--- Log opened Mon Jun 13 00:00:05 2005
00:23 < rudy> hello statico
00:23  * rudy kicks ian in the dp
00:23 < statico> hi
00:24 < rudy> the rest of the elves miss you, statico
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01:34 < charles_> fink
01:34 < charles_> good software
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01:49 < cirdan> heh
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07:39 < linuxmaniac> hi pogma ;)
07:39 < linuxmaniac> ji chris01 !!
07:39 < chris01> hi linuxmaniac
07:40 < linuxmaniac> did you see the last version of rdesktop.info ??
07:40 < linuxmaniac> http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=1199003&group_id=17203&atid=414256
07:40 < linuxmaniac> I have no news from you...
07:40 < chris01> linuxmaniac: i think i did. I just don't have enough time to devote to fink at the moment. 
07:41 < chris01> linuxmaniac: i am really sorry about that.
07:41 < linuxmaniac> ok... no worry
07:41 < linuxmaniac> we all have work to do
07:42 < linuxmaniac> just yesterday pogma uploaded the other package I made
07:42 < linuxmaniac> vtun
07:42 < linuxmaniac> thanks pogma
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08:42 < pogma> baba: how's it going?
08:49 < baba> not too bad, and you?
08:49 < baba> we need an English teacher. u interested in coming to Kyoto?
08:49 < pogma> how much?
08:49 < baba> how much do you want?
08:50 < pogma> heh, 6 million yen per annum
08:50 < pogma> at a minimum
08:50 < baba> naa just one day :p
08:51 < pogma> what on earth do you need an english teacher for one day for?
08:51 < pogma> you can do it
08:52 < baba> at work, my colleagues need to be trained cos we have more and more ppl from overseas
08:53 < baba> i mean guests
08:53 < pogma> and they want lessons once a week?
08:54 < pogma> probably cost your company something in the region of 50,000yen a month
08:54 < pogma> but I am not interested, no :)
08:55 < baba> ok
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08:58 < pogma> baba: did you see fingolfin's message on -devel about include?
08:59 < pogma> hello akh_on_tiger :)
08:59 < akh_on_tiger> hi
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09:02 < baba> hi akh
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09:16  * akh tries to make a bootable removable Panther HD.
09:17 < baba> FIrewire?
09:18 < akh> Yup.
09:19 < GodFarmer> Hi, I installed 0.8.0 binary, and I was wondering why most crypto packages are missing although they are mentioned in the packages section
09:19 < GodFarmer> (e.g. wget-ssl)
09:21 < baba> maybe u need to selfupdate?
09:21 < akh> or at least 'apt-get update'
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09:22 < baba> akh: all the firewire hd should be bootable, aren't they?
09:22 < GodFarmer> I did apt-get update. But they are nog mentioned in the repo: http://bindist.finkmirrors.net/bindist/dists/10.4-transitional/release/crypto/binary-darwin-powerpc/
09:24 < baba> pogma: i read the email. but the problem is something different, i think
09:26 < akh> baba:  Yeah--I'm just trying to get a working system folder on it.
09:27 < baba> akh: how do you think about Fingolfin's message about php include?
09:27 < akh> I found it confusing, initially.
09:28 < akh> GodFarmer: I can confirm this.  That seems very wrong.
09:30 -!- You're now known as RangerRick
09:30 < baba> me too, i cannot apt-get install wget-ssl
09:30 < pogma> GodFarmer: because they are license: restrictive
09:30 < akh> baba:  But if Fingolfin's solution solves the problem, I'm OK with it.
09:30 < pogma> GodFarmer: because they are GPL and link to libssl.
09:30 < akh> pogma:  Ah, yes, forgot about that.  Why are they still in the PDB in the bindist section, then.
09:30 < pogma> GodFarmer: because someone complained that this was a GPL violation
09:31 < pogma> akh: pdb is wrong
09:31 < akh> Oh, they got removed after the binist was made?
09:31 < akh> bindist
09:31 < GodFarmer> pogma: since they link against non-GPL software nobody can distribute them in binary form?
09:31 < akh> Any way to fix the PDB so as not to mislead folks?
09:32 < pogma> no, afaik, pdb lists all packages even restrictive ones in fink stable when the bindist was tagged
09:32 < akh> So we need to tag up a new one, then?
09:33 < pogma> GodFarmer: right, binary redistribution for us is not allowed at the moment, because we do not use the libssl installed but apple, it is all a big ugly bag of total crap that people would rather avoid, I think
09:33 < pogma> s/but/by
09:34 < pogma> GodFarmer: linking GPL'ed software to libssl installed by the OS vendor and redistributing that is allowed, but fink has always insisted on it's own libssl
09:34 < pogma> GodFarmer: and undoing that will take a while
09:34 < pogma> like years :(
09:34 < GodFarmer> pogma: libssl is not openssl?
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09:35 < pogma> libssl is openssl
09:36 < GodFarmer> pogma: why do other open source distributions not have this problem?
09:36 < RangerRick> so linking against the os's ssl makes it OK?
09:37 < GodFarmer> pogma: e.g. debian distributes wget linked against openssl if I'm not mistaken
09:38 < pogma> GodFarmer: debian is an OS
09:38 < pogma> RangerRick: As far as I understood the thread on the mailing list, yes
09:38 < RangerRick> hrm, ok
09:38  * RangerRick can easily make kde link against that one  :)
09:39 < bbraun> dude, bad juju territory
09:39 < GodFarmer> pogma: can I find the thread in the archives somewhere?
09:40 < akh> Sure.  It's available via gmane.
09:40 < pogma> GodFarmer: subject: the gpl and openssl
09:41 < GodFarmer> thx
09:41  * pogma looks at thread and is proud of his total lack of participation
09:42  * baba kicks pogma in the thread
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09:44 < linuxmaniac> hi pogma 
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09:47 < pogma> hi linuxmaniac 
09:50 < cirdan> heh
09:50 < cirdan> moirning all
09:56 < baba> evening cirdan 
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10:03 < pogma> does someone have /sw/bin/install?
10:04  * pogma wonders what package it is in
10:04 < baba> not me
10:04 < bbraun> not me
10:04 < baba> u need something to trace what installs what
10:04 < pogma> nah, just looking at a package submission
10:05 < pogma> baba: yes, clef was working on something, but don't know where it went
10:05 < baba> ah ok, then
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10:20 < pogma> RangerRick: you subscribed to fink-announce?
10:21 < pogma> crap, the release was not announced on fink-announce!
10:21 < pogma> grr
10:22 < pogma> none of the releases since 0.5a have been
10:22 < pogma> that's just strange
10:22 < pogma> oh, no 0.71 was there
10:23 < baba> lol
10:23 < baba> thought it was dmalloc's task
10:23 < pogma> it *was*
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10:33 < cirdan> heh
10:37 < newmanbe> cirdan: You didn't have to go anywhere with your gf; Melian is right here. :-p
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10:58 < akh_afk> fg
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10:58 < akh> oops
10:58 < akh> nm
10:59 < pogma> chris01: I have the strange feeling that I said I'd do something that you asked and have forgotten
10:59 < akh> pogma:  Mondays are OK, too, right?
10:59 < akh> (according to dmalloc for effective announcements)
10:59 < pogma> akh: Mondays are Ok, I think
11:00 < pogma> akh: want to post to fink-announce?
11:00 < akh> Sure.  I'll just cut and paste from the prior version.
11:00 < pogma> akh: please do so
11:01 < pogma> I added a news item to the sourceforge project page
11:01 < chris01> pogma: hi
11:01 < pogma> chris01: so what have I forgotten?
11:02 < chris01> pogma: i did ask you to update db43, but you already did.
11:02 < chris01> pogma: So, I am not sure...
11:02 < pogma> okay, maybe this feeling of having forgotten something important will go away :)
11:03 < RangerRick> it will eventually  :)
11:04 < chris01> :)
11:04 < chris01> pogma: ah... now I remember.
11:05 < chris01> pogma: Fix the dependency engine of fink.
