepple> it's cool
22:34 < clepple> the first lab where I was a sysadmin, we had LaTeX 2.09
22:34 < harfooz> pdflatex takes the place of dvipdf?
22:34 < clepple> or whatever the version was before 2e
22:34 < clepple> yeah
22:34 < Feanor> pdflatex uses fonts that used to break Preview/quartz pdf rendering
22:34 < Feanor> i don't know if they still do
22:34 < clepple> really
22:35 < Feanor> but it rendered them as ridiculously ugly bitmaps that scaled terrible
22:35 < Feanor> *terribly
22:35 < clepple> I used TeXShop and Acrobat reader
22:35 < clepple> but I thought that TeXShop basically used the same underlying engine as Preview
22:35 < clepple> harfooz: hold on a sec and I'll dig up the slides from my thesis presentation
22:36 < clepple> also done in LaTeX
22:36 < harfooz> I've got TeXShop on here also, but just had a difficult time reaching for the mouse.
22:37 < harfooz> clepple, here are some that two of my students did this term for an undergrad project:
22:37 < clepple> pdfscreen is in Fink
22:37 < harfooz> penguinsolutions.org/math398/slides.pdf
22:38 < clepple> nice
22:39 < harfooz> and here's their paper:
22:39 < harfooz> http://penguinsolutions.org/math398/bmi.pdf
22:40 < harfooz> all the analysis and graphics were done with R.
22:40 < clepple> ok so pdfscreen does have a bit more of a TeX-ish look to it
22:40 < clepple> here's one with pdfscreen: http://boxster.ghz.cc/~clepple/s3.pdf
22:41 < harfooz> what did you use for the graphics on the LA-2000 block diagram?
22:41 < harfooz> xfig or dia maybe?
22:42 < clepple> xfig
22:42 < clepple> it has support for LaTeX markup in captions
22:42 < clepple> actually it passes them through
22:42 < harfooz> How about the graph for Gain error?
22:42 < clepple> gnuplot
22:43 < harfooz> ah -- I've used it also.
22:43 < clepple> actually
22:43 < harfooz> I like the navigation tools that you've got included. Did that come with pdfscreen as a default?
22:43 < clepple> that might have been octave+gnuplot
22:43 -!- m4dvillain [~madvillai@dsl-202-72-170-245.wa.westnet.com.au] has joined #fink
22:44 < clepple> yes they came with pdfscreen, but I might have had to tweak some options to enable them
22:44 < clepple> here was the line I used:
22:44 < clepple> \usepackage[screen,panelright,sectionbreak]{pdfscreen}
22:45 < clepple> I told my employer I'd give them a year before I published it, but then they abandoned the project after I graduated
22:45 < clepple> so it's high time that I posted all the files on the 'net
22:45 < harfooz> clepple, so the reason I was working on this iBook trying to get it to do what I usually do on my Debian boxes, is that I've got some funds available that would allow me to get either a 15" powerbook or a thinkpad. I know this is likely a loaded question, but can I get all my usual work-related things done (LaTeX, R) on a PB with fink?
22:46 < clepple> but before I do that, I need to double-check the copyright status on VT theses
22:46 < clepple> well
22:46 < clepple> I used a ThinkPad with Debian to do most of my work
22:46 < clepple> but I haven't ever used R
22:46 < harfooz> I've got the binary for R already installed on my iBook and it works very well.
22:47 < clepple> it was just the last few months of preparation that happened on a Cube with Fink
22:47 < clepple> there's a slight learning curve, of course, but for a student on a budget, it can be a lot easier on the wallet and the conscience
22:48 < harfooz> I worry that I would lose lots of time piddling with the thinkpad to get things like sleep and hibernate and wireless to work correctly on the thinkpad, and I worry that I would lose much time getting all my usual tools set up on the pb.
22:48 < harfooz> which one easier do you mean? the thinkpad or the pb?
22:48 < clepple> I didn't realize how far behind octave's plotting support was compared to Matlab, but as you can see, it wasn't too complicated to begin with
22:49 < clepple> oh wait you're comparing a thinkpad w/ debian to a PB
22:49 < harfooz> right
22:49 < clepple> yeah, you should be able to do everything in Fink... but I don't know what other packages you use
22:49 < harfooz> thinkpad with debian (or Ubuntu or Libranet or some such ) to the pb.
22:49 < clepple> I thought you meant vs. a thinkpad w/ commercial software (i.e. matlab full edition)
22:50 < harfooz> nah -- I pay for software (Libranet) but I try to use as much freely available stuff as I can -- just a "thing" with me.
22:51 < harfooz> It goes back to when I was a student and couldn't afford even a student discount on SAS. 
