--- Log opened Tue Jun 14 00:00:46 2005
00:00 < theid> that's almost bash.org-worthy
00:00 < pogma> got another dlcompat does not build on 10.4 message today, getting lots of people sending mail about issues on 10.4 because they're using the 10.3 tree :(
00:01 < statico> in a finkinfo file, how do i specify that this package depends on a perl module?
00:01 < statico> rather, a no specific version of the module, just that it's there
00:01 < dmacks> Add a "if uname>=8.0 echo 'your fink is screwed'" to CompileScript?
00:02 < dmacks> statico: perl modules exist in packages; you depend on the package containing it, not the module itself.
00:03 < statico> that's what i figured, so i tried Depends: term-readkey-pm
00:03 < statico> no dice. "can't resolve dependency"
00:04 < dmacks> Some perl packages are tied to a certain perl, so youhave to specify it and make sure that's the perl you're using. Otherwise it's easy for a user to wind up having "perl" be 5.8.1 but having module Foo installed for perl5.8.6
00:04 < dmacks> Are you writing a perl-module package yourself (that uses other modules) or a simple perl program that needs some modules?
00:05 < statico> i see. but if i specify term-readkey-pm560, perl-5.8.x users will be hosed?
00:05 < statico> the latter -- a program that needs Term::ReadKey
00:05 < dmacks> If you specify term-readkey-pm560, then you'd have to make sure your script calls not "perl" but "perl5.6.0", and have a Depends:perl560-core
00:06 < dmacks> That way all users *will* have perl5.6.0
00:06 < statico> yeesh. okay.
00:06 < dmacks> Fink does support concurent installation of multiple (different) perlversions
00:07 < statico> i'll guess i'll bind it to 5.8.6, then
00:07 < dmacks> Yeah, if you bind it to the perlverison on the OS X verison you're targetting, it's very likely they'll have that perl.
00:08 < dmacks> I think the "intltool" package does this
00:08 < dmacks> (the "multiple concurrent versions" issue is the reason we have to specify perlverisons for modules)
00:10 < statico> gotcha.
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00:14  * statico runs fink build and crosses fingers
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00:33 < msachs> 'lo
00:34 < msachs> So what's going on with the SSL symbols thing?
00:40 < dmacks> pogma's leaning on a very reluctant dyld person, last I heard.
00:41 < msachs> Ah, that's that radar.
00:41 < msachs> I'm CC'd on that one, I thought there hadn't been any activity on it, but I spoke with pogma today, turns out he's been talking with Nick directly via email.
00:42 < dmacks> Ayup.
00:42 -!- dmacks is now known as dmacks_away
00:42 < msachs> I'll go stick my nose in that one a bit more actively.
00:43 < pogma> msachs: there is a patch included in the radar
00:43 < msachs> yep
00:44 < pogma> msachs: I haven't bothered nick since wwdc, thought I'd give him a break :)
00:44 < pogma> What is happening (open dyld project if you have it) is this
00:44 < msachs> Yeah, I see the explanation and patch :)
00:46 < pogma> yeah dyld.cpp, loadPhase1 is called twice, first time to check if things are already loaded and second time to load stuff
00:46 < pogma> it is trying the fallback paths on the first call
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00:48 < msachs> Let me know if you don't hear from him in a few days and I can ping him, I know he has a lot on his plate.
00:49 < msachs> Last week was generally unproductive for everyone.
00:50 < pogma> I imagine most engineers got harassed about tiger bugs and compiler engineers got harassed about building "universal binaries"
00:51 < msachs> I spent some time in the Tools lab, the biggest class of hard problems we got that I didn't know what to do about were people trying to bring stuff over from CodeWarrior+MSL+PowerPlant.
00:52 < pogma> doesn't powerplant build with gcc?
00:52 < msachs> Most of the people in the labs want help with Xcode GUI-type stuff, but I'm starting to be comfortable enough with that that I was able to solve more of those problems than last year.
00:52 < msachs> The problems I saw were issues compiling the MSL headers.
00:53  * pogma hasn't bought codewarrior since Mac OS 8, so doesn't really know
00:54 < msachs> I have that stuff filed under the category of "before my time", and not UNIX before my time so I don't know anything about it.
00:56 < pogma> thanks for your xcode-2.1 patches btw
00:56 < msachs> No problem.
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00:58 < msachs> Need to figure out how to split my time between patching projects (for Tiger/GCC4), Fink infrastructure stuff (build daemon), and non-Fink work (putting together a test comparison/reporting system for my summer intern project, which I guess isn't entirely non-Fink as buildfink will probably take advantage of that.)
01:02 < msachs> maintnotify is a huge timesaver for me, it was a pain sending out those first couple of rounds of patches before I had it.
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02:07 < charles_> hello
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02:07 < charles_> anyone up at this ungodly hour?
02:07 < dmacks> No.
02:07 < charles_> :)
02:07 < dmacks> And nor should you be.
02:08 < charles_> is it possible to specify a build directory with the binary installer, anyone know?
02:08 < charles_> perhaps post-install
02:08 < dmacks> After you've installed fink, there are many options you can change, by many different methods.
02:08 < charles_> is this one?
02:09 < dmacks> I think 'fink configure' asks about that one. Or you can hand-edit your /sw/etc/fink.conf to set pretty much anything you want (it has a manpage)
02:10 < charles_> cool
02:10 < charles_> this is a lot better than trying to get darwinports to do ANYTHING
02:10 < dmacks> heh
02:10 < charles_> simple
02:10 < charles_> in #opendarwin
02:11 < charles_> no one seems to have any clue how ports works
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03:47 < dmacks> pmd
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05:05 < dmacks> !seen aida
05:05 < Melian> i haven't seen 'aida', dmacks
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08:19 < akh> hi baba (et al.)
08:23 < baba> hi akh
08:23 -!- baba is now known as baba_et_al
08:24 < baba_et_al> how's finking?
08:26 < akh> heh:  Not bad.  My bootable Panther removable works, so I can have both Panther and Tiger build environments available.\
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08:27 < akh> And even on my laptop--which is nice.
08:27 < baba_et_al> cool
08:27 < akh> Since the packages I maintain are pretty simple, it seems like a pity not to try to keep them updated for 10.3.
08:28 < baba_et_al> i wish Mac-on-Mac runs Panther and Tiger on Tiger
08:28 < akh> That would be impressive, if slow.
08:28 < akh> It would probably take a month to build KDE that way.
08:29 < baba_et_al> it shouldn't be slow, cos it's not CPU-emulation
08:29 -!- baba_et_al is now known as baba
08:29 < akh> Ah, yes--forgot about that.
08:30 < baba> i think something like MoM is very useful for package maintainers
08:30 < akh> Yes.  Though with the upcoming architecture change, we may need a good CPU emulator.
08:31 < akh> Or at least an x86 Mini ;-)
08:32 < baba> i want PowerMacP4 (or whatever)
08:34 < akh> That's good, too, if money isn't a problem.
08:36  * baba opens another beer
08:37 < akh> mmm...beer
08:37  * akh eats breakfast
08:42 < baba> still morning?
08:50 < akh> For about another 3 hours.  ;-)
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08:53 < baba> come to beer world
08:54 < akh> It's tempting....
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09:06 < akh> heh--the Tiger Install DVD has been verifying my HD for half an hour.
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09:11 < newmanbe> akh: Are you putting it on a different computer? I thought you had it already.
09:13 < newmanbe> And I never knew a DVD could do more than spin. :)
09:13 < akh> newmanbe: Yeah, I'm putting it on my desktop now.
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09:19 < sandeen_> hi all; how does fink prebinding work?  gnucash for example takes many minutes to start, and I've seen a few references to updating prebinding...
09:20 < sandeen_> this is on 10.4 fwiw; 10.3 didn't seem to start apps this slowly
09:20 < akh> That's not from prebinding, I believe.
09:21 < sandeen_> any idea what it might be from, then?
09:21 < akh> I think it's from dlopen
09:22 < sandeen_> any solution? :)
09:22 -!- You're now known as RangerRick
09:23 < akh> Wait for package updates that fix it, I guess.
09:23 < dmacks> sandeen_: Upgrade to 10.4.3 or so, if apple gets around to fixing it by then:(
09:23 < sandeen_> i'm happy to have gnucash working again on 10.4 but I have to plan ahead a bit to use it :)
09:23 < sandeen_> oh so it's an osx issue eh
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09:24 < pogma> sandeen_: the gnucash issue will be fixed in 10.4.2
09:24 < pogma> sandeen_: there was a problem with dlsym()
09:25 < sandeen_> ah, ok.  thanks guys... I'll just be patient :)
09:25 < pogma> sandeen_: but if you want to run gnucash-hbci there is another bug :/
09:25 < sandeen_> pogma, nope, don't need / can't use hbci
09:25 < pogma> how long is startup for you? I had someone report 38 minutes
09:26 < sandeen_> pogma, less than that..... maybe 5?  didn't time it
09:26 -!- dmacks [~dmacks@dmacks.student.supporter.pdpc] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
09:26 < sandeen_> "too long" in any case :)
09:27 -!- dmacks_ is now known as dmacks
09:27 < pogma> dmacks: hi
09:27 < dmacks> hello
09:27 < dmacks> (stupid xterm problems:(
09:27 < dmacks> (can't even figure out how to blame libtool for them...yet...
