--- Log opened Thu Jun 16 00:00:13 2005
--- Day changed Thu Jun 16 2005
00:00 < aaron42> oh? last time i tried, it told me various locks were in place, and i couldn't have more than one fink running
00:00 < dmacks> Until fink-0.25, just make sure to not start them at the same time (the 'dpkg' command is not yet ||-safe until then)
00:00 < aaron42> has that changed
00:00 < aaron42> ?
00:00 < dmacks> Well duh, you can't do *conflicting* things at the same time:)
00:00 < aaron42> what is non-conflicting?
00:02 < dmacks> That's for fink to determine.
00:03 < dmacks> You can't build two things that have dependencies that conflict with each other (db42 and db43, for example).
00:04 < dmacks> If two pkgs both have the same dep, they can't both try to build it at once.
00:04 < aaron42> but two installs of non-conflicting packages should work?
00:04 < dmacks> Yup.
00:04 < aaron42> i may try that sometime then
00:05 < dmacks> fink's CVS HEAD version is much better about swapping deps and queuing dpkg commands.
00:05 < statico> dmacks: Hi.
00:05 < dmacks> hi statico 
00:05 < dmacks> Not now..../me -> phone
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00:41  * brion subversively whispers... "DarwinPorts has gimp 2.2.7"
00:51 < Feanor> darwinports doesn't have our screwed up freetype situation or i'd have updated to gimp 2.2
00:51  * pogma suggests brion go install darwinports
00:51 < Feanor> er
00:52 < Feanor> pretend that sentence says what i meant it to say
00:52 < brion> :)
00:52 < pogma> Feanor: what's the problem? I thought we had the new freetype now
00:53 < Feanor> the problem was that i couldn't find a way for gimp to work unless all of fink was compiled against our freetype219 and nothing against x11's freetype
00:53 < Feanor> this doesn't happen
00:54 < Feanor> the alternative was a package that worked on xorg and not elsewhere
00:54 < pogma> you want this to work only on 10.4, how much do you care about 10.3?
00:55 < Feanor> i cared about 10.3 when i was working on it because 10.4 wasn't out yet
00:55 < Feanor> but apple x11 is unchanged in tiger
00:55 < pogma> Feanor: but DYLD_INSERT_LIBRARIES works in tiger without FORCE_FLAT etc
00:56 < pogma> Feanor: you could insert the freetype lib, it might help
00:56 < brion> whee, i seem to have working gimp from darwinports and haven't killed my freshly reinstalled fink stuff so far
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00:56 < Feanor> i believe freetype breaks binary compatibility between minor versions
00:56 < Feanor> but i don't remember clearly, so i'll check
00:58 < pogma> okay, non-fink question, if I buy an iPod in japan, can the interface language be set to english?
00:59 < Feanor> yes
00:59 < Feanor> i assume you can read it well enough to get to the settings menu
01:00 < pogma> cool, yeah, I can find the setting menu, just did not know if they shipped multilingual or unilingual
01:00 < pogma> thanks
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01:09 < dmacks> statico: Okay, what's up?
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01:12 < statico> dmacks: Just pestering you again about my Cadubi submission. I'm afraid it'll get lost with the other 199 tickets.
01:12 < statico> If that's the queue I have to wait for, however, that's fine. :)
01:14 < dmacks> We hardly go in order. Simple-looking things get handled quickly because folks can take care of them during seminars instead of having to take serious time to do serious testing:)
01:15 < pogma> need more committers
01:15  * dmacks sets pogma's commit bit:)
01:15  * statico might commit more if he used Mac OS X continuously.
01:16 < dmacks> If sf.net were accessible right now, I'd take a look:/
01:16  * statico scowls at SourceForge.
01:16  * statico wishes they'd remove ViperTracker, too. He's asked twice.
01:16 < statico> I've got this problem with ancient cheesy programs following me around.
01:18 < theid> !lart sf.net
01:18  * Melian takes large quantities of Krispy Kream donuts and stuffs them one after another down sf.net's throat until sf.net puts on 150lbs
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01:19 < theid> that's possibly the most frequently said thing here
01:23 < statico> dmacks: Anyway, I'm out. If there's anything I can do to expedite the Cadubi package (rain dance, sprinkle salt, etc.), lemme know.
01:24 < dmacks> :)
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04:21 < dkg> hi
04:21 < dkg> how to burn a cd on console?
04:22 < dkg> i forgot the command.