22:51 < harfooz> So I vowed that I would never require a software purchase for my studnents.
22:52 < harfooz> Since I couldn't afford SAS, I just wrote what I needed in Java.
22:52 < clepple> heh. forgot about this: the page before the summary (in s3.pdf) lists all the open-source stuff I used
22:52 < harfooz> oh shoot -- and I missed that!
22:52 < clepple> somehow it didn't get a pdf bookmark
22:56 < harfooz> would an iBook (with some added RAM) get my kind of work done just as well as the PB?
22:57 < clepple> again, I don't know much about R
22:57 -!- KraMer [~mark@adsl-70-240-190-107.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
22:58 < clepple> for comparison, the Thinkpad I used was a 770 - Pentium 233MHz with 192 MB RAM
22:58 < clepple> so I guess I'm used to long LaTeX runs
22:58  * harfooz nods
22:59 < clepple> btw, if I had to do it all over again, I would have learned python
23:00 < clepple> iPython can really hold its own against Matlab for general numerical work
23:00 < clepple> not sure about the plotting support, but there are a bunch of options
23:00 < harfooz> me too. I keep thinking I'm going to get into learning it, but keep writing quick Perl scripts to get something done in a hurry.
23:01 < clepple> I'm a big fan of the O'Reilly "Python in a Nutshell" book
23:01 < baba> hmm it seems i added /cvsroot/fink/dists/cvs by mistake?
23:01 < clepple> although it's really meant for folks with a good programming background
23:01 < harfooz> I'm going to log off this box and back into the iBook to discover what else fink can add for me. Many thanks again!
23:01 < harfooz> later all!
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23:01 < clepple> no problem
23:02 < clepple> baba: you may have to ask SF.net support to help with that
23:02 < clepple> because you can't remotely delete a directory in CVS, you can only empty the contents
23:03 -!- newmanbe [~xchat-ssl@d9c708956e65f73d.session.tor] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
23:03 < clepple> and if its called 'cvs', that might conflict with 'CVS' on HFS+ volumes
23:03 < baba> clepple, the fink-commit says i made it, but i cannot find the directory.  maybe CVS?
23:04 < clepple> strange
23:05 < baba> can u check the dist directory?
23:05 -!- KraMer [~mark@adsl-70-240-190-107.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #fink
23:05 < baba> seems there is "cvs" dir in http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/fink/dists/
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23:07 < clepple> well /sw/fink/dists is a symlink on my machine... not sure if it'll pick up other directories in that dir
23:07 < clepple> oh wait
23:07 < clepple> 'fink selfupdate' uses -P, which removes empty directories
23:07 < clepple> that's the closest you can come to removing a directory in CVS
23:08 < clepple> actually, -P might not even create the directory if it sees that it's empty
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23:10 < baba> so, it won't break something soon
23:10 < baba> anyway, i will ask SF to remove the directory
23:10 < clepple> yeah, it has breakage potential, if anyone ever adds to that directory
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23:13 < clepple> heh. here's what not to do: cd /sw/fink; cvs update -d
23:13 < clepple> that'll create a /sw/fink/CVS/CVS directory
23:14 < newmanbe> Fun.
23:14 < clepple> 101 ways to break your fink installation, brought to you by baba and Mike's Hard Lemonade
23:15  * baba runs away
23:16 -!- baba [~baba@YahooBB220041000019.bbtec.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
23:16 < Feanor> i don't think they have mike's hard lemonade in Japan
23:17 < clepple> oh, that was just what inspired me to try cvs update -d
23:18 < clepple> not that I believe baba is always sober, either :-)
23:18 < newmanbe> "prized in export markets in Japan"
23:19 < clepple> Google to the rescue?
23:19 < newmanbe> Oops.
23:19 < newmanbe> It was talking about Icewine.
23:19 < newmanbe> But that was in the article too.
23:19 -!- jerwin [~jeremy@66-44-55-108.s362.tnt1.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #fink
23:19 < clepple> mmm icewine
23:21 < jerwin> is that a beverage, or an software package?
23:21 < newmanbe> A beverage.
23:21 < clepple> wine produced from grapes right after the first frost sets in, or something
23:22 < clepple> mother nature doesn't always play along just right for a good batch of eiswein
23:22 < jerwin> easy to forge.
23:26 < clepple> well there still seems to be a decent market for the "real" stuff
23:26 < clepple> (not to say that I could taste the difference)
23:28 < jerwin> and, by you own admission, a market for the pseudo eiswein.
23:28 < jerwin> apparently, it involves the use of a flash freezer
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--- Log closed Sat May 21 00:00:32 2005