09:28 < newmanbe> !lart stupid xterm problems
09:28  * Melian gives stupid xterm problems a good seeing to
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09:28 < pogma> hmm, libtool
09:28 < pogma> should look at that :)
09:29 < dmacks> You've heard of it?
09:29 -!- KraMer_ [~mark@adsl-70-240-229-56.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #fink
09:29 < pogma> I heard it was this cool idea for a system to make shared libraries on multipe platforms, but the implementation sucks considerably
09:29 < sandeen_> hm, one more issue... from binary distro,  Library not loaded: /usr/X11R6/lib/libXinerama.1.dylib
09:29 < sandeen_> known problem?
09:30 < pogma> from the bindist?
09:30  * RangerRick should just reimplement it in perl
09:30 < dmacks> Oh...*that* libtool!
09:30 < RangerRick> it'd be about 500 LOC
09:30 < sandeen_> pogma, yes, I got lazy/impatient & stopped building :)
09:30 < RangerRick> if that
09:30 -!- KraMer_ is now known as KraMer
09:30 < dmacks> RangerRick: Well *I'm* not stoppin' ya.
09:30 < RangerRick> hehe
09:30 < RangerRick> yes you are
09:30 < RangerRick> stop it!
09:30 < RangerRick> I'm trying to work!
09:31 < pogma> sandeen_: you don't have /usr/X11R6/lib/libXinerama.dylib ?
09:31 < pogma> on tiger?
09:31 < dmacks> The policies of failure have failed. We must make them work again!
09:31 < sandeen_> pogma, tiger yes, but no dylib, just .a
09:31 < pogma> sandeen_: which x11 do yo use?
09:32 < sandeen_> pogma, from apple
09:32 < dmacks> damn...PPT never got around to implementing it:(
09:32 < pogma> hmm, me too, I have /usr/X11R6/lib/libXinerama.dylib on tiger's Apple X11, but not on panther's
09:33 < pogma> sandeen_: grab your install media and go reinstall X11User.pkg
09:33 < sandeen_> pogma, ok
09:33 < dmacks> pogma: /me concurs with your 10.3 situation.
09:33 < RangerRick> yeah, panther's apple x11 was xfree86 4.3
09:34 < RangerRick> which included libxinerama as only a static lib because it hand't yet been "promoted" to a supported lib with a frozen API
09:34 < dmacks> ...i.e., they were pulling random ideas out of their ass and hoping someone liked something enough to make it work properly?
09:35 < dmacks> Like ensemble and depstool didn't quite.
09:35 < pogma> hehe dep stool
09:36 < pogma> there was no way that was going to take off considering even it's name was "crappy" :)
09:36 < pogma> its
09:36 < dmacks> ha!
09:38 < akh> hmmm...what's up with the two "disk doesn't support symlinks" messages on the lists...
09:38 < dmacks> two?
09:38 < pogma> Hmm, I've been paying adc since 1998
09:38 < akh> Maybe there's only one.
09:39 < akh> Nope, two.
09:39 < akh> One just came in recently.
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09:39 < akh> (-beginners)
09:39 < dmacks> Does anyone know of a 'make' variant that supports logical-OR dependencies?
09:41 < dmacks> akh: The second one has some interesting details...we now know it's related to the specific volume/format/driver not "how one boots"
09:41 < akh> Right.
09:43 < statico> dmacks: thanks for the fast reply on Cadubi
09:43  * statico == sourceforge/eisforian
09:43 < dmacks> statico: you're welcome.
09:44 < statico> (fink validate)++ # nice tool for maintainers
09:44 < dmacks> Oh yeah...that's why we wrote it.
09:45  * pogma complains that it should be a different package to fink and updated separately :)
09:45 < akh> fink-validate ?
09:45  * pogma likes to complain
09:45 < akh> Or validate-fink
09:45 < pogma> part of fink-maintainer-tools
09:45 < akh> Ah.  Cool.
09:45  * akh blames Installer.app for the "symlink" problems.
09:46 < akh> (maybe unjustly, but it's there)
09:46 < dmacks> So nu? write newfangled-validator that installs Fink/Validate.pm and Replaces:fink :)
09:47 < akh> Sure.  Make it a non-essential splitoff of fink.
09:47  * dmacks contemplates the idea of an official pkg that Replaces:fink...frowns...
09:47 < akh> fink install emerge
09:48 < statico> fink install redcarpet
09:48 < dmacks> fink install dports; emerge fink
09:49 < akh> he
09:49 < akh> heh
09:49 < dmacks> How the heck can a 'ln' fail on a system that supports symlinks?
09:49 < akh> Yah, that seems pretty bogus.
09:50 < dmacks> (unless there are some weird pathname situations, but the "I only have one disk" guy kinda disproves that cause)
09:50 < akh> yeah
09:51 < dmacks> OTOH, does anyone even partially understand how Install.app does [anything]?
09:52 < akh> I know there's a pax archive and a bom file, but beyond that...
09:52 < statico> dmacks: Could 'diff -u' be added in the Packaging Tutorial or Manual somewhere? I only ran 'diff -c' because I saw it in other Fink patch.
09:54 < pogma> statico: We'll be happy to accept doc updates/diffs (as long as they are diff -u, of course) :)
09:55 < dmacks> statico: Check the Packaging Manual, section "Patches"
09:56 < dmacks> (although /me likes the flags -Nurd for both functional and aesthetic reasons:)
10:00 < statico> pogma++ 
10:01 < statico> Ah, okay. I'm blind. Sorry.
10:02 < newmanbe> !$25
10:02 < Melian> well, $25 is "Your question is in the existing documentation, so either look it up or pay the project a $25 'annoyance fee'."
10:02 < newmanbe> :)
10:02 < statico> Heh.
10:02 < dmacks> Only ~6% of the {10.3.10.4} patches are in the format of the .patch you happend to see.
10:02 < newmanbe> Well, it sounds like you have already looked it up.
10:03 < statico> I swear I read that "Patches" section five times. *sigh*
10:03  * statico finds his wallet...
10:03 < dmacks> newmanbe: That's a good !key :)
10:03 < newmanbe> Someone should write a tutorial for patches like the maxwell tutorial.
10:04 < newmanbe> (Not /me 'cause I still haven't gotten patches to work. :))
10:04 < dmacks> Scarily, my grep for "where is that documented?" only found the .ja format. And I can't read or speak Japanese.
10:05 < newmanbe> megahal: Teach dmacks Japanese.
10:05 < megahal> newmanbe: Dmacks i'm going to start drinking beer, but i can't imagine lank doing that.
10:05 < sandeen_> pogma et al, thanks for your help
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10:06 < dmacks> megahal: If pogma can learn Japanese, can I?
10:06 < megahal> dmacks: Learn to know japanese by the time i was overlooking.
10:06 < dmacks> meh:/
10:06 < newmanbe> OpenOffice.org has a funny versioning scheme.
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10:06 < newmanbe> 1.9.m104 is more recent than 2.0 beta.
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10:07 < dmacks> dammit!
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10:10 < dmacks> *grr* web-pdb updater is starting to fail again due to sf-suckitude:(
10:13 < pogma> enlist bbraun and move the whole pdb to sancho, then you can blame him when it breaks :)
10:13 < bbraun> hehe
10:14 < newmanbe> Hmm, bbraun is saying DarwinPorts is dead, so they will have extra resources.
10:14 < dmacks> Yamean overtly and legitimately, as opposed to just "in my mind"?
10:15  * dmacks meant that for pogma, but I guess interesting for newmanbe also...
10:15  * newmanbe was responding to pogma.
10:16 < pogma> anyway, the pdb on sancho does not seem like a bad idea
10:16 < dmacks> True true.
10:16 -!- broeken [~chatzilla@fswfirewall.fss.uu.nl] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)]
10:17 < dmacks> (assuming load/bandwidth isn't a problem)
10:17 < dmacks> ((or at least any worse that SF))
10:19 < das_> DP is dead, long live Fink!
10:19 < newmanbe> das_: Cross poster!
10:19 < newmanbe> Yes.
10:19 < das_> :p
10:25 < dmacks> !seen htodd
10:25 < Melian> htodd is currently on #fink (1d 11h 29m 31s).  Has said a total of 4 messages.  Is idling for 14h 16m 50s
10:25 < htodd> DIA IS BUSTED
10:25 < htodd> er, is that what you wanted to know?
10:26 < dmacks> Ayup.
10:26 < htodd> I haven't looked at it lately, but it's gnome stuff that I'm not likely to figure out on my own
10:26 < dmacks> If its bustitification is specific 10.4, pull its .info there?
10:27 < htodd> and I think someone said it's gnome1 and so I have to wait for gnome1 to be fixed?
10:27 < htodd> or am I misremembering?