04:26 < dkg> found i
04:26 < dkg> t
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04:49 < knghtbrd> hdiutil can do it?
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06:32 < cirdan> hdiutil, cdrecord, cdrdao...
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07:36 < Fang> Strange problem with my X11 windows
07:36 < Fang> When I switch to x11, either via command-tab or through the dock, the windows don't appear
07:36 < Fang> Anyone else experienced this?
07:37 < Fang> Switching via Exposé works OTOH
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07:57 < linuxmaniac> hi all
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08:11 < cirdan> Fang: use xorg
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08:13 < robilad> heya
08:14 < cirdan> adsa..
08:19 < robilad> i've got a few generic questions, these days. when installing applicaitons on user desktops, would fink+rdist be suitable for that, or is Apple's Remote Desktop with pkg files a better idea?
08:20 < cirdan> huh?
08:20 < cirdan> what type of applications?
08:20 < cirdan> if they are in fink, easiest way is to have a generic fink setup,make a tarball and just extract
08:21 < cirdan> remembering to reinstall xorg
08:21 < robilad> unixy stuff in general, research lab.
08:21 < robilad> so most of what they'll need should be in fink.
08:21 < cirdan> use fink
08:21 < cirdan> what snot, package it up :-p
08:21 < robilad> :)
08:22 < cirdan> also u can make your own unstable bin server
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08:22 < cirdan> so once u get a base installed they can install what's needed
08:22 < robilad> we have a full debian based infrastructure for x86-linux for house use anyway, so I am looking at fink as something that could integrate into that.
08:23 < vasi> robilad, that should be pretty easy
08:23 < cirdan> umm, i dunno about integrate...
08:23 < mpf> howdy
08:23 < robilad> setting up a binary  package repo should be pretty similar, I guess.
08:23 < cirdan> but it'll look the same for the binserver :-
08:23 < cirdan> )
08:23 < vasi> robilad, if you'll be making your own bindist, you'll probably want to install apt-ftparchive
08:24 < vasi> fink's default way of making Packages.gz is very very slow
08:24 < mpf> i'm maintainer for cfengine package. msachs sent me a patch for xcode 2.1 support but I can't get it to compile
08:24  * robilad notes down apt-ftparchive
08:24 < vasi> mpf, msachs' patches are good starting points but he hasn't tested them
08:24 < mpf> getting another error: SIOCADDRT undeclared
08:24 < vasi> his patch for my osxutils didn't work right away either, i had to do some tweaking
08:25 < robilad> vasi, yeah, chances are we'll have some lab internal packages, like our own tex styles, and such.
08:26 < vasi> mpf, wanna paste the patch he sent?
08:26 < vasi> !lisppaste
08:26 < Melian> from memory, lisppaste is a bot that lets you post large chunks of text without flooding the channel. Use it at http://paste.lisp.org/new/fink
08:26 < robilad> i am wondering what to do about the apps that are not in fink, and are non-free, in general. and software update.
08:26 < cirdan> so tored...
08:26 < lisppaste> mpf pasted "cfengine.patch" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/9162
08:27 < cirdan> tired
08:27 < cirdan> robilad: u can make custom packages that install the private apps
08:27 < vasi> robilad, such as what?
08:27 < cirdan> just slurp them into a deb
08:27 < robilad> palm syncing software, for example.
08:27 < robilad> binary only stuff like that.
08:28 < vasi> robilad, so you mean OS X .app type things?
08:28 < cirdan> that way an update-all in apt will update those too
08:28 < robilad> yeah
08:28 < vasi> those should probably not be distributed with Fink
08:28 < mpf> i had a look in includes for SIOCADDRT and it is #ifdef 0 out
08:28 < vasi> cuz users like to move those around
08:28 < vasi> Fink doesn't deal well with that
08:28 < robilad> ok, what's the best solution for those things?
08:28 < cirdan> vasi: app bundles...isnt' that in a release?
08:29 < vasi> cirdan, we support app bundles, but it's intended only for cases where they're auxiliary to command line tools
08:29 < vasi> ie: if Python wants to install a single .app, that's ok
08:29 < cirdan> vasi: for internal stuff it could be used
08:30 < vasi> but afaik (at least last i heard), we're not really intending to dump .apps into Fink just like that
08:30 < cirdan> just make =the lab rats know not to move the prigs
08:32 < cirdan> origs
08:32 < vasi> for .apps, it really depends what usage pattern you have
08:32 < cirdan> vasi: that way apt-get upgrade could update all of the needed apps on a workstation
08:32 < pogma> Hmm, .apps which are distributed in source form, they should be allowed in fink
08:32 < cirdan> pogma: aren't they?