11:05 < chris01> ;)
11:05 < pogma> oh, no, that is on RangerRick's todo list
11:06 < chris01> ah. ok.
11:06 < RangerRick> haha
11:06 < chris01> Something else, more serious:
11:06 < chris01> this build-as-nobody thing: What if I need to change the permissions of some installed directory?
11:07 < chris01> libapache2-ssl-mod-svn needs to set /sw/var/svn to group www
11:07 < RangerRick> put it in PostInstScript
11:07 < chris01> How can this be done in a build-as-nobody safe way?
11:07 < chris01> RangerRick: ah... so easy.
11:08 < akh> Yup--you're not _installing_ as nobody.
11:08 < chris01> right.
11:08 < pogma> chris01: On the other hand, --build-as-nobody has had little discussion
11:08 < pogma> chris01: your opinions are welcome :)
11:09 < RangerRick> :)
11:11 < chris01> Wouldn't it be nice to have a UserGroup field for info files?
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11:32  * akh works on improving the "Special update instructions" document, since it appears to be the reference for all source-based updates for some reason.
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11:54 < lisppaste> akh pasted "-announce message" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/9066
11:55 < akh> Any opinions (from those who are still awake)?
11:56 < RangerRick> akh: sounds great to me
11:56 < chris01> akh: "is please to" -> "is pleased to"
11:57 < akh> chris01: fixed
11:57 < akh> Wow.  New error.
11:58 < akh> I couldn't connect to Sourceforge CVS from my shell account.
12:00 < chris01> akh: i would remove the "." after http://fink.sourceforge.net/download/upgrade.php.
12:00 < chris01> etc.
12:00 < chris01> otherwise i think it is fine.
12:01 < lane> sorry to interrupt... I just have a quick question. I have Apple's X11 installed on 10.3, with fink 0.7.3. Is the proper corresponding fink virtual package "x11" and "x11-dev"?
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12:02 < akh> chris01: Sure.
12:03 < akh> lane:  system-xfree86, system-xfree86-shlibs, system-xfree86-dev are the true virtual packages.
12:03 < akh> x11, x11-shlibs, and x11-dev are provided functionalities.
12:03 < akh> (of those three packages, respectively)
12:04 < lane> akh: thanks. I tried installing the system-xfree86 4packages, but it says "No packages to install"
12:06 < lane> I ran apt-get update - is there something more I need to do?
12:06 < baba> lane: it's a FAQ, http://fink.sourceforge.net/faq/comp-packages.php#cant-install-xfree
12:06 < lane> baba: thanks
12:07 < baba> virtual packages are not intuitive
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12:08 < lane> baba: I don't think that's my problem. I'm not trying to install xfree86. I want to keep Apple X11.
12:08 < baba> lane: if u install both X11User and X11SDK from CD/DVD, that would be fine
12:09 < baba> u probably haven't installed SDK?
12:09 < lane> that's possible
12:09 < lane> I know I have the Apple X11 installed, but I might not have the sdk
12:09 < lane> I'll check
12:10 < baba> when you install Developer Tools, make sure you custom install with X11SDK
12:11 < lane> hmm
12:11 < lane> but I should be able to install the regular system-xfree86 package without the X11 SDK installed, right?
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12:13 < baba> nope
12:14 < RangerRick> yes
12:14 < RangerRick> just not system-xfree86-dev
12:14 < RangerRick> well, you don't "install" system-xfree86
12:14 < RangerRick> it magically appears if you have the right stuff installed
12:14 < lane> hmm
12:14 < RangerRick> if you install apple x11, you get system-xfree86 automatically
12:14 < baba> well, that will confuse lane
12:14 < RangerRick> baba: no less confusing than trying to "install" system-xfree86 and it doesn't work  :)
12:15 < baba> u cannot install by fink install or apt-get install
12:15 < RangerRick> when you install apple's x11, system-xfree86 will show as available in fink
12:15 < lane> I have Apple's X11 installed. I had an earlier version of fink installed, but I removed it, then installed 0.7.3.
12:15 < baba> yeah right. that makes sense
12:15 < akh> ? 0.7.3?
12:15 < RangerRick> lane: what is the actual problem you're having
12:15 < RangerRick> people don't install system-xfree86 just for the sake of having it
12:15 < baba> Fink 0.7.3?
12:16 < RangerRick> are you trying to build something and it's trying to install xfree86?
12:16 < lane> RangerRick: I was going to try compiling part of KDE
12:16 < lane> yes
12:16 < RangerRick> then you need the x11 SDK
12:16 < lane> ok
12:16 < akh> compile => SDK
12:16 < lane> and to do that I need to reinstall the Apple developer tools with the x11 sdk selected?
12:16 < akh> No.  
12:16 < lane> I have the dev tools installed
12:17 < baba> no yes yes no
12:17 < lane> &)-
12:17 < akh> Well, actually you can run the installer again, but if you select Custom, you can select the X11 SDK and only it will be installed.
12:19 < lane> or just install X11SDK.pkg?
12:19 < lane> :)
12:19 < baba> i think so
12:19 < lane> trying now
12:26 < akh> hmmm...can't make a FAT32 disk bootable?
12:26 < akh> That'd be a problem. 
12:26 < akh> (thought I reformatted it)
12:27 < runelind> hey finkers
12:28 < akh> hey
12:28  * akh still thinks that sounds vaguely like an obscenity.
12:28 < runelind> it is supposed to :)
12:30 < akh> OK.
12:30 < lane> RangerRick, baba: that was it. I installed the X11 SDK pkg and it does'n complain now
12:33 < baba> akh: no u cannot
12:34  * akh didn't realize it was still FAT32.  ;-)
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12:36 < lane> I'm pretty sure this is an FAQ, but I can't find it in the docs... I've got XCode 1.5, and I'm getting a warning "You are using a version of gcc which is known to produce incorrect output from C++ under certain circumstances." Do I need a different version of XCode?
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12:41 < lane> never mind... I got it
12:41 < cirdan> lane: november xcode update
12:41 < cirdan> :-p
12:41 < runelind> anyone use Carbon Clone Copy in Tiger?
12:41 < lane> cirdan: thanks
12:41 < lane> :)
12:41 < runelind> I'm nervous about it :P
12:42 < cirdan> runelind: just use ditto
12:42 < cirdan> and actuaclly, cp is supposed to do resource forks now
12:42 < cirdan> CCC is a gui for ditto and bless :-)
12:42  * akh wondered about that.
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12:49 < cirdan> yeah, apple hasn't documented it anywhere, butsome commands, rsync, cpp, mv, ditto, not sure what else all now respect resource forks
12:49 < cirdan> hopefully the code will get upstream too...
12:49  * cirdan wants resource aware coreutils :-D
12:52 < runelind> cirdan: I'll look into ditto and bless
12:53 < cirdan> bless is only to make the partition bootable
12:54 < cirdan> ditto is kinda weird, it copies the contents of the 1st arg, not the whole arg, so if you dito foo/ /bar, you'll get bar/baz bar/bin, not /bar/foo
12:54 < runelind> found this http://www.bombich.com/mactips/image.html
12:56 < runelind> which should work pretty well
12:57 < runelind> or I could just use CCC running with sudo privs
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13:09 < lane> how smart is the fink -b flag? I'd like to install KDE 3.4, using the binary prereqs where they're available. If I do something like this: "sudo fink -b install kdelibs3", will fink try to install the KDE 3.1 libs that are available in bindist?
13:10 < newmanbe> Hmm, /me goes too see what -b is.
13:10 < newmanbe> It would probably use 3.1.
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13:12 < RangerRick> no, it would not
13:13 < newmanbe> It would not?
13:13 < RangerRick> -b only pulls a binary if it matches the version of the source package you're trying to install
13:13 < RangerRick> there is nothing in fink that does "accept an old version if it still matches the dependencies, and grab that binary"
13:13 < newmanbe> Ah, yes, the paragraph right below it in the man page.