10:27 < pogma> gnome1 is fixed, more or less
10:27 < htodd> ok, so I can star looking at it again
10:27 < dmacks> Dunno. 10.4 is *almost* gnome1-free.
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10:28 < pogma> November, gnucash-2.0, and as far as I know, gnome1 can go away
10:28 < dmacks> Shweet.
10:29 < htodd> maybe I'm thinking of gnucash
10:29 < pogma> m4 infinite loop, there goes working on libtool tonight. /me does not feel like looking to the mailing list to see if there is a solution
10:30 < dmacks> We need a 'fink list --nothing-depends-on-me' to find useless old -shlibs versiobs.
10:30 < dmacks> *versions
10:30 -!- cmeme [~cmeme@216.184.11.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
10:30 < dmacks> Ah..that explains why meme wasn't responding:/
10:30 < newmanbe> I think there is a package that does that. (off the record of course) :)
10:31 < dmacks> We also need a tree-checker  to find Depends that are not satisfiable self-consistently.
10:34 < dmacks> !ping cirdan
10:35 < pogma> I think I forgot to move the stupid gnucash hbci setup wizard to stable before the bindist
10:35 < pogma> bum
10:35 < pogma> oh well, only german people will complain :)
10:36 < dmacks> Whatever...I'm a frickin' postdoc...I don't know a thing 'bout cash.
10:36 < pogma> unfortunately I don't actually use gnucash, it seemed like an interesting project to port a few years ago
10:37 < dmacks> *sssshh*...don't wake the "only-maintain-what-I-undertand-and-currently-use" gods.
10:38 -!- KraMer [~mark@adsl-70-240-229-56.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
10:38 -!- dmacks [~dmacks@dmacks.student.supporter.pdpc] has quit ["leaving"]
10:39 -!- jtyler [~jtyler@iphost-64-56-130-194.edm.wiband.net] has joined #fink
10:41 < bbraun> hey dmacks, perl question for you.  I want to do: open FOO, "bar |"; but I want stdout and stderr over the pipe
10:42 < RangerRick> open FOO, "bar 2>&1 |"
10:42 < newmanbe> bbraun: see #opendarwin
10:42 < RangerRick> :)
10:42 < newmanbe> Or RangerRick.
10:42  * bbraun slaps head
10:42 < RangerRick> whose?
10:43 < pogma> probably mine :)
10:43 < htodd> no, mine. I'm the one who is dropping the ball on dia.
10:45 < htodd> I wish people would quit fixing the depends in info files that don't work
10:45 < htodd> MARTIN COSTABEL, THIS MEANS YOU
10:46 -!- gecko2 [gecko@gecko2.user] has quit [Excess Flood]
10:46 < pogma> htodd: huh?
10:47 < htodd> he went in and fixed a depend in my dia file and dia is still broken
10:47 < htodd> don't give people hope when there are other problems.
10:47 < htodd>  I'll start looking at dia again
10:47 < newmanbe> Martin doesn't come here, I don't think.
10:47 -!- gecko2 [gecko@freeforge.net] has joined #fink
10:47 < newmanbe> He didn't give me a nick when he had himself added to the map.
10:48 -!- TheSin [~TheSin@iphost-64-56-130-194.edm.wiband.net] has joined #fink
10:49 < pogma> he sometimes reads the logs, but the logs are harder to find these days
10:49 < newmanbe> And this is not logged right now. :)
10:50 < baba> futon time
10:51 < htodd> eh, I'm just venting
10:51 < htodd> I have no idea if Martin is on IRC or if he's a space alien
10:55 -!- baba [~baba@YahooBB220041001026.bbtec.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"]
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11:02 < cirdan> morning all
11:02 < cirdan> someone call me?
11:03 < cirdan> !seen dmacks
11:03 < Melian> dmacks <~dmacks@dmacks.student.supporter.pdpc> was last seen on IRC in channel #fink, 26m 19s ago, saying: '*sssshh*...don't wake the "only-maintain-what-I-undertand-and-currently-use" gods.'.
11:04 -!- pogma [~peter@p1174-ipad212kobeminato.hyogo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["Changing server"]
11:06 -!- pogma [~peter@p1174-ipad212kobeminato.hyogo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #fink
11:11 -!- akh [~akhansen@ldx4.psfc.mit.edu] has joined #fink
11:17 < cirdan> !wb pogma
11:17 < Melian> Welcome back pogma, o lonely traveller amongst the TCP/IP packets of chaos.
11:20  * akh begins the 'Tigerization' of my desktop box.
11:21 < cirdan> heh
11:21 < akh> I'm thinking XCode2.0 for now...
11:23 < cirdan> be brave
11:23 < cirdan> 2.1
11:23 < cirdan> :-)
11:23 < cirdan> i did
11:23 < cirdan> just make sure to not keep the old dev tools
11:23 < cirdan> run the uninstall script
11:24 < akh> Yup.  /me may put 2.1 on after I upgrade my existing packages.
11:25 < akh> Damn:  should have RAID'ed my two internal HDs.
11:25 < cirdan> i'm still on 10.3 tree on 10.4
11:25 < cirdan> havent built anything > month
11:25 < cirdan> time to update
11:26 < akh> At least builds got sped up--I can tolerate 2 hours for xorg rather than 6.
11:26 < cirdan> heh
11:28 < akh> Crap:  the X11SDK got installed.
11:28  * akh forgot to customize.
11:28 < cirdan> yeah
11:28 < cirdan> it's ok, just reinstall xorg i guess :-)
11:28 < akh> It needs to be updated for Tiger, anyway.
11:29 -!- kane_ [~kane@perl.xs4all.nl] has quit []
11:32  * akh needs to pare down my new Panther removable disk down to essentials--I don't really think I need all 80 Gigs of the partition.
11:44 < cirdan> heh
11:46 < htodd> now I remember why dia doesn't compile
11:47 < htodd> so, you guys think I should remove the dia info file until I fix it?
11:48 < cirdan> haha: http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=152514&cid=12801233
11:49 < akh> htodd:  Or put a note saying "This doesn't compile, but please help me debug it" in DescUsage.
11:50 < htodd> it's pretty much gcc breakage
11:50 < htodd> I just never got to it
11:50 < akh> cirdan:  not-so-excellent support?  We resemble that remark!
11:50 < cirdan> i think it's pinksa
11:51 < htodd> ok, back to work I get paid for
11:51 < cirdan> bah
11:51 < cirdan> why 
11:52 < akh> It's that hierarchy of needs:  gotta be able to afford food and shelter.
11:53 -!- Toroloc [~Toroloc@64.244.251.126] has joined #fink
11:55 < Toroloc> Hi. I have ruby 1.8.1 installed via fink, and now i need to have 1.8.2. How do i replace without breaking dependencies and without having double installs?
11:55 < Toroloc> 1.8.2 is not available in Fink (either stable or unstable)
11:55 < cirdan> Toroloc: wait until it is in fink
11:56 < Toroloc> Any ETA?
11:56 < pogma> Toroloc: inform the maintainer that it is available
11:56 < pogma> Toroloc: then copy the ruby .info file to /sw/fink/dists/local/main/finkinfo/
11:56 < pogma> make sure local/main is in Trees: line in fink.conf
11:56 < pogma> and edit the info so that it is 1.8.2
11:57 < pogma> if it works, send this .info along to the maintainer too
11:57 < Toroloc> ok. Will try this.
12:05 < akh> And the maintainer is currently logged in, even.
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12:14 < htodd> aw, crap. this is c++
12:18 -!- silas- [~mccune@ford.math.ohio-state.edu] has joined #fink
12:19 < silas-> I'm readying our tiger deployment, which includes fink.  A few of my faculty and grad students use KDE, but the bundle doesn't seem available.
12:19 < silas-> Is it possible to get binaries of KDE, or alternatively compile from source?
12:23 < RangerRick> no binaries yet, it's not stable
12:23 < RangerRick> you'll have to compile from source with unstable enabled
12:23 < RangerRick> it's mostly OK, but kdepim has issues
12:23 < RangerRick> (I suppose I could release everything but... ;)
12:29 < silas-> No biggie
12:29 < silas-> I'd just as soon not support it on OSX.  =)
12:29 < silas-> Are previous versions stable?
12:29 < silas-> I don't need to run the latest or anything.
12:29 < silas-> wmaker is working perfectly fine.  Sorta neat in full screen mode.
12:30 < RangerRick> not on 10.4
12:30 < RangerRick> there is no previous version  :)
12:30 < RangerRick> the stable version from 10.3 (3.1) doesn't buidl on 10.4
12:31 < silas-> Gotcha
12:31 < silas-> I can wait.
12:33 < silas-> Is there a gnome bundle?
12:33 < silas-> In case they're not happy with wmaker
12:34 < bbraun> cirdan: so if I wanted to pick up maintainership of some unmaintained packages, send mail to fink-dev and update the .info file?
12:34 < cirdan> right
12:34 < bbraun> how can aalib be abandoned?!
12:35 < bbraun> sheesh, of all the things that need to be kept up to date...