08:32 < vasi> if it's an app that users may or may not want, then just zip them up and put them on a website
08:32 < pogma> I don't believe fink should be distributing stuff that is only available in binary form
08:32 < robilad> ok, so, to take a scary example, a house ms office deb would not be well suited for fink distribution as users can move apps around, correct?
08:32 < vasi> pogma, we're talking about someone's private apt repo
08:32 < vasi> yeah, that would be bad :-)
08:32 < robilad> (and I am just talking about a private repo for a lab)
08:32 < pogma> ah, should have read the scrollback
08:32 < vasi> for MS Office, just zip up the Office directory and let users download it and unzip it themselves, if it's optional
08:32 < cirdan> robilad: if they were installed somewhere like /sw/Applications, they could be symlinked to /Applicatoipns and the users can move the symlinks
08:32 < vasi> if every user should have it, then just automate that process
08:32 < mpf> should i be build stuff with xcode 2.1?
08:33 < robilad> ok, automation is what I want to know more about :)
08:33 < pogma> mpf: most stuff (except bootstrap?) has been fixed for 2.1
08:33 < mpf> ok
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08:33 < vasi> robilad, tell me more about your use case
08:33 < cirdan> pogma: i dont think drm has committed the dpkg fix
08:34 < vasi> do you have a bunch of identical machines that you're setting up? do you care about upgrading old things?
08:34 < cirdan> if he hasn't i'm testing it an d committing it, cause i have xcode 2.1 ;-)
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08:34 < robilad> vasi, small lab of ~10 macs, heterogenous network, admins have lot of experience with debian (including customizing it), macs need to be able to fit into the existing infrastructure.
08:35 < vasi> are you setting it up once, in advance?
08:35 < robilad> macs will have the usual scientific software (via fink, I'd say), and a set of non-free stuff like office, palm, vpn clients, etc.
08:35 < vasi> or are you intending to constantly add/upgrade stuff?
08:36 < vasi> also, have you seen this site? http://www.afp548.com/
08:36 < cirdan> heh
08:36 < cirdan> netatalk! :-)
08:37 < robilad> it will be a full platform, as the lab is essentially a new group in our research facility. so i'd expect to update things continuously, as the heteregenous environment changes, for example.
08:37 < vasi> cuz many GUI apps aren't nicely upgradable
08:38 < vasi> ie: if you upgrade to a newer version, something may have broken
08:38 < cirdan> vasi: right, but if he had a way to roll them into a deb, they ould be easier to update
08:38 < vasi> cirdan, not really
08:39 < vasi> i'm talking in the sense of "upgrading MS Office may cause old files to not open any longer"
08:39 < cirdan> vasi: well, the old app would be completly removed and the new installed
08:39 < robilad> vasi, oh, that's a nice site!
08:39 < cirdan> oh
08:39 < vasi> usually unix distros are more careful about backwards compat than GUI sw
08:39 < cirdan> vasi: well, MS wants you to buy new versions
08:39 < vasi> :-)
08:40 < cirdan> even if they change the default file format, you can change it back
08:40 < robilad> any experiences with lotus notes on tiger?
08:40 < vasi> robilad, i'm not sure if there are any truly automatic ways to do things
08:41 < vasi> (no exp at all with that, sorry)
08:41 < vasi> my instincts wrt installation would be
08:41 < cirdan> lotus works on os x?
08:41 < cirdan> heh
08:41 < vasi> 1. For required stuff, set up a disk image containing everything you'll need and just install it on every system before users get there.