13:13 < RangerRick> currently it's, "I want kdelibs3, kdelibs3 is version 3.4.1, check for kdelibs3 version 3.4.1 in the bindist before building"
13:14 < lane> ok - so if I want the "accept an old version if it still matches the dependencies, and grab that binary" behavior, I'd have to manually look thru the deps and do an apt-get on the binaries I want
13:14 < TheSin> I think you can do fink -b install kdelibs3-3.1-10
13:14 < TheSin> or something like that
13:14 < TheSin> at least you used to beable to lik ewith fink 0.17 :D
13:15 < RangerRick> yes
13:15 < RangerRick> but at that point, you might as well do "sudo apt-get install kdelibs3"  :)
13:15 < TheSin> totally
13:15 < lane> RangerRick: except that I want KDE 3.4 :)
13:15 < RangerRick> lane: there are no binaries for it yet  ;)
13:15 < lane> I know
13:15 < RangerRick> but you know that  ;)
13:15  * lane sighs
13:16 < TheSin> anyone know what happened to finkbot?
13:16 < lane> I was just trying to avoid compiling everything, since that takes forever
13:17 < newmanbe> TheSin: I think Feanor ran that.
13:17 < TheSin> rand did
13:18 < TheSin> but it just disappeared and hasn't been around for ever
13:19 < newmanbe> Letter writing campaign!
13:19 < newmanbe> What's rand's home address. :)
13:20 < Feanor> i only run megahal
13:21 < newmanbe> That's probably why I got mixed up.
13:22 -!- drm [~drm@user-152-3-152-20.wireless.duke.edu] has joined #fink
13:23 < newmanbe> We need to get them all working with Jabber so we can move this! :)
13:25 < TheSin> mmm jabber
13:25 < TheSin> hey drm
13:25 < drm> hey thesin
13:25 < TheSin> how goes it?
13:25  * newmanbe is rather lonely in fink@conference.jabber.org.
13:25 < das_> heh
13:26 < cirdan> drm
13:26 < drm> cirdan!
13:26 < cirdan> drm!
13:26 < cirdan> hey thesin
13:26 < drm> what's up with debconf, cirdan?
13:27 < cirdan> umm
13:27 < TheSin> hey cirdan 
13:27 < drm> jfm has offered to fix it for you...
13:27 < cirdan> i think i gotta move my exp to unstable
13:27 < cirdan> i hadn't realized it was borked
13:27 < drm> lots of complaints on the lists, including complaints about maintainers who don't answer email
13:27 -!- regeya [~shane@adsl-sp3-cdale176.micgi.com] has joined #fink
13:27 < drm> is your sf email working?
13:27 < cirdan> yeah, but it gets buried
13:27 < newmanbe> Is your sf.net anything working? :)
13:27  * cirdan is behind on his email
13:27 < drm> ok, np, but... :)
13:27 < TheSin> cirdan, you can't be behind since you filter it through /dev/null
13:27 < cirdan> ssshh!
13:27 < cirdan> forward to bgates@ms.com :-)
13:27 < TheSin> maybe switch it to filter threw /dev/urandom first for a reply then /dev/null :D
13:27 < cirdan> heh
13:27  * cirdan tests
13:27 < TheSin> hehe
13:27 < drm> cirdan: rangerrick came up with a nice strategy: he's got special addresses for his fink maintainer emails, presumably so that they can get sorted to a place where they will be read
13:28 < drm> or not :)
13:28 < TheSin> or use fortune :D
13:28 < cirdan> fortune!
13:28 < cirdan> :-)
13:28 < cirdan> umm
13:28 < TheSin> drm, I use sieve so same diff
13:28 < cirdan> need updated locale-gettext-pm584 and text-iconv-pm581
13:28 < cirdan> !lart 10.3 tree on 10.4
13:28  * Melian steals 10.3 tree on 10.4's mojo
13:29 < TheSin> and mac-glue-pm
13:32 < drm> cirdan: you don't really want a -pm584
13:32 < RangerRick> drm: yes, they get sorted  :)
13:32 < RangerRick> eventually they'll go into my own bugzilla install
13:32 < RangerRick> but if we get all the actual new fink bugtracker working, I cna forward them there instead
13:33 < cirdan> drm that's all that was avail
13:33 < RangerRick> is that "blessed"
13:33 < RangerRick> ?
13:33 < cirdan> erp
13:33 < lane> hmm... this is weird. /sw/bin is in my PATH when I use the Apple Terminal, but it's not when I use xterm
13:33 < RangerRick> lane: not weird, expected  ;)
13:33  * RangerRick points to the faq
13:34 < das_> Heh
13:34 < RangerRick> apple's x11 is stupid and doesn't create a login shell  :P
13:34 < lane> oops
13:34 < cirdan> drm, i have   Depends: locale-gettext-pm581 | locale-gettext-pm584 | text-iconv-pm581
13:34  * das_ points to http://appleintelfaq.com !
13:34 < das_> Another addition to my collection of FAQs.
13:34 < drm> cirdan: but why?
13:34 < cirdan> old
13:34 < drm> das_: did you get to wwdc this year?
13:34 < cirdan> what should i be using, in the 10.3 and 10.4 trees?
13:34 < das_> drm: yes
13:34 < das_> I presented, actually
13:34 < drm> cool!
13:35 < drm> about what?
13:35 < das_> http://datn.wisc.edu/about/
13:35 < drm> cirdan: -pm581 in 10.3, -pm586 in 10.4
13:35 < cirdan> what if the user wants a later perl?
13:36 < drm> ok, you can give them options... 
13:37 < drm> das_: i wish you and your group worked here :/
13:37 < cirdan> heh
13:37 < drm> das_: we had this great cutting-edge academic TV network in North Carolina 10 years ago
13:37 < drm> das_: and we still have the same one :)
13:38 < cirdan> :-)
13:38 < lane> RangerRick: I'm sorry, I can't find the item in the FAQ. I have my .profile set up. what else do I need to get the PATH right in xterm?
13:39 < das_> drm: heh!
13:39 < cirdan> drm, just committed the working debconf
13:39 < cirdan> could u add it to 10.4 tree?
13:39 < cirdan> i dont even have one checked out
13:39 < cirdan> :-)
13:40 < drm> ok
13:40 < cirdan> i guess it is time to change trees :-)
13:40 < drm> grumble grumble
13:40 < cirdan> also need to change the perl mods for 01.4
13:40 -!- msachs [~msachs@A17-201-20-233.apple.com] has joined #fink
13:40 < cirdan> i was holding out for the 10.4 gcc4 tree ;-)
13:41 < msachs> 'morning, cirdan
13:41 < cirdan> afternoon
13:41 < RangerRick> lane: I guess it's only kind of in the faq: http://fink.sourceforge.net/faq/usage-general.php?phpLang=en#apple-x11-applications-menu
13:42 < RangerRick> lane: see http://fink.sourceforge.net/doc/x11/run-xfree86.php?phpLang=en#xinitrc
13:42 < drm> cirdan: that will be at least another month, probably more
13:43 < cirdan> yeah
13:43 < cirdan> i juast havent needed to build anything
13:44 -!- baba [~baba@YahooBB220041001026.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
13:44 < lane> RangerRick: I did try that. But when I create a .xinitrc and put the source line, X silently fails
13:44 < drm> RangerRick: you probably already know that postgresql80 doesn't compile with gcc-4.0 ... and i'm assuming that it's being worked on upstream... do you know anything about the timing of that?
13:46 < akh> lane:  Did you put anything after the source line?
13:46 < lane> nope
13:46 < akh> That's why.
13:47 < akh> You have to call a window manager.
13:48 < lane> what wm can I use before I install KDE?