12:35 < cirdan> bbraun: sometimes people port things but dont wanna have fill maintainership :-)
12:35 < cirdan> or else the ppl become mia for 6 moonths or more :-)
12:35 < bbraun> yeah, I was mia for a bit, but fortunately, few of my packages get updated very often.  once every few years or so
12:36 < bbraun> gack!  and xearth!?
12:36 < bbraun> oh man, som critical things need maintainers...
12:36 < akh> xearth != critical
12:36 < bbraun> actually, xearth dev is dead, so it probably doesn't need a maintainer.
12:36 < bbraun> akh: you poor mistaken soul
12:37 < akh> Update it to the last version and leave it.
12:37 < bbraun> I think it's on the last version.
12:37 < bbraun> it's been quite some time since xearth had any activity
12:37 < akh> ah.  Then it's probably OK.
12:39 < akh> deborphan is unmaintained, too.
12:39 < akh> That's even useful and stuff.
12:54 -!- Macrobyte [~macrobyte@pcp06495808pcs.nstnig01.ct.comcast.net] has joined #fink
13:02 -!- regeya [~shane@adsl-sp3-cdale176.micgi.com] has quit [Client Quit]
13:07 < newmanbe> !pdb
13:07 < Melian> methinks pdb is the package database, which can be found at http://www.finkproject.org/pdb/
13:07 < newmanbe> silas-: You can look there.
13:13 -!- _BleedAway [whocares@saus04.usc.es] has joined #fink
13:15 -!- Omnifarious [~hopper@Omnifarious.sustaining.supporter.pdpc] has joined #fink
13:15 -!- BleedAway [whocares@193.144.75.31] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
13:15 < Omnifarious> fink is missing sha1sum.  :-(
13:15 -!- _BleedAway is now known as BleedAway
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13:16 < silas-> newmanbe: thanks
13:17 < newmanbe> Yep.
13:24 -!- regeya [~shane@adsl-sp3-cdale176.micgi.com] has joined #fink
13:24 < silas-> Does one start gnome from X11.app by just sticking exec /sw/bin/gnome-session into their .xinitrc?
13:25 < akh> silas-: more or less. 
13:25 -!- Macrobyte [~macrobyte@pcp06495808pcs.nstnig01.ct.comcast.net] has quit []
13:26 -!- regeya [~shane@adsl-sp3-cdale176.micgi.com] has quit [Client Quit]
13:27 < silas-> Wow gnome is slow.  Guess I shouldn't expect it to fly though.
13:28 < akh> That may be fixed in 10.4.2
13:28 < akh> (or so)
13:29 < silas-> What's the issue?
13:30 < akh> I believe dynamic linking
13:30 < akh> (dlsym)
13:30 < silas-> Strange thing to be problematic.
13:30 < akh> Yeah.
13:31 < silas-> Ah well
13:31 < silas-> Back to testing things on tiger.
13:35 < cirdan> akh: have u tested 10.4.2 yet?
13:36 < akh> Not as of yet.
13:36 < akh> I've got the .dmg, though.
13:36 < cirdan> you are an adc member, right?
13:36 < akh> And a spare drive.
13:36 < cirdan> same here
13:36 < cirdan> hehe
13:36 < akh> yup--pogma gave me a dev seed.
13:37 < akh> I'm NDA compliant.  ;-)
13:37 < cirdan> heh
13:41 -!- Feanor [~astrange@64.207.61.218] has joined #fink
13:46 -!- KraMer [~mark@adsl-70-240-198-19.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #fink
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14:07 -!- ringerc [~craig@dsl-202-72-144-62.wa.westnet.com.au] has quit ["Whoops, someone let the magic smoke out!"]
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14:10 < akh> grrr...forgot to have my iPod plugged in when I ran iSync and now I can't seem to add it.
14:10 -!- mprentice [~mprentice@cpe-066-057-015-105.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
14:11 < akh> ah-found why
14:15 -!- msachs [~msachs@17.255.99.114] has joined #fink
14:19 < cirdan> akh: ?
14:19 < cirdan> yeah, i can't seem to have my ipod in isync either
14:19 < cirdan> but it looks like itunes is controlling it anyway
14:19 < cirdan> very odd, and a real pain
14:20 < cirdan> i want it back in isync
14:20 < cirdan> :-))
14:20 < akh> Yeah, I didn't know about that one.
14:20 < akh> I hate it when behaviors change.
14:21 < cirdan> i lik eacitvating it from the menu
14:23  * rudy find a knife to remove cdw's face with
14:23 < bbraun> cdw is a faceless corporation
14:23 < rudy> they are now
14:23 < akh> heh
14:24 < rudy> they refused to accept the fact that my driver's license address is different from my billing address both of which are different from my shipping address
14:24 < rudy> "screw you guys, i'm going home" was my reply
14:25 -!- newmanbe [~newmanbe@2741fb6b6ec56b4b.session.tor] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
14:26 -!- newmanbe [~xchat-ssl@c6a9b32608d2aaf6.session.tor] has joined #fink
14:27 < newmanbe> !lart being disconnected without knowing you have been disconnected
14:27  * Melian nukes being disconnected without knowing you have been disconnected with a single large nuke
14:28 < akh> newmanbe: /me had that happen today too.
14:29 < newmanbe> And with no cmeme to help me through the recovery process.
14:29 < msachs> The junkbuster maintainer wants to know what our procedure is for deprecating a package.  It's been replaced by privoxy upstream.  Should he pull junkbuster from fink and have privoxy add "Replaces: junkbuster" ?  Or does junkbuster need to turn into a dummy package which depends on privoxy?
14:29 -!- Omni|Work [~hopper@Omnifarious.sustaining.supporter.pdpc] has joined #fink
14:29 < cirdan> 2nd way is cleanest
14:29 < akh> The latter is probably easier on users.
14:30 < newmanbe> Privoxy is not in stable as far as I know, junkbuster is.
14:30 < cirdan> and privoxy conflicts/replaces old versions of junkbuster
14:30 < msachs> Okay.
14:30 -!- linuxmaniac [~maniac@249.Red-83-33-143.pooles.rima-tde.net] has joined #fink
14:31 < newmanbe> One of the SVG drawing tools is like that, /me tries to think of the name.
14:31 < newmanbe> I think it is just a dummy package.
14:33 < msachs> I think one of 'em is sodipodi, not sure if that's the dummy or the replacement.
14:33 < newmanbe> Yeah, I think that's it.
14:34 < akh> I thought it was sketch/skencil
14:34 < akh> sodipodi and inkscape both seem to have a lot of files.
14:34 < akh> Unless you guys mean upstream
14:35 < newmanbe> The applications name was changed.
14:35 -!- drm [~drm@m975f36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #fink
14:35 < newmanbe> !wbb drm
14:35 < newmanbe> !wb drm
14:35 < Melian> Welcome back drm, o lonely traveller amongst the TCP/IP packets of chaos.
14:36 -!- Feanor_ [~astrange@64.207.61.218] has joined #fink
14:36 -!- Macrobyte [~macrobyte@pcp06495808pcs.nstnig01.ct.comcast.net] has left #fink []
14:36 < drm> Melian: how poetic!
14:36 < Melian> drm: are you using Windows?
14:36 < akh> drm!
14:36 < drm> akh!
14:36 < drm> Melian: shhhh!
14:36 < Melian> drm: are you using Windows?
14:36 < cirdan> foo!
14:36 < akh> lol
14:36  * drm wonders if bbraun is alive today
14:36 < akh> !seen bbraun
14:37 < Melian> bbraun is currently on #fink.  Has said a total of 15 messages.  Is idling for 13m 15s
14:37 < akh> yes.  :-)
14:37 < bbraun> depends on what you mean by alive.  =)
14:37 < drm> no, but i meant, after the bicycle adventure :)
14:37 < bbraun> oh, yeah, survived.  I'll be going carless at least for thursday.
14:37 < drm> cool
14:37 < drm> !lart sourceforge
14:37  * Melian farts in sourceforge's general direction
14:38 < drm> Melian: thank you... you convinced it to work :)
14:38 < Melian> no problem, drm
14:38 < newmanbe> !allicekill SBC
14:38 < newmanbe> !alicekill SBC
14:38  * Melian I want to kill SBC, I mean, I wanna, I wanna kill SBC. Kill. I wanna see SBC's blood and gore and guts and have SBC's veins in my teeth.  Eat SBC's dead burnt body.  I mean kill, Kill, KILL, KILL.  and I jump around with newmanbe, yelling "KILL, KILL"
14:38 < cirdan> hehe
14:39 < Omni|Work> What's SBC?
14:40 < newmanbe> A monopoly.
14:40 < bbraun> the new ma bell
14:40 < Omni|Work> Oh, OK.
14:40 < drm> hmmm... the navigation bar on the documentation page in the russian language version doesn't seem to be working
14:40 < newmanbe> A telephone, ISP, and satellite television company.
14:40 < akh> And isn't their former wireless division part of Cingular?