13:48 < runelind> quartz wm
13:48 < RangerRick> lane: you have to have other lines besides just a source
13:48 < drm> cool... Safari on a Nokia
13:49 < runelind> time for lunch
13:49 < akh> !xinitrc
13:49 < RangerRick> the only command it runs is source, it finishes, it exits successfully  :)
13:49 < Melian> [xinitrc] http://fink.sourceforge.net/doc/x11/run-xfree86.php#xinitrc
13:49 < RangerRick> (which it discusses there ;)
13:49 < runelind> I'll try the carbon clone copy stuff over lunch
13:49 < runelind> hopefully I won't have to recompile kde :P
13:49 < lane> thank you all for the help, but that link isn't very informative
13:49 < cirdan> runelind: cop the debs
13:49 < lane> it only talks about putting in the source line
13:50 < cirdan> and reinstall it all
13:50 < RangerRick> eh?
13:50 < RangerRick> it talks about copying the xinitrc from /etc
13:50 < RangerRick> and adding stuff to it
13:50 < RangerRick> and gnome-session
13:50 < akh> And tons of examples.
13:50 < RangerRick> and various other things
13:50  * RangerRick suggests reading http://fink.sourceforge.net/doc/x11/run-xfree86.php#xinitrc
13:50 < RangerRick> again
13:50 < RangerRick> ;)
13:51 < lane> ok
13:51 < lane> I was at http://fink.sourceforge.net/doc/x11/run-xfree86.php?phpLang=en#xinitrc
13:51 < lane> oops
13:51 < lane> here http://fink.sourceforge.net/faq/usage-general.php?#xinitrc
13:51 < lane> :}
13:51 < RangerRick> same thing
13:51 < RangerRick> ah
13:51 < RangerRick> yeah, that really should point to the other one, I suppose
13:51 < lane> yeah - this is better
13:53 < akh> ?  I don't see any such entry.
13:54 < lane> much better - that works now
13:54 < akh> The only one that said to use . /sw/bin/init.sh was for the X11 Application menu.
13:54 -!- linuxmaniac [~maniac@84-120-48-49.onocable.ono.com] has quit ["Adios a todos"]
13:57 -!- drm [~drm@user-152-3-152-20.wireless.duke.edu] has quit ["Leaving"]
14:11 < msachs> Hey pogma
14:11 < cirdan> hmm
14:11 < cirdan> hungry
14:12 < akh> msachs: I kind of doubt he's awake.
14:12 < msachs> Go eat something?
14:12 < msachs> akh: You appear to be correct.
14:14 < Feanor> it's 3:22 am japan time
14:16 -!- miga [~miga@easyconnect2121138-139.clients.easynet.fr] has joined #fink
14:16 < miga> Hello everybody.
14:16 < msachs> hey miga
14:17 < miga> Hi msachs. Thanks for the reply, I've just received it.
14:17 < msachs> sancho is being slow today, so the upload may take a while
14:18 < miga> That's not a problem, it can wait till tomorrow, as far as I'm concerned (here it's 8:25 pm).
14:18 < miga> Would someone interesting in testing evolution 1.4.8 on 10.4-transitional unstable?
14:19 < lane> is there an equivalent command in fink or apt to "rpm -qif filename"?
14:19 < lane> it tells you what package a particular file belongs to
14:19 < akh> dpkg -S filename
14:19 < miga> I've put a new info version in experimental/michga one hour ago. It needs tester(s) before it goes in unstable.
14:20 < cirdan> lane: or install dlocate
14:20 < lane> thanks
14:20 < akh> miga I would, but it's going to take me a week to build all of the dependencies.
14:20 < akh> build -> update for 10.4
14:21 < miga> akh do you have mozilla installed, per chance?
14:21 < newmanbe> epiphany had never started for me in the past.
14:21 < newmanbe> Hmm, that is a lot of depends.
14:21 < akh> miga:  yes
14:21 < miga> It starts now, and works, I've tested all functionalities, except printing as my printer is too old.
14:22 < miga> akh, so that's not a big deal, you have almost all dependencies already installed.
14:22 < akh> No--I just updated to Tiger.
14:23 < miga> you mean, you have not them for Tiger, just for Panther?
14:23 < akh> Right.
14:23 < akh> I'll try it in any case, but somebody else will probably give you feedback before I do.
14:23 < miga> I'm not sure the version I've put is good for Panther, it maybe that some dependencies have too high version numbers.
14:24 < akh> I'll try on TIger.
14:24 < miga> akh thanks, not sure someone gives me any feedback.
14:24 < akh> But you may move it into unstable before I get to it.  ;-)
14:24 < miga> akh, I'm not so prone to put it in unstable without anybody but me testing it.
14:25 < miga> newmanbe, would you like to test it too?
14:25 < akh> Sure.
14:25 < akh> I'll even interrupt my KDE upgrade for it.
14:25 < newmanbe> I don't use GNOME, but I could try.
14:26 < miga> it does not use bundle-gnome, just nautilus.
14:26 < miga> That is I made so that it can work without installing bundle-gnome.
14:27 < akh> miga:  I don't see an evolution.info file anywhere.
14:28 < miga> that's very kind of you, akh.
14:28 < akh> Unless you meant epiphany.
14:28 < miga> here: <http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/fink/experimental/michga/>
14:28 < akh> Either way.
14:28 < miga> yes, I mean epiphany, sorry.
14:29 < miga> It does not require the patch file in unstable, just this info file.
14:29 < newmanbe> Oops, I have to update my experiment tree and cp it.
14:29 < miga> I can paste it, lisppaste: url?
14:30 < miga> I can paste it, lisppaste:url?
14:30 < miga> where is lisppaste?
14:30 < akh> lisppaste: URL ?
14:30 < lisppaste> To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/fink and enter your paste.
14:30 < akh> Apparently it doesn't like leading text.
14:31 < lisppaste> michga pasted "epiphany info file" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/9075
14:31 < miga> akh, thanks. I've pasted it.
14:32 < akh> I already checked it out and have started building the deps.
14:33 < miga> woah, that's fast.
14:33 < akh> Some of them were even in the bindist.
14:33  * akh did the checkout first and then asked.
14:33 < akh> ;-)
14:33  * newmanbe commands the powers that be to make a bindist of unstable.
14:33 < miga> No, but they cannot ssl ones
14:34  * akh commands newmanbe to provide a server for non-ssl unstable binaries.
14:36 < newmanbe> I could get a server easily enough, then I have to get a static IP.
14:37 < miga> I've picked all non ssl dependencies.
14:38 < miga> I mean for compiling epiphany, when it asks for ssl or non ssl ones.
14:38  * newmanbe commands the powers that be in Washington D.C to repel the stupid export restrictions on encryption.
14:38  * newmanbe isn't so sure he likes using non-ssl.
14:39 < miga> I second that, though I'm absolutely not concerned with it.
14:39 < miga> newmanbe, you have no choice on 10.4; they simply do not work.
14:39  * newmanbe watches as he uses not-10.4.
14:39 < newmanbe> That reminds me, I need to ungzip the Darwin 8 ISO.
14:39 < newmanbe> !lart Samba
14:39  * Melian brandishes Excalibur! "With this sword, I vanquish thee, Samba!" and lops off Samba's head
14:44 < runelind> go CCC go
14:44  * newmanbe wonders if the gunzip-ing over Samba is actually working.
14:44 < runelind> hopefully it will work :)
14:47 < akh> CCC?  Why are you enouraging the Civilian Conservation Corps?
14:47 < akh> encouraging
14:47 < akh> ;-)
14:47 < runelind> carbon clone copy :)
14:47  * akh is using Retrospect Express right now.
14:47 < akh> (It came with my drive, so no additional $ was required)
14:48 < newmanbe> Hmm, lost contact with the server.
14:48 < newmanbe> That's odd 'cause the computer is always supposed to be on, otherwise its hard drive doesn't spin up.
14:48 < newmanbe> And a hard drive that doesn't spin up doesn't do any good.
14:48 < akh> Yup.
14:49 < newmanbe> !lart Dell customer support
14:49  * Melian brandishes Excalibur! "With this sword, I vanquish thee, Dell customer support!" and lops off Dell customer support's head
14:49 < akh> Melian has an Excalibur obsession today.
14:49 < Melian> parse error: dunno what the heck you're talking about, akh
14:49 < akh> nm
14:50  * akh is not about to argue with a bot.  :-)
14:50 < runelind> pretty soon we'll all be calling Dell Customer support about our macs :P
14:50 < akh> Nah--Apple isn't going to release their hardware to 3rd-party vendors.
14:50 < akh> (been there, done that)
14:51 < akh> Although, that whole iPod thing...
14:51  * akh reconsiders
14:51 < newmanbe> Think Different! Think Dell!
14:51 < akh> That'd be different, all right.
14:51 < runelind> the U2 ipod was clearly a sign that they're wanting to go to the black dell boxes :P
14:52 < akh> Well, the old Macs were supposed to be "black boxes"--users weren't to know about all of the grubby innards.
14:52 < runelind> Copying Developer...
14:52 < runelind> I didn't know I had a developer sitting inside my mac!
14:53 < runelind> that must be why the boxes are so expensive
14:53 < akh> Clearly not an OpenSource developer.  ;-)
14:53 < newmanbe> akh: 
14:53 < newmanbe> akh: The dusty insides that can't be opened?
14:53 < newmanbe> !lart lag
14:53  * Melian shoots lag in his sleep
14:53 < akh> newmanbe: At least not without voiding the warranty.
14:54 < akh> Those were the days.
14:54 < newmanbe> Hmm, never needed to use the warranty.
14:54 < newmanbe> Most of the computers probably still work.
14:54 < akh> All your expansion was SCSI and you liked it.
14:54 < newmanbe> SCSI, the old memories.
14:54 < newmanbe> I remeber getting an external 2GB SCSI hard drive.
14:55 < akh> That's not even big enough for MP3s.
14:55 < akh> ;-)
14:55 < newmanbe> MP3?
14:55  * newmanbe uses AAC and OGG.
14:55 < akh> Or .m4a files.  whatever
14:55 < newmanbe> Once, I find the rest of those CDs, all OGG.
14:56 < akh> They're all about the same size.
14:56 < Feanor> ogg is the file format, vorbis is the compression
14:56 < newmanbe> It has a cooler name.
14:56 < newmanbe> Advanced Audio Codec versus Ogg Vorbis
14:56 < Feanor> ogg is a really, really bad container format
14:56 < newmanbe> Ogg Vorbis has a cooler name, ergo it wins.
14:57 < runelind> hrm, too many steps using ditto
14:57 < runelind> can't you just ditto -rsrcFork / /Volumes/destination/ ?
14:57 < das_> no
14:57 < das_> nooooooo
14:57 < das_> not at all
14:57 < runelind> heh
14:57 < das_> you can, however, do:
14:57 < akh> There's that horrible recursion thing, isn't there?
14:57 < das_> sudo asr -source / -target /Volumes/"Destination Volume"
14:58 < das_> akh, yes, but 'asr' handles it
14:58 < akh> Cool.
14:58 < das_> ditto doesn't :p
14:59 < runelind> asr is going
14:59 < runelind> after this I just bless the new drive?
14:59 < runelind> or select it as the startup disk?
15:00 < das_> you don't even need to bless it
15:00 < das_> you can just select it as a startup disk
15:00 < akh> Nice.
15:00 < runelind> bling bling
15:00  * runelind ^5's das_ 
15:00 < das_> asr is elite
15:00 < das_> I use asr for all my cloning/backups/etc
15:01 < runelind> hack the planet
15:01 < akh> hmmm...Mail.app seems much more stable with GrowlMail turned off.
15:01 < runelind> they're trashing the flow of data
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15:04 < runelind> das_: in the ditto instructions I'm following it talks about recreating the symbolic links, do I have to do that here as well?
15:04 < runelind> or is asr doubly-1337
15:05 < das_> no, asr doesm everything
15:05 < das_> -m
15:05 < das_> it's a perfectly complete clone when done
15:05 < das_> ready to use
15:05 < runelind> asr is 2674
15:05 < das_> heh
15:05 < das_> yes
15:09 < akh> miga: I got ssl-related errors.
15:09 < akh> Something must have a linkage.
15:09 < cirdan> runelind: no, 1337^1337!
15:10 < miga> which ones?
15:10 < cirdan> now that'[s a big number :-)
15:10 < newmanbe> Fink^Fink.
15:10 < newmanbe> That must be even bigger. :-p
15:10 < miga> maybe db42?
15:10 < cirdan> lim x-> inf. fink/x
15:10 < cirdan> :-p
15:11 < lisppaste> akh pasted "epiphany" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/9076
15:11 < msachs> Does anyone know what to do about link errors due to symbols defined in both libccc.a and libgcc_s.dylib while building a dylib?  It works with two-level namespaces, but libtool wants -flat_namespace.
15:11 < miga> That's the infamous python thing.
15:11  * akh hasn't updated python yet.
15:12 < miga> It occurs when python is installed beforehand, but not when python is installed afterhand
15:12 < akh> OK.
15:12 < akh> So I can just rebuild python24?
15:12 < miga> I don't know how to work around it.
15:13 < akh> Does epiphany _need_ python?  
15:13 < miga> no, remove python, then install evolution, then put python again, that works.
15:13 < akh> BuildConflict, then.
15:13 < miga> Not directly, but one of the dependancy needs it.
15:14 < miga> No, you cannot otherwise you'll impede a lot of stuff to be compiled.
15:14 < akh> ah.
15:15 < miga> It occurs on any package as soon as you install python.
15:16 < akh> Ouch.
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15:32 < miga> akh which python do you have?
15:33 < akh> 2.3 and 2.4, both.
15:34 < miga> maybe you can try to remove 2.3. I have only python, python24, python24-shlibs, python24-socket.
15:34 < akh> Sounds OK.
15:34 < miga> revison number 1:2.4.1-1
15:34 < miga> I currently rebuilding to see if it fails or not, now that python24 is installed.
15:36 < miga> akh, I don't remember, the error is at run time or compile time?
15:36 < akh> runtime
15:37 < miga> Ok, I let it compile, then we'll see.
15:38 < miga> The problem is in 10.4, the compiler insists in linking with what is in usr/...
15:38 < akh> Ah.  
15:39 < miga> That's not a bad idea, but for python, there is no socket, so that you need the python in Fink.
15:40 < akh> Nice of it.  :\
15:40 < akh> Yup.
15:41 < miga> OK, it works for me, so maybe I should put a buildconflicts python < 2.4? 
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15:41 < miga> Could you try it without python 2.3?
15:42 < akh> I'm doing that right now--Fink's rebuilding python24 for me.
15:42 < miga> Are you sure you need to rebuild python24?
15:43 < akh> I probably don't, but I don't have a local .deb for it.
15:43 < miga> Oh, ok.
15:43 < akh> It was installed via a binary.
15:43 < akh> fink can't be bargained with.  It can't be reasoned with.  It shows no remorse.  :-)
15:44 < miga> it should though :-)
15:44 < akh> (or was it 'knows no remorse'?  Probably)
15:45 < miga> That's about the same for me :-)
15:52 < akh> heh
16:00 < akh> All right.  Time to go.  miga, I'll send you an email about my results.
16:00 < miga> ok, thanks akh.
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16:59 < runelind> das_: asr worked a treat
16:59 < runelind> now I can finally free up that firewire drive
17:02 < runelind> Darwin mac.local 8.1.0 Darwin Kernel Version 8.1.0: Tue May 10 18:16:08 PDT 2005 :D
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17:10 < cirdan> heh
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17:19 < runelind> wacko jacko NG on all counts 
17:19 < runelind> white people always get off easy :P
17:22 < cirdan> heh
17:22 < cirdan> only rich ones
17:22 < cirdan> and oj wasnt whhite
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18:00 -!- You're now known as RangerAway
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18:21 < dmacks> Is drm Gone For A While yet?
18:21 < newmanbe> !whenwillwesee drm
18:22 < msachs> sh# drm install crystal-ball
18:22 < dmacks> cirdan: Failed: Can't resolve dependency "po-debconf" for package "debconf-1.4.42-2" (no matching packages/versions found
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18:40 < pogma> msachs: hi
18:41 < dmacks> !seen akh
18:41 < Melian> akh <~akhansen@ldx4.psfc.mit.edu> was last seen on IRC in channel #fink, 2h 40m 41s ago, saying: 'All right.  Time to go.  miga, I'll send you an email about my results.'.