14:40 < newmanbe> It is a very whiny company, always complaining that it can't charge enough to lease its lines.
14:41 < Omni|Work> I thought it was Verizon.
14:41 < akh> Verizon's is still Verizon Wireless.  
14:41 < newmanbe> They kind'a some how own Cingular.
14:41 < Omni|Work> I thought they were owned by Southwestern Bell.
14:41 < akh> That's SBC.
14:42 < newmanbe> All the monopolies in this area are whiny.
14:42 < akh> Well, it's not like you can say "screw you, I'll take my business elsewhere"
14:43 < bbraun> most of the monopolies in this area are too small to get that whiny
14:43 < cirdan> Southwestern Bell corp
14:43 < cirdan> :-)
14:43 < newmanbe> The telephone company, the electric/gas company, Wisconsin's largest private-employer that happens to be a non-profit health care company.
14:43 < Omni|Work> I think that what should happen for monopolies is that when they're declared a monopoly and found to be abusing their position, it's declared that the state will not press murder charges against any of its executive officers.
14:43 < bbraun> oooh, a monopoly on all 15,000 customers.  =)
14:43 < newmanbe> All they do is whine.
14:43 < newmanbe> And sue people.
14:43 < drm> bbraun: he said wisconsin, not idaho
14:43 < Omni|Work> Err, not against.
14:44 < Omni|Work> Not press murder charges against anyone accused of murdering one of their executive officers or board members.
14:44 < akh> newmanbe: Back in my day, Ameritech was the local monopoly there.
14:44 < bbraun> yeah, I was making a joking follow up to my own comment.
14:44 < drm> ah, didn't see the reference
14:44 < newmanbe> Ameritech turned into SBC Ameritech which turned into SBC.
14:44 < akh> Yah
14:45 < newmanbe> We jumped ship while it was still Ameritech.
14:46 -!- Feanor [~astrange@feanor.developer.opendarwin] has quit [Connection timed out]
14:46 < msachs> bbraun: Why is sancho so slow to upload to?
14:47 < bbraun> from where?  it shouldn't be that slow...
14:47 < msachs> Apple campus
14:47 < akh> mmm.
14:47 < akh> .conspiracy
14:47 < das_> Heh.
14:47 < msachs> Was lucky to get 4K/sec yesterday, and it's no better today.
14:47 < das_> Because OpenDarwin is dead.
14:47 < bbraun> I haven't tried in a while, but I was getting ~4.5MB/s last year before I left.
14:47 < newmanbe> No, DarwinPorts is dead.
14:48 < das_> BSD is dead.
14:48 < das_> Netcraft confirms it.
14:48 < das_> Therefore, OpenDarwin is dead.
14:48 < bbraun> I really have no idea why it would be slow for you.  I just uploaded a bunch this morning and maxed out my wireless connection at work.
14:48 < newmanbe> Ergo Mac OS X is dead.
14:48 < bbraun> have you tried the usual traceroutes and such?
14:48 < das_> Now you're getting it.
14:49 < das_> Also, Mac OS X will be swarming with malware.
14:49 < das_> You know, since it will be running on PCs.
14:49 < das_> And PCs are susceptible to malware.
14:49 < msachs> I did a traceroute, it goes through a bunch of hops.
14:49 < das_> It's the hardware that protects you.
14:49 < msachs> att.net and then xo.net
14:49  * akh is waiting for FUD to the effect that Apple is going to give up OS production and put WIndows on their x86 boxes.
14:49 < msachs> Pretty low latency all the way down the line.
14:50 < bbraun> asymmetric routes, but that shouldn't be a big deal.
14:50 < drm> msachs: i'm wondering if i should really patch a package with your XCode 2.1 patch if the package is using gcc3.1 to compile :/
14:50 < theid_away> high latency from here: 1081 ms, but low latency from Iowa State: 55 ms
14:50 < akh> drm:  ewww
14:50 -!- theid_away is now known as theid
14:50 < msachs> drm: Perhaps the question raised by that is why the package is using gcc3.1 on an operating system which doesn't have that compiler? :)
14:51 < akh> Fink was generous enough to provide such a beast.
14:51 < drm> msachs: the answer is that I worked as hard as I could (with my limited skillset) to convert all of our legacy gcc3.1-using packages to at least 3.3
14:52 < drm> but when it became clear that I would fail in some cases, and that I could get gcc3.1 to partially compile under 10.4, I added a fink package for gcc3.1 to salvage those packages
14:52 < msachs> Consider that patch my conversion to 4.0, then?
14:52 < drm> i'm willing to try, but i'll be suprised if that one patch will do it
14:52 < msachs> I don't believe that any of my changes would cause breakage under older compiler versions.
14:53 < drm> true
14:53 < drm> should be harmless
14:53 < msachs> I think there was only one package which still didn't build after my patch.  Which one are you curious about?
14:53 < drm> xfig323
14:53 < msachs> Yep, that built.
14:53 < drm> wow
14:54 < drm> i may have only tried it with early 10.4 seeds
14:54 < drm> ok, cool, thanks
14:55 < msachs> np
14:55 < msachs> I'll even check to see whether it runs :)
14:55 < drm> whether i can this tested and committed before boarding a plane to europe is another question
14:55 < msachs> Where you off to?
14:55 < drm> amsterdam
14:56 < msachs> Nice.  Vacation or conference?
14:56 < drm> conference
14:56 < drm> after that, istanbul: vacation
14:56 < RangerRick> neat
14:56 < msachs> Sweet.
14:56 < RangerRick> traveling a lot this year  :)
14:56 -!- Murr [~neeri@A17-202-20-71.apple.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)]
14:56 < drm> RangerRick: already had two asia trips and this is the second europe trip
14:56 < drm> in calendar 2005
14:56 < RangerRick> that's what I mean
14:57 < Omni|Work> Is there any chance that fink will give up on MD5 and SHA1 and start using SHA2?  :-)
14:57 < drm> many things are possible, Omni|Work 
14:57 < Feanor_> msachs: could you remove the validate run files that succeed? they're not very useful to have around
14:58 < msachs> Feanor_: k
14:59 < akh> And one of my packages isn't anywhere on the list.
14:59 < msachs> drm: Looks like it should be depending on xaw3d-shlibs.
14:59 < Omni|Work> I was recently frustrated by the lack of sha1sum in fink.  :-)
15:00 < drm> um... it does
15:00 < Feanor_> alias sha1sum 'openssl sha1 < \!*'
15:00 < msachs> Oh, right, I did make install, not fink install, since I hadn't actually updated the fink .patch file.
15:01 < drm> msachs: oh, sorry... the stable version depends on xaw3d-shlibs... the unstable version is supposed to have statically linked xaw3d
15:01 < drm> that was a workaround for a problem which has since gone away, so i probably need a major update here
15:02 < Omni|Work> Feanor_: That's missing the -c option to check a file of sha1sums against the files on disk.
15:05 -!- akh [~akhansen@ldx4.psfc.mit.edu] has quit ["gotta run"]
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15:11 < drm> msachs: could you please send me your xcode 2.1 patches for libofx1 and mozilla?
15:12 < drm> also, the ones with "Maintainer: None" you could commit yourself
15:12 < drm> (or maybe you already did...)
15:12 < msachs> Sent.
15:13 < msachs> Haven't, will do that now.
15:13 < msachs> (Namely, libgtop and mozilla.)
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15:15 < msachs> I'm going to build with both 3.3 and 4.0 before committing, so it'll be a bit on mozilla :)
15:15 < drm> yup
15:16 < drm> i do the same... in fact, one of the fink installations on my laptop is now a 10.4 tree, so you and i may be the only two people actually testing 4.0
15:16 < msachs> Don't think my changes are risky enough to warrant checking Panther as well.
15:16 < msachs> That wouldn't surprise me.
15:17 < drm> that's one of the reasons i want to move to our 10.4 tree sooner rather than later
15:17 < msachs> There shouldn't be anything necessary for 4.0 which is a bad thing to do for 3.3.
15:18 < msachs> So maybe instead of a separate tree it should just -- C++ packages should indicate they want 3.3 for transitional in a way that lets them have 4.0 for not-transitional without the evil hacks that I'm doing in my builds.
15:19 < msachs> libgtop appears to only be in stable, should I copy it over to unstable?
15:20 < drm> the reason we're having a very careful transition is the damn ABI change for C++... it means that each C++ package which is updated to 4.0 has to have its dependencies modified so that all of the libs it depends on are also the 4.0 versions
15:20 < drm> msachs: yes... it is an error if a package is only in stable and not in unstable
15:21 < drm> anyway, the number of packages which actually use C++ turns out to not be that large, so it may be possible to do this soon
15:21 < msachs> Okay.
15:21 < drm> (after my vacation, unless somebody cares to do all the work while i'm gone :)
15:22 < msachs> One of my coworkers gave a talk at WWDC about moving to 4.0 which gave advice for fixing a lot of the C++ errors which had previously confounded me, so let me know if there's any particular area you'd like me to focus on for my next round of patching.
15:22 < msachs> I'll probably get one more round in and let some of it get committed before I do my next build.