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18:41 < msachs> hey pogma
18:41 < msachs> Sorry I ran off like that on Friday.
18:41 < pogma> heh, no worries
18:41 < msachs> I've sent off a ping about the cctools-590 sources.
18:43 < pogma> thanks
18:45 < msachs> And I'm CC'd on that radar you were asking about, don't think there's been any activity on it yet, but people should have more time this week now that the conference is over.
18:46 < pogma> yeah, I also have to persuade Nick that the DYLD_FALLBACK_LIBRARY_PATH bug is worth fixing, he seems to think it is low-priority :)
18:46 < msachs> 4139432?
18:47 < pogma> hold on
18:47 < pogma> yeah
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18:48 < msachs> Oh, so you've been talking to him outside radar?
18:48 < pogma> yeah
18:49 < msachs> Ah, that's why I haven't seen activity in the radar, then :)
18:51 < pogma> didn't realize that you had added yourself to it
18:52 < msachs> yep
18:52 < pogma> I have the feeling that nick has lots of bugs and wants to avoid having to go through the preocess of putting things up for software update etc
18:53 < msachs> I think he just has lots of bugs :)
18:54 < dmacks> pogma: ...which asymptotically approaches "every byte in the whole .pkg is wrong" ==> "screw you guys, I quit!"
18:55 < msachs> Maybe he's learned his lesson about volunteering to rewrite dyld ;)
18:55 < dmacks> heh
18:57 < pogma> tea-party with three year old time, bbl
18:57 < msachs> Enjoy!
18:58 < htodd> msachs: do you know Brett Neely?
18:58 < msachs> htodd: Doesn't ring a bell...
18:58 < htodd> I'm sure there's no more than 14 people at Apple. :)
18:59 < msachs> Yep, and me and SJ have lunch together every Thursday.
18:59 < htodd> :) I think I'd be frightened to ever meet SJ
19:01 < msachs> Haven't met him, but I've seen him around.
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19:29 < aweil> helloo
19:30 < msachs> 'lo aweil 
19:31 < dmacks> howdy aweil
19:31 < aweil> msachs, dmacks.. my nick requires m,a,c,s ;-)
19:32 < dmacks> ha
19:32 < aweil> I'm about to switch to xorg, but it says that another x11 is installed (i had the apple's one), but i (think) i removed it, but it leaved directories /usr/X11R6 and /etc/X11, shoud I remove them manually?
19:34 < dmacks> Deleting those is part of "removing apple's x11".
19:34  * dmacks doesn't know of any *not*-manual way to remove apple's x11.
19:35 < aweil> oh. thanks. I thought it was enough with dropping X11 to trash was the way.. i'm new to mac environm.
19:35 < dmacks> X11.app is the main runnable program, but the /usr and /etc stuff are the runtime shared libraries.
19:37 -!- akh [~akhansen@68-118-244-23.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #fink
19:37 < aweil> :-) oki.. i thought there was possible that there was other way to do it.. thanks :D (i prefered to ask before rm/mv)
19:37 < dmacks> Glad to help:)
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19:38 < dmacks> (There's a Fink FAQ entry about switching x11 formats)
19:39 < aweil> installer suggested me : http://fink.sourceforge.net/faq/usage-packages.php#apple-x11-wants-xfree86
19:40 < aweil> but seems not to be my case and over readed the other items in that and didn't found about it (also it should be on apple's x11 faq, this)
19:46 < dmacks> Ah, it's in the separate Running X11 document that is mentioned in several FAQ entries. In it, section 3.6 is entitled "Replacing X11"
19:47 < dmacks> !lart apple for continually giving .dmg downloads with checksum errors
19:47  * Melian slaps apple around with a large trout for continually giving .dmg downloads with checksum errors
19:47 < dmacks> Wow...melian's gotten a grammar parser!
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19:55 < akh> Someone must have bought her a larger brain.
19:55 < akh> ;-)
20:00 < dmacks> hehe
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20:00 < akh> Cool!  My HD backup on my desktop is nearly done!
20:06 < rudy> dmacks: that's actually a requirement of apple dmgs, that they ship with invalid checksums
20:06 < rudy> specifically the 10.3.9 combo updater 150 mb dmg
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20:07 < aweil> see ya thanks for help!!
20:07 < dmacks> How do I convince Software Update that certain updates have not been installed? Where does it store its status?
20:08 < msachs> My guess would be /Library/Receipts.
20:08 -!- pogma [~peter@p1174-ipad212kobeminato.hyogo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #fink
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20:08 < htodd> I was aabout to say /Library
20:09 < akh> dmacks:  And if removing the file from /Library/Receipts isn't sufficient, there is the option to install the update manually, I believe.
20:09 < dmacks> I removed the receipts and the /Library/Logs logfile, but Software Update still thinks they are still installed.
20:10 < dmacks> I know I can 1) figure out what updates I need (how?), 2) download them from apple (poorly organized site) and 3) use Installer.app; /me craves automation.
20:11 < akh> rm -rf /
20:11 < akh> (excessive)
20:11 < rudy> ssh akh; sudo rm -rf /
20:11 < chdevers> rm -rvf / # don't just remove it, make the scope of the carnage clear
20:12 < akh> rudy: I figured dmacks knew to how to sudo
20:12 < chdevers> sudo nohup rm -rvf /
20:12 < dmacks> Kinda like how one never "just" jumps to light speed, one always has to see the stars become streaks?
20:12 < msachs> dmacks: If you sniff the traffic of the software update client, you can see the XML that the server sends back, IIRC it's legible enough that you can tell what it's checking, it might be looking at version numbers in places other than /Library/Receipts, or might be checking md5sums or something.
20:12 < akh> meh:  stupid _EVP_idea_cbc failures.
20:13 < msachs> But that probably falls into the "more trouble than it's worth" category :)
20:13 < rudy> man, honey roasted peanuts are deadly
20:14 < dmacks> msachs: Yeah. I had some very fundamental framework or somesuch get corrupted, reinstalled the last teeny-version updater to fix it. Now I gotta figure out what security patches and other app updates I over-wrote:)
20:15 < msachs> dmacks: Which framework?  I can search our builders for trains which lay down that file, it'd be in the security update train if it was ever installed by a security update.
20:18 < dmacks> No clue specifically what was broken. Lots of things were crashing just after startup with EXC_BAD_INSTRUCTION and reinstalling those apps didn't help. So I reinstalled the whole 10.3.9 updater and that fixed it.
20:19 < msachs> Hm, if you reinstalled through the updater, I'd assume it would be smart enough to realize that it needs to reinstall any post-10.3.9 security updates which touch files installed by 10.3.9.
20:19 < msachs> Especially if it's not checking /Library/Receipts to determine if the secupd was installed :)
20:21 < dmacks> That's what /me is hoping.
20:23 < dmacks> (Software Update was one of the crashing apps too:)
20:23 < msachs> ha
20:24 < akh> Download Catch22.pkg
20:24 < dmacks> akh: Isn't that one in the new self-supported ".pkg2" format
20:25 < akh> heh
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20:56 < sagefire> Hello all
20:58 < msachs> hey sagefire 
20:58 < sagefire> I have a fink on Darwin question, I was wondering if anyone had time for
20:58 < msachs> Go ahead.
20:59 < sagefire> Does Darwin (without OSX) recognise the airport extreme card in an Aluminum powerbook?
20:59 < msachs> I don't think so.  #opendarwin knows more about that kind of thing, though.
21:00 < sagefire> I was wondering because I logged in as >console and then did startx
21:00 < sagefire> and I was online w/o aqua running
21:01 < akh> sagefire: Your network was already running, though.