15:22 < Omni|Work> drm: I didn't realized there was any significant ABI change from 3.3 to 4.0
15:22 < drm> i don't really know how to fix C++ errors, so any of those that you can fix would be great, msachs
15:22 < drm> Omni|Work: sadly, there was *another* ABI change in g++
15:23 < msachs> Is our WWDC sample code accessible to people who didn't go to WWDC?
15:23 < Omni|Work> Like C++, I imagine the ABI is quite complex and difficult to get right.  :-/
15:23 < drm> Omni|Work: once again, leaving you with libraries that have no easy external indication of how they were compiled, and yet they will be mutually incompatible if compiled with different versions
15:24 < drm> there was a flag introduced in gcc 3.3 which was supposed to ease this transition, but it turns out that the implementation was fucked up and it didn't help at all
15:24 < drm> msachs: i don't know; where would i look?
15:24 < Omni|Work> ABI changes are a big pain.  :-(
15:24 < msachs> drm: ADC downloads site
15:24 < Omni|Work> Is this because of the new ability to have non-exported symbols?
15:25 < msachs> I think it's because the FSF finally finalized their ABI spec.
15:25 < msachs> Hm, actually, I don't see it there, even for me...
15:25 < drm> msachs: well, they said they had finalized it in gcc 3.1
15:25 < drm> and then again in 3.3 :/
15:26 < drm> ah, but you're "just" an employee, not a valued external developer :)
15:26 < msachs> Quite true.
15:27 < drm> however, i don't have it either
15:27 < drm> no longer an ADC Select member, so not quite as valued an external devloper as i was previously
15:28 < msachs> ah
15:28 < msachs> yes
15:28 < msachs> http://developer.apple.com/samplecode/DeveloperTools/idxCompilersDebuggers-date.html
15:29 < msachs> Or more directly: http://developer.apple.com/samplecode/MovingToGCC4/MovingToGCC4.html
15:31 < drm> got it, thanks
15:31 < drm> something to read on the plane ride :)
15:31 < drm> (oops... i mean, after i finish preparing my talk :)
15:32 < msachs> Sure :p
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15:55 < drm> hey vasi
15:55 < vasi> hi drm
15:55 < vasi> pssst, msachs...can you rebuild the maintainer-index for your last build report?
15:56 < vasi> it seems to stop at the letter B
15:56 < msachs> vasi: What's wrong?
15:56 < msachs> Oh
15:56 < msachs> My upload was a little funky.
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15:56 < vasi> thanks for the osxutils patch, i'll apply it sooner or later :-)
15:56 < msachs> np
15:56 < msachs> use it in good health
15:56 < vasi> still trying to make sure all my packages work on Tiger
15:57 -!- cmeme [~cmeme@216.184.11.2] has joined #fink
15:57 < msachs> Yep, I'm still trying to make sure that all your packages work on Tiger too ;)
15:59 < vasi> :-)
16:00 < drm> msachs wants more, though: he wants them to work with xcode 2.1 and gcc 4.0
16:00 < msachs> I'm insatiable.
16:01 < Feanor_> i have a patch somewhere to fix nethack, but i've forgotten where i put it
16:01 < msachs> vasi: maintindex should be fixed now
16:01 < vasi> thanks msachs
16:01 < vasi> brb
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16:10 < drm> lovely... the PDB says 495 pkgs
16:12 < newmanbe> !alicekill sf.net
16:12  * Melian I want to kill sf.net, I mean, I wanna, I wanna kill sf.net. Kill. I wanna see sf.net's blood and gore and guts and have sf.net's veins in my teeth.  Eat sf.net's dead burnt body.  I mean kill, Kill, KILL, KILL.  and I jump around with newmanbe, yelling "KILL, KILL"
16:14 -!- charles_ [~charles@pcp02538154pcs.crosky01.pa.comcast.net] has quit []
16:16 < TheSin> so newmanbe you like sf?
16:16 < drm> bye
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16:17 < newmanbe> !lart TheSin
16:17 < newmanbe> :)
16:17  * Melian does a little 'dpkg -P TheSin' action
16:18 < TheSin> hehe
16:38 -!- aaron42 [~agdavi01@tiger.slug.louisville.edu] has joined #fink
16:38 < aaron42> hi, i have a question about some fink scanpackages warnings
16:38 < lisppaste> aaron42 pasted "scanpackages warnings" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/9116
16:39 < das_> try a 'fink cleanup'
16:39 < das_> and then run scanpackages again
16:39 < aaron42> i already did, and that got rid of most of the "package is repeat" warnings
16:39 < aaron42> but these are new
16:39 < aaron42> nw to me, i mean
16:39 < das_> Hmm.
16:40 < aaron42> i'm working on migrating a fink install to tiger
16:40 < aaron42> this box just got upgraded
16:47 < aaron42> somehow, fink won't update itself to 0.24.6
16:47 < aaron42> fink selfupdate just tells me no updates are needed
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16:54 < aaron42> hi, any idea why fink won't update to the tiger v?
16:55 < newmanbe> What?
16:55 < aaron42> i'm trying to update fink on a box that was just upgraded to tiger
16:55 < aaron42> and it won't install the new version
16:55 < aaron42> fink selfupdate does nothing
16:56 < aaron42> it's staying at 0.22.0
16:57 < newmanbe> Did you read http://www.finkproject.org/ ?
16:57 < aaron42> yeah, i tried all that
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16:59 < aaron42> running it again now to capture output....
16:59 < newmanbe> I am not sure if you can "upgrade" Fink when you change from Mac OS <10.4 to Mac OS 10.4.
17:00 < aaron42> worked on my other box...
17:00 < lisppaste> aaron42 pasted "update attempt" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/9118
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17:02 < aaron42> hello? anybody?
17:03 < RangerRick> aaron42: what's the question?
17:03 < RangerRick> it told you to do stuff, you did stuff, it didn't error
17:03 < RangerRick> were you able to selfupdate and get proper 10.4 stuff?
17:04 < aaron42> i keep running selfupdate and nothing's happening
17:04 < aaron42> it tells me no packages need updating
17:04 < RangerRick> erp, yeah, sorry, missed your earlier comments, just saw the paste and "hello?"  hehe
17:05 < aaron42> k
17:05 < RangerRick> what about: "sudo apt-get update; sudo apt-get dist-upgrade" ?
17:05 < aaron42> apt-get is still trying to hit the SF mirrors, which are slow or dead
17:05 < aaron42> it goes to 57%, then appears to hang
17:06 < aaron42> i'm not sure what to do to make it hit the new mirrors
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17:10 < aaron42> any idea on how to make apt-get use the new mirrors?
17:12 < msachs> aaron42: I think this might help...
17:12 < msachs> !403
17:12 < Melian> it has been said that 403 is http://fink.sf.net/faq/usage-fink.php#four-oh-three
17:12 < newmanbe> Melian: Forget 403
17:12 < Melian> i forgot 403, newmanbe
17:13 < aaron42> um, if you're talking about q5.22, it hasn't been updated for tiger
17:13 < newmanbe> Melian: 403 is http://www.finkproject.org/faq/usage-fink.php#four-oh-three
17:13 < Melian> okay, newmanbe
17:13 < msachs> Just say "10.4-transitional" instead of 10.3.
17:14 < msachs> I'm talking about 5.31, though.
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17:14 < aaron42> it's the fink version that need to be changed
17:14 < aaron42> it has http://us.dl.sf.net/fink/direct_download/dists/fink-0.7.1-updates/main/binary-darwin-powerpc/base/fink_0.22.4-1_darwin-powerpc.deb
17:14 < msachs> Check Q5.31, it has instructions on editing the apt sources list.
17:14 < aaron42> ah, ok
17:15 < aaron42> i'll work on that first
17:15 < dmacks> msachs: Ignore the part of the memoserv about sudo.../me was using a broken perl implementation not actual 'sudo'.
17:15 < msachs> dmacks: No problem, since it never bothered telling me I had a memo :)
17:15 < dmacks> heh.
17:16 < aaron42> fink update fink-mirrors does nothing, of course
17:16 < aaron42> resorting to manual....
17:16 < msachs> Should I commit a change to core to do the group change, then?
17:17 < aaron42> that's better....
17:17 < msachs> aaron42: Okay, cool.
17:17 < aaron42> working on apt-get dist-upgrade now....
17:17 < aaron42> whee, 207 packages to do!
17:18 < msachs> yay
17:18 < aaron42> when that's done in a half an hour, i'll try fink selfupdate again
17:18 < msachs> Yep.
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18:15  * newmanbe abolishes political parties everywhere.
18:16  * bbraun abolishes politics
18:16 < msachs> Careful, newmanbe, parties won't usually give up without a fight.
18:16 < bbraun> time to live in the trees again
18:17 < msachs> And give up our digital watches?!
18:17 < bbraun> yeah, especially parties with beer
18:17 < newmanbe> Doesn't matter, they don't exist, so they can't fight.
18:17 < msachs> Touche.
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18:30 < htodd> wierd
18:30 < newmanbe> What's weird.