21:01 < sagefire> I'll check in over at #opendarwin, but since the linux guys don't have a driver for the extreme, and I discovered that I could use fink to be in kde on this machine
21:01 < sagefire> true
21:02 < sagefire> yeah, thanks for pointing me in the right direction
21:02 < msachs> g'luck
21:03 < msachs> d'oh, just sent out emails to maintainers that look like this:
21:03 < msachs> Your build logs are:
21:03 < msachs>     http://sancho/foo.log
21:03 < msachs>     http://sancho/and bar.log
21:06 < akh> Literally like that?
21:06 < msachs> Well, with URLs which except for the "and bar" bit are correct.
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21:08 < akh> Ah
21:08 < msachs> Which mailing list should I post reports of my QA activities to, fink-devel or fink-core?
21:08 < akh> Probably -devel--more maintainers read that.
21:08 < msachs> k
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21:11 < dmacks> gmane is being slow-as-ballz at getting fink-auto-logs archived:(
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21:20 < dmacks> Do we think debbugs is working well enough that msachs's scripts could just submit there instead of batching by $maintainer and mailing directly?
21:20 < dmacks> (would make it hella easier to figure out what's fixed, who needs help, etc)
21:20 < msachs> dmacks: I'd certainly love to have those things tracked.
21:21 < msachs> I know the SF trackers exist, but I'm not sure how consistently they get used or how to automate with them, but I can figure that out if that'd be the proper way to do this.
21:21 < dmacks> The only thing I know about SF trackers is that they are *not* the way to do this.
21:22  * akh has used reportbug on Fink a fair amount.
21:22 < akh> It seems reliable enough.
21:23 < dmacks> (trackers are good for "anyone" to submit msgs to "certain blessed people", but not to send msgs to "arbitrary people". [the pool of maintainers] is not so-blessed.
21:24 < msachs> It seems to work well enough for Debian.
21:24 < dmacks> Paging cirdan...
21:26 < dmacks> We had a bunch of trouble getting debbugs working for us. I think it's good now, but nobody uses it because it's not been announced as "the way to do stuff" because it's not used often because....
21:26 < dmacks> lather, rinse, repeat
21:28 < dmacks> msachs: It does appear to use just use Receipts/ pkgs.
21:28 < msachs> dmacks: Oh, okay.
21:32 < dmacks> akh: Will the problem of "users causing problems for themselves" go away soon?
21:32 < Clef> i don't autoupload buildlogs let but it certainly could be added
21:32 < Clef> let/yet
21:34 < dmacks> Clef: It might help track down pesky build differences caused by ./configure making wacky decisions (omitting dylibs because some compiler support file was missing, etc).
21:36 < cirdan> dmacks?
21:36 < akh> dmacks:  We have to figure out _all_ of the possible failures and document them.  ;-)
21:37 < dmacks> akh: /me was thinking for a real automated-build system we'd want buildlog, .deb, list of %f installed at instant of building.
21:37 < akh> That'd be better. (and would help to produce what I said)
21:38 < msachs> dmacks, akh: And noticing when installed files change, when a file has a severe change in size, output of "fink validate" on the debs and infos...
21:38 < dmacks> If validate fails, it shouldn't be in the repo:)
21:38 < akh> yup
21:39 < akh> (to both)
21:39 < dmacks> At some point we could have SF CVS refuse to accept commits of validate-failed .info
21:40 < msachs> dmacks: I have validate output from my current run, should I nag people with it?
21:40 < msachs> I don't want to nag too often...
21:40 < msachs> Especially for "your description has lines with more than 72 characters, biatch!"
21:41 < dmacks> We've often fought about how hard to enforce that one.
21:41 < msachs> I think that ideally, the autobuilder would have bugzilla-like control over who gets emails about what.
21:42 < msachs> So you could CC yourself on certain types of mail about a package.
21:42 < msachs> And opt in or out of getting mail about validation failures, "serious" validation failures...
21:42 < dmacks> cirdan: We've been discussing whether debbugs is ready for the big leagues.
21:43 < msachs> I probably won't be implementing something terribly fancy like that for my first iteration of it.  If we push debbugs live, I could have it file a bug for a new validation failure.
21:43 < dmacks> Some night I'm prolly gonna get drunk and go on a Description-trimming spree.
21:44 < msachs> That's how you wind up with your keyboard wrapped around an xterm.
21:45 < msachs> And I don't mean wrap in the text-flowing sense...
21:46 < dmacks> validation-failure rejection is really problematic when we introduce new tests too:(
21:46 < akh> Yeah--no way to grandfather in existing packages there.
21:47 < dmacks> Maybe I should pick up acid..."the xterm like came out of the screen, and was swimming around the keyboard man"
21:48 < dmacks> "I pressed one key and then another, and letters were appearing all different colors, and then I released it as Installer.app"
21:48 < akh> hehe
21:48 < msachs> Well one possible answer to that is that we shouldn't grandfather things.  A new test indicates a new class of failure which we previously weren't detecting.  And in fact, we should run through all the existing packages and make sure they don't fail in that way.  And perhaps we should even pull ones which do.
21:49 < msachs> But treating validation failures that harshly is a pretty big shift from the current practice.
21:50 < akh> Yeah.  However, pulling such a package from the stable tree (only) might suffice.
21:51 < akh> Hmm---actually that would suck, because one would have to pull everything that depends on that package.
21:52 < dmacks> akh: yeah.
21:52 < msachs> Should probably take into account what the failure is.
21:52 < dmacks> Usually it's an easy fix. The difficult thing is deciding whether to tell $maintainer to fix it, or fix it and tell 'im what was fixed.
21:53 < msachs> If it's something that results in packages which are severely broken or have security issues, then we probably should pull from stable.
21:53 < dmacks> Our track record of applying simple fixes to severely-broken important packages is not good:(
21:53 < akh> Nope.
21:58 < dmacks> cirdan: I was also lookin' for you (much earlier) about a broken dep in debconf.
21:59 < cirdan> o
22:00 < msachs> What should I do about a package whose source tarball doesn't have execute bits set on directories?
22:00 < dmacks> Shoot the upstream author.
22:00 < msachs> I'm trying to do find -type d in PatchScript but that fails (with --build-as-nobody) because chdir dies with "getcwd: cannot access parent directory: Permission denied"
22:00 < cirdan> find . -type d chmod +x?
22:01 < cirdan> and send a mailbomb upsream
22:01 < msachs> cirdan: Nope, wants to do getcwd, which fails.  Even tried find %b.
22:01 < cirdan> hrm
22:01 < cirdan> patchscript!
22:01 < msachs> Yeah, that's where I'm doing the find :)
22:02 < msachs> Maybe if I chmod +x %b first
22:02 < dmacks> msachs: What's your $cwd when you ran the fink command?
22:02 < msachs> %p/fink
22:02 < msachs> Ah, yep, chmod +x %b ; find %b -type d -exec chmod +x \{\} \; did it
22:03 < dmacks> Weird...I thought %b was usually owner=root, mod=rwxr-xr-x
22:03 < dmacks> Oh wait, brain-fart...nm
22:04 < msachs> :)
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22:05 < dmacks> Yeah, PatchScript should prolly chmod it on general principles anyway. Otherwise user's gonna get confused when he tries to look in his builddir
22:06 < msachs> The other thing I noticed was that the --build-as-nobody post-build chown -R doesn't appear to be changing the group to admin.
22:07 < newmanbe> The sf.net e-mail sponsorships are really stupid.
22:07 < newmanbe> I think they're scams.
22:07 < dmacks> newmanbe: procmail+perl, and you'll never see them:)
22:08 < newmanbe> Especially the one about going into outer space.
22:08 < dmacks> Maybe it just wants you to 'fink install xplanet'?
22:08 < newmanbe> No, I have that.
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22:10  * newmanbe thinks xplanet might have changed maintainer.
22:10 < newmanbe> I had to update it myself because it was in the bindist but not the CVS/rsync dist.
22:11 < newmanbe> Nope, I still have a newer version.
22:12 < dmacks> msachs: I remember having trouble with handling groups. Should we just chown root.admin?