18:30 < htodd> following the dependencies for dia back
18:31 < htodd> in msachs' report
18:31 < msachs> dia -> gdk-pixbuf, which failed due to missing builddep on libiconv
18:32 < htodd> yeah, which is odd since libiconv built
18:32 < htodd> but gdk-pixbuf isn't mine, so I dunno
18:33 < msachs> It built, but it isn't essential and gdk-pixbuf doesn't depend on it, so it wasn't installed for the gdk-pixbuf build.
18:33 < msachs> I purge all non-essential packages after each build.
18:38 < htodd> oic
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19:37 < dmacks> msachs: Actually, ignore my msg about ignoring the memoserv about sudo group wackiness.
19:37 < msachs> dmacks: Oh?
19:37 < msachs> So is sudo wacky, and what do we want to do about group ownership when --build-as-nobody'ing?
19:39 < dmacks> sudo seems to have weirdly-morphing group issues:(
19:40 < msachs> fink sudo or system sudo?
19:40 -!- Feanor [~astrange@mp1-249-79.dialup.emory.edu] has joined #fink
19:40 < dmacks> Under 10.3's /usr/bin/sudo, 'touch' creates files owner=root group=group-of-parent-dir
19:41 < msachs> Is parent dir sgid?
19:41 < dmacks> Nope.
19:42 < msachs> Owner of parent dir, not primary group of original user?
19:43 < dmacks> Correct.
19:43 < msachs> How reliably can you reproduce that?
19:43 < dmacks> One moment
19:44 -!- Murr [~neeri@A17-202-20-71.apple.com] has joined #fink
19:45 < dmacks> p.pogma.org
19:45 < dmacks> Aw crap. wrong winow
19:45 < msachs> :)
19:48 < vasi> dmacks, you noticed the as-nobody group issue?
19:49 -!- Feanor [~astrange@feanor.developer.opendarwin] has quit []
19:49 < lisppaste> dmacks pasted "sudo group weirdness" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/9120
19:50 < vasi> ooh msachs, i thought of something else cool that your buildfink script could do....it would be nice to make an index of file => package containing it, like packages.debian.org
19:51 < msachs> dmacks: sudo -V
19:51 < dmacks> Sudo version 1.6.6
19:51 < vasi> i already have a script in exp/vasi/scripts called flocate that does that locally
19:53 < vasi> dmacks, it's not a feature of sudo
19:53 < vasi> it's a feature of the open system call
19:54 < vasi> man 2 open
19:54 < vasi> "When a new file is created it is given the group of the directory which contains it."
19:54 < vasi> touch most probably does open() internally
19:54 < msachs> brb
19:54 < vasi> (or something else that's open-compatible)
19:55 -!- Feanor [~astrange@mp1-249-79.dialup.emory.edu] has joined #fink
19:55 < dmacks> (the last "ls -ld" was actually a # prompt...goofed while editing out some other commands I had tried)
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19:58 < vasi> dmacks, did those last few messages of mine come through?
19:58 < newmanbe> (or something else that's open-compatible)
19:58 < newmanbe> touch most probably does open() internally
19:59 < newmanbe> Thos were the last two I got.
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19:59 < dmacks> vasi: yeah...I'm having major lag here. Last I saw was "...open-compatible)"
19:59 < newmanbe> In reverse order.
19:59 < vasi> ok, i've been kinda lagging too
20:00 < vasi> do we have policy on what group files SHOULD actually be in?
20:00 < dmacks> Apparently "whatever the system thought was a good idea"
20:01 < pogma> wheel
20:01 < vasi> perhaps we should come up with a policy then :-)
20:01 < pogma> but we don't have a policy
20:01 < newmanbe> Policy!
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20:01 < vasi> wheel or admin are the only real options
20:01 < newmanbe> Melian: What is policy?
20:01 < Melian> newmanbe: what are you talking about?
20:02 < newmanbe> megahal: Should we have a policy?
20:02 < megahal> newmanbe: I have a policy.
20:02 < newmanbe> megahal: What is your policy.
20:02 < megahal> newmanbe: Who is your policy.
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20:04 < dmacks> So the group of a file is essentially useless.
20:05 < vasi> why useless?
20:05 < dmacks> A user can create a file to which he is not allowed to assign the setgid flag.
20:06 < vasi> so?
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20:10 < dmacks> If I wanted to create a file for others to use that gave them access to some-group's files, I'
20:11 < dmacks> would say "I'll just put it in /tmp, chmod 2755, and everything will be fine"
20:12 -!- ylon [~none@24.53.138.133] has joined #fink
20:12 < dmacks> But of course it won't be fine, because the chmod fails.
20:13 -!- akh [~akhansen@68-118-244-23.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #fink
20:13 < dmacks> cd /tmp
20:14 < dmacks> (whoops) Why shuold I be allowed to create a file owned by a group to which I don't belong?
20:15 < akh> heh
20:17 < dmacks> (This appears to be a filesystem- and platform-dpeendent behavior)
20:17 < dmacks> (according to man for open() on various machines)
20:20 < vasi> well the obvious solution is to chgrp the build dir
20:20 < dmacks> So anyway, sounds like we should 'chgrp nobody' the %b and %d dirs then chown root:admin after we're done building?
20:20 < vasi> not just with build-as-nobody
20:20 < vasi> with normal building, we should 'chgrp admin' the dirs
20:21 < dmacks> Rigrt.
20:21 < dmacks> *Right.
20:21 < vasi> i already changed the chown before to also chown symlinks, btw
20:21 < vasi> it was leaving them out
20:22 < dmacks> I didn't think symlink-ownership was a feature we had on OS X.
20:22 < vasi> new in Tiger, i think :-)
20:23 < akh> hmmm...wonder if that has anything to do with the symlink-related errors we've seen.
20:23 < vasi> akh, which?
20:23 < dmacks> Even on Panther, still good to use -h though, otherwise a link to a system file would result in chowning the system file.
20:24 < vasi> does -h work on Panther?
20:24 < dmacks> akh: I don't think so. OTOH, I don't have any ideas at all for it yet.
20:25 < akh> vasi: a couple of people couldn't install due to errors that said that their filesystems wouldn't support symlinks.
20:26 < vasi> weird!
20:26 < akh> Even on a nominally HFS+ disk.
20:26 < dmacks> -h seems to be ignored on 10.3. So my "even on Panther" comment is way off-the-mark.
20:27 < vasi> does it at least prevent chowning the link target?
20:28 < dmacks> vasi: Yes.
20:28 < vasi> ok, so then best to include it on panther
20:28 < dmacks> Yes.
20:29 < vasi> msachs, you around?
20:30 < dmacks> akh: This would give us a whole new way to hose your /var :)
20:30 < akh> dmacks:  All right!
20:31 < vasi> so dmacks, did you stay up all night coding for Shavuot? ;-)
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20:32 < msachs> vasi: I am now.
20:33 < vasi> msachs, my liquidwar package failed in your newest build report: http://fink.opendarwin.org/build/2005-06-01/logs/liquidwar.log
20:33 < msachs> Indeed.
20:33 < vasi> looks like the error is because there's nobody logged in or something?
20:33 < dmacks> vasi: Heh.
20:33 < msachs> Beats the heck out of me.
20:33 < vasi> but i have no idea what conditions there is a failure to open a mach port
20:34 < vasi> oh well, i'll have to do a >console login to find out or something
20:34 < vasi> is your sandbox system headless?
20:35 < msachs> vasi: It has a head but there's normally nobody logged in to the GUI.
20:35 < msachs> I'll try reproing.
20:36 < vasi> msachs, so it's just sitting at the loginwindow?
20:36 < msachs> vasi: Correct.
20:37 < vasi> k...hmph, that's gonna be annoying to debug :-)
20:37 < msachs> Well let's see if that solves it or not.
20:38 < Feanor> #define BOOTSTRAP_NOT_PRIVILEGED                1100
20:38 < Feanor> something like that
20:38 < vasi> Feanor, really? i'll check that out
20:39 < dmacks> Does SDL still open Quartz windows when building and when being linked-against?
20:40 < vasi> growl-pm still does some live testing during builds
20:40 < msachs> sdl succeeded in my last build
20:40 < msachs> vasi: I just tried fink build liquidwar again and this time it worked.
20:41 < vasi> msachs, with or without a user logged in?
20:41 < vasi> (to the GUI)
20:41 < msachs> My current blacklist is: gwydion-dylan-bootstrap gwydion-dylan applex11tools, bundle-webin, cwp-su, webmin, ccp4lib, emacs20, proc-processtable-pm58*, fontconfig-path
20:42 < msachs> vasi: Without.  Let me try -- build was done from inside a screen session, maybe thgat makes a diff.
20:42 < dmacks> W00t...only one is mine.
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20:43 < Feanor> yes, screen is in a different bootstrap context for whatever reason
20:44 < msachs> Yep, that broke it.