22:12 < newmanbe> My version is seven months old but newer than that is in Fink.
22:12 < dmacks> (was retaining some grp memberships under sudo or somesuch weirdness)
22:12 < msachs> root:admin
22:12 < msachs> BSD chown doesn't do the .grp syntax.
22:12 < dmacks> Okay fine, we'll use the new-fangled syntax.
22:13 < newmanbe> I suppose I could e-mail the maintainer to see if he is still maintaining.
22:13 < dmacks> newmanbe: Good idea.
22:13 < newmanbe> Do we have a template for that somewhere?
22:13 < dmacks> (perhaps there was a new-version released then pulled due to [some weird breakage]?)
22:13 < msachs> dmacks: I think it's the old-fangled syntax, actually...
22:14  * newmanbe checks CVS.
22:14 < newmanbe> Which probably doesn't go far back enough on news.gmane.org.
22:15 < newmanbe> !mailinglists
22:15 < Melian> i guess mailinglists is http://www.finkproject.org/lists/
22:15 < dmacks> Check the raw cvs
22:17 < dmacks> msachs: When I people give me %f.info files, I tell them "we prefer %n.info now; would you like me to fix?" Not critical, esp for a bulk update like you're handling here...
22:17 < dmacks> but it makes changes much easier to track.
22:17 < msachs> dmacks: Yeah, I know, I'm always tempted to change that when someone asks me to check in a fix, but I don't want to be any more invasive than I have to when touching other people's stuff...
22:18 < msachs> But if the party line is to make that fix as we run across it, I'm happy to, it's a pain for me to cvs add/remove :)
22:19 < newmanbe> Hmm, the not maintaining-maintainer is listed as a member of Fink at sf.net.
22:19 < dmacks> It's up to you, and some maintainers really don't want to change either. I usually note it in tracker submissions, and change it whenever I fix a maintainer=none pkg.
22:20 < dmacks> Maybe I'll do 'em all on my second drinking binge after fixing Desc* lenghts:)
22:20 < newmanbe> Has James Gibbs (jimgibbs) been active lately?
22:21  * msachs needs to buy dmacks some booze...
22:27 < akh> newmanbe: check fink-commits
22:27 < newmanbe> Duh.
22:27 < akh> (by which I mean--'I don't know when he last committed anything')
22:28 < dmacks> I think he's kinda sporadic...when prodded or writes something new, does a handful of commits, then goes into hibernation.
22:28 < newmanbe> Nothing since at least May 5th.
22:29 < dmacks> That's hella better than most maintainers:)
22:30 < newmanbe> Like I said, the version has been out for more than six and a half months.
22:30 < newmanbe> Just package software than has already been end of lifed. :-p
22:31 < dmacks> Yamean like fink-on-10.2?
22:31 < newmanbe> No idea.
22:32 < akh> That's what the message on -announce said.
22:32 < dmacks> On a more serious note, most maintainers don't hover like vultures over upstream release notifications...stuff that they don't heavily use tends to idle until some usre complains.
22:32 < akh> Yup.
22:33  * akh does for xcircuit, but I use it regularly.
22:33 < dmacks> Or perhaps Some Day fink will automatically email maintainers when Source is no longer available, meaning they have a "very" old version.
22:33 < akh> That'd be a good check for "fink vaildate"
22:34  * dmacks doesn't for mathomatic, since it's got a rapid release cycle and I don't use it enough to care about the latestn'greatest features.
22:35 < akh> On the other hand, a source could be gone because the upstream site is evil and has moved it or removed the tarball when they released an update--it's not necessarily that old in such cases.
22:36 < msachs> Still results in a borked package.
22:36 < msachs> Or, unbuildable, at least.
22:36 < akh> That's what the master mirrors are for.
22:37 < akh> Ideally they should just pick up the slack until a new version is out, but in practice...
22:37 < msachs> There are a handful of package which have always failed in my builds because I've never been able to download their sources.
22:37 < dmacks> akh: There are currently several pkgs that are so source-hosed that even finkmirrors can't figure it out:)
22:37 < akh> Ah.
22:37 < akh> That happened with reportbug at one point IIRC.
22:38 < akh> I filed a report via reportbug.  ;-)
22:38 < msachs> And now, I go home.
22:38 < msachs> 'night, all
22:38 < akh> 'night
22:38 -!- msachs [~msachs@A17-201-20-233.apple.com] has quit []
22:39 < newmanbe> Government propaganda!
22:39 < newmanbe> Federal Reserves notes are not legal tender.
22:39 < newmanbe> Bah.
22:40 < akh> You mean like $Bills?
22:40 < newmanbe> Yes.
22:40 < akh> I _knew_ there was a good reason never to have cash.  ;-)
22:42 < dmacks> *someone*'s been watching a few too many American Express travellers' cheques commercials
22:43 < newmanbe> Commercials would involve commercial television and/or radio.
22:45 < dmacks> Or websites making parodies or other humor at their expense:)
22:45 < newmanbe> That too.
22:46 < akh> Heh
22:46 < newmanbe> Can the U.S. Government make humour at its own expense? :) 
22:46 < akh> Sure.
22:47 < newmanbe> It sure does have a lot of web sites.
22:47 < akh> [unrelated] "I've got an error, but I don't want to abuse the list, so I won't post it."
22:48 < dmacks> One the one hand, technically it would be at the taxpayers' expense. But OTOH technically a lot of the stuff they fund is a joke, so....
22:48 < akh> Mmmm....missile defense
22:48 < dmacks> akh: Yeah /me saw that. Was tempted to respond "I've got several different answers for what cuold be causing it, but don't want to abuse the list so I won't post them"
22:48 < akh> "We know it doesn't work, but our enemies don't, so let's spend billions on it!"
22:48 < newmanbe> DarwinPorts/Portage defence. :)
22:49 < dmacks> akh: You talkin' about SDI or Fink?
22:49 < akh> Either way.
22:49 < akh> ;-)
22:49 < akh> billions would buy us a _huge_ server.
22:50 < newmanbe> Someone posted to a fink- list saying they wouldn't post their error there?
22:50 < dmacks> newmanbe: Ayup.
22:50 < newmanbe> Bizarre.
22:50  * akh pointed out that they didn't really give any information other than the name and version of the package that failed.
22:50 < dmacks> PEBKAC is where it all begins.
22:51 < dmacks> Has maintainer=jadestorm been active lately?
22:51 < dmacks> ejabberd is hosed and old.
22:51 < newmanbe> "akh	newmanbe: check fink-commits"
22:51 < newmanbe> Yeah, that hasn't worked for awhile.
22:52 < akh> http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/sysadmin/6692/
22:52 < dmacks> finkmirrors can't even find it.
22:52 < akh> jadestorm had a burst of commits and then went quiet.
22:52 < dmacks> akh: Ha!
22:52 < newmanbe> jabberstudio.org was having some problems.
22:53 < dmacks> md5 mismatch too
22:53 < akh> Ouch
22:53 < newmanbe> What list and subject was the non-posting poster?
22:53 < dmacks> I don't want to pollute the channel with that info.
22:53 < akh> heh
22:53 < akh> -users, "Keep failing updates with apt-"
22:54 < akh> bedtime
22:54 < dmacks> 'nite
22:54 -!- akh [~akhansen@68-118-244-23.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit []
22:54 < newmanbe> For /me too.
22:54 -!- newmanbe [~newmanbe@199fdc5f8bc68073.session.tor] has quit ["Leaving"]
23:54 < pogma> why is my selfupdate rebuilding everything in base/ ?
23:55 < dmacks> 10.4?
23:55 < dmacks> Several base pkgs were fixed in the past day or so.
23:56 < pogma> okay, I only noticed gettext commits
23:57 < dmacks> apt, dpkg, debconf also
23:58 < pogma> okay, that's what got built
23:59 < dmacks> It you'd stayed with 10.2, you wouldn't be having these pronblems.
23:59 < dmacks> Um..."problems". You can solve your own pron-problems
--- Log closed Tue Jun 14 00:00:46 2005