20:45 < vasi> ah
20:52 < vasi> well i'll see if i can make it work from within screen
20:53 < cirdan> !poetrysmite login contexts
20:53 < Melian> login contexts: Oh freddled gruntbuggly thy micturations are to me As plurdled gabbleblotchits on a lurgid bee. Groop I implore thee my foonting turlingdromes.
20:53 < mdmonk_away> gah! vogon poetry!
20:54 -!- mdmonk_away is now known as mdmonk
20:55 -!- aaron-away is now known as aaron42
20:55 < vasi> oh my
20:56 < cirdan> haha
20:57 < vasi> msachs, is your screen session a re-attached session?
20:57 < msachs> yep
20:57 < vasi> hmph
20:58 < cirdan> different process contexts suck
20:58 < msachs> i ssh in, run screen, detach, log out, ssh back in, reattach.
20:58 < aaron42> i've noticed that screens that are reattached sometimes have GUI issues
20:58 < msachs> All straight as root, no sudo.
20:58 < msachs> And nobody logged into GUI.
20:58 < aaron42> like "open" often throws bus errors
20:58 < cirdan> aaron42: cause it's not atttached to a gui
20:58 < aaron42> but i guess that wouldn't apply here, nm
20:59 < cirdan> i dont think there is an os x equiv of $DISPLAY though
20:59 < cirdan> kindofa shame
20:59 < aaron42> apple needs to make aqua exportable
20:59 < vasi> well i dunno what my options are...possibly i can hack on Allegro in some way, but not at all sure
20:59 < aaron42> it was back in NeXT, i hear
20:59 < vasi> maybe my old thing with ALLEGRO_CONSOLE_ONLY
20:59 < cirdan> hehe
20:59 < cirdan> aaron42: yup
21:00 < cirdan> 10.5 i bet ;-)
21:00 < aaron42> os x: thin client server
21:00 < cirdan> they add the feature back and call it innovative
21:00 < msachs> Maybe upstream has a clue.
21:00 < dmacks> Yeah, Aqua is pretty tied to the paradigm of "a user sitting at a computer"
21:01 < dmacks> (or "quartz" or "whatever the hell the term is for the GUI stuff")
21:01 < vasi> msachs, upstream really doesn't, the allegro folks have been somewhat unresponsive wrt Allegro programs on OS X that don't use the graphical abilities
21:01 < aaron42> to the point that anyone ssh'd in can "eopn" into the console user's gui
21:01 < aaron42> a guy goatse'd me once with that trick
21:02 < vasi> i think i can get it working, but i'll probably ask you to test for me :-)
21:02 < dmacks> aaron42: ha!
21:02 < aaron42> s/eopn/open/
21:02 < msachs> vasi: Deal.
21:02 < vasi> ok, later folks
21:02 < msachs> aaron42: That doesn't seem to work on Tiger.
21:02 < msachs> *waves*
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21:03 < dmacks> At some point there was a check that the user running 'open' matched the one sitting at the console.
21:03 < msachs> kCGErrorRangeCheck: Window Server communications from outside of session allowed for root and console user only
21:03 < dmacks> Yeah, that's the one.
21:04 < aaron42> this was most of two years ago
21:04 < aaron42> i was probably early panther
21:04 < aaron42> or even late jaguar
21:04 < dmacks> Guess we need an Aqua-ified xroach too:)
21:04 < aaron42> otoh, perhaps he sudo'd it
21:06 < aaron42> random question: does "db43-ssl: Berkeley DB embedded database - non crypto" make sense to you, or is it just me?
21:06 < aaron42> the alternative is "db43: Berkeley DB embedded database - non crypto"
21:06 < msachs> Doesn't make sense to me that ssl == non-crypto
21:07 < aaron42> exactly
21:07 < dmacks> pogma?
21:09 < cirdan> typo i assume
21:10 -!- msachs [~msachs@17.255.99.114] has quit ["'night"]
21:11 < dmacks> gmane just picked up fink-auto-logs
21:12 < cirdan> cool
21:12  * akh subscribes
21:13 < cirdan> 2announce?
21:13 < akh> on my NNTP viewer, of course.
21:13 < dmacks> cirdan: Is that where we go to tell you to fix the debconf dependencies?
21:13 < cirdan> debbugs
21:13 < cirdan> :-p
21:13 < cirdan> hats wrong with it?
21:13 < cirdan> w
21:13 < akh> it's missing po-debconf.
21:14 < cirdan> i thought it was fixed, but i dont have any comps on the 10.4 tree atm
21:14 < cirdan> oops
21:15 < cirdan> fixing now
21:21 < pogma> aaron42: fixed
21:32 < aaron42> cool
21:32 < aaron42> ooh, circular dependency
21:33 < lisppaste> aaron42 pasted "circular dep" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/9121
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21:35 < akh> That's not circular;  that's a conflict w/o replace
21:36 < aaron42> ok, what do i do?
21:37 < akh> remove autoconf2.5
21:39 < aaron42> there we go
21:39 < aaron42> thx
21:40 < aaron42> q-is there a reason crypto/non-crypto choices sometimes have the crypto as default, and sometimes not?
21:41 < aaron42> eg, db43--crypto is default; postgresql80-shlibs: non-crypto is default
21:42 < akh> You can make -ssl always be the default via a line in fink.conf
21:42 < akh> But, no, there's no special reason.
21:44 < pogma> depends on the order in the Depends line
21:44 < pogma> if it says 'Depends: db43-ssl | db43' then db43-ssl will be the default
21:44 < aaron42> ah
21:46 < akh> ah
21:46 < akh> So there's no special reason behind the maintainer's choice, then.  ;-)
21:47 < aaron42> i was wondering if there was a global policy due to legal issues, etc.
21:47 < dmacks> Nope.
21:48 < dmacks> fink (the program) blindly uses the same order in the dependency list and defaults to "the first one"
21:48 < pogma> so does apt
21:49 < aaron42> so the conf line would be "MatchPackageRegEx: .*-ssl$"
21:49 -!- aaron42 [~agdavi01@tiger.slug.louisville.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
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21:49 < dmacks> That wouldn't match db43-ssl-shlibs
21:49 < aaron42> good point
21:50 < aaron42> .*-ssl-.*$
21:50 < aaron42> ?
21:50 < aaron42> i guess the $ is redundant then
21:50 < dmacks> That wouldn't match db43-ssl
21:50 < aaron42> (.*-ssl$|.*-ssl-.*)
21:50 < akh> I've got MatchPackageRegEx: (.*-ssl*$)
21:51 < aaron42> i assume you dropped a dot there
21:51 < aaron42> i guess "-ssl" isn't too likely to occur spuriously in the middle of a package name
21:51 < akh> no
21:52 < aaron42> the second * needs a ., afaict
21:52 < akh> It works, that's all I know.
21:52 < aaron42> even on something like -ssl-shlibs?
21:53 < akh> I think so...
21:53 < aaron42> it doesn't look like it should
21:53 < dmacks> The field value is treated as a perl regular expression.
21:53 < aaron42> the star should function on the "l" then
21:54 < aaron42> so you match foo-ss, foo-ssl, foo-ssll, etc., but not foo-ssl-bar
21:55 < dmacks> It's Blinky! http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/308/5724/948a
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21:57 < aaron42> login required
21:58 -!- mdmonk [~mr_twitch@64.81.110.110] has quit ["Gotta go....Later"]
21:58 < dmacks> Tell your university library to fork over lots of money for the web subscription.
21:58 < aaron42> care to lisppaste the text?
22:00 < dmacks> Some zoologists in India created frogs with 3 eyes. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/roland98/948-1-thumb.gif
22:00 < aaron42> funky
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22:57 -!- You're now known as RangerRick
23:11 < knghtbrd> MacOS X Tiger for UNIX Geeks, preliminary rating: Buy, just as people imagined it would probably be..  =)
23:12  * knghtbrd is reading same right now
23:13 < dmacks> Okay, that's 3 people who have symlink-creation problems. WTF?
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23:27 < dmacks> !wb megahal 
23:27 < Melian> Welcome back megahal, o lonely traveller amongst the TCP/IP packets of chaos.
23:28 < dmacks> megahal: We are glad to have you.
23:28 < megahal> dmacks: Poop in general are to be pwnd by the panel its a new machine or one up then she deleted the right place.
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23:33 < Feanor> i wish megahal's backend wasn't so buggy
23:34 < RangerRick> Feanor: I've had no problems with the megahal scripts we've got set up
23:34 < RangerRick> this the one using Net::IRC and AI::MegaHAL?
23:35 < dmacks> Well maybe you should've told him sitting on a termite mound wasn't a good idea.
23:35 < Feanor> yes
23:35 < Feanor> how large is your megahal.brn file?
23:35 < RangerRick> about 6 meg
23:35 < Feanor> yeah, this one gets up to at least 60MB before it gets unstable
23:36 < RangerRick> ah
23:40 < RangerRick> Feanor: I also updated my AI::MegaHAL to use the newer megahal source
23:40 < RangerRick> you can just copy the .c and .h into the perl build directory and make the module
23:40 < RangerRick> :)
--- Log closed Wed Jun 15 00:00:31 2005