08:41 < robilad> np, I am just sort of wary of Tiger wrt to non-free software. IBM took ages to make notes work with panther :(
08:41 < vasi> (see 'man asr')
08:42 < vasi> 2. For optional stuff, just create an internal website with .zip files, or make a share point containing all the apps
08:42 < cirdan> robilad: yeah, foss has that problem too :-)
08:42 < vasi> 3. Anything that's unixy, use Fink/apt
08:43 < robilad> cirdan, 6.5.4. works on 10.3, avoid previous versions on 10.3 as they'll semi-randomly break apart. no fun. :)
08:43 < cirdan> hehe
08:43 < vasi> apparently Apple Remote Desktop (not free!) supports some kind of remote installation
08:43 < vasi> no idea how well it works
08:45 < robilad> yeah, I was looking into ARD but first I need to work my way through the uppsala paper :)
08:45 < vasi> ewww, it looks like it only supports remote install of .pkg's
08:45 < vasi> ah ok, it can do copying too
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08:46 < vasi> (note that it needs UDP, old wireless networks like mine can't do that, so i've never tried it)
08:46 < cirdan> vasi: scp -r *.pkg salsa:
08:46 < cirdan> ssh salsa
08:46 < cirdan> insaller -target / foo.pkg :-)
08:46 < vasi> installer, yeah i know
08:47 < cirdan> free too
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08:47 < vasi> ugh, apple just went and gave all their Tiger stuff ACL/Finder info/resource fork support
08:47 < vasi> but zip, which had the best support on Panther
08:48 < vasi> still hasn't caught up, it's missing ACL's
08:48 < cirdan> vasi: `?
08:48 < vasi> if you do the 'make an archive' thing in the finder, it will include resource forks, but not other extended attributes, that's all
08:49 < vasi> annoying!
08:49 < cirdan> ah
08:49 < cirdan> we need all the tiger stuff in the gnu version of cp and mv and all
08:49 < cirdan> hey, maybe apple can give source to ditto away now that all the rsrc stuff in opensource :-)
08:49 < vasi> go port it, it's all open source
08:50 < vasi> er, not ditto, that's still closed cuz of BOM
08:50 < vasi> but the cp/tar/etc patches are available
08:50 < cirdan> damn
08:50 < vasi> so who needs ditto?
08:50 < cirdan> havent even looked at them
08:50 < cirdan> dunno, was just annoying
08:51 < vasi> here's the magic: http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/10.4/Libc-391/darwin/
08:51 < cirdan> libc?
08:51 < vasi> yeah, but the header is missing on OS X, so you need to copy it over
08:51 < vasi> kinda not finalized :-)
08:51 < cirdan> heh
08:52 < cirdan> screwy
08:52 < vasi> hmmm...sqlite's test suite is doing: $(LIBTOOL_LINK) lib.la foo.o    and expecting a symbol in foo.o to override the same symbol in lib.dylib
08:52 < vasi> is there any way to make that actually occur on os x?
08:53 < cirdan> pogma: /
08:54 < pogma> is lib multi-module?
08:54 < vasi> yeah
08:54 < pogma> does foo override every function in the corresponding .o in the library?
08:54 < vasi> yep, it's the same file with different defines
08:55 < pogma> then it should work
08:55 < vasi> er well...it doesn't :-)
08:55 < pogma> order is wrong?
08:55 < vasi> yeah, libtool does that...if it's reordered it'll work?
08:56 < pogma> should work
08:56 < pogma> documented to work :)
08:56 < vasi> since when do the docs mean anything? :-)
08:58 < vasi> grrrr
08:58 < cirdan> hehe
08:58 < vasi> still no worky...maybe there's a symbol missing
08:59 < vasi> maybe i can just convince it to not use the lib at all
09:04 -!- You're now known as RangerRick
09:10 < cirdan> .
09:11 < RangerRick> saw the new batman last night
09:11 < RangerRick> it was sweet
09:12 < cirdan> cool
09:13 < RangerRick> pogma: running into an issue with libtool 1.5.18 and relative paths in wrapper binaries, is that a known issue?
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09:19 < pogma> RangerRick: Yeah, I think we fixed that in HEAD and it didn't get backported
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09:19 < RangerRick> pogma: ok, I'll go looking for a patch
09:19 < pogma> let me look
09:19 < RangerRick> even better
09:19 < RangerRick> :)
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09:21 < pogma> 2004-11-27  Bob Friesenhahn
09:21 < pogma> I think
09:24 < RangerRick> thanks
09:26 < pogma> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gnu.libtool.patches/3530
09:26 < RangerRick> simple enough change  :)
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09:32 < Fang> Ah, humm, sorry, looks like someone answered me and I missed the reply :/
09:35 < cirdan> yup
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10:00 < pogma> RangerRick: does that patch apply? And does it fix your issue?
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10:06 < RangerRick> pogma: yup
10:06 < RangerRick> appears to have fixed it
10:10 < pogma> cool, I guess someone who cares ought to put it on branch-1-5 :)
10:11 < RangerRick> :)
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10:21 < pogma> RangerRick: on branch-1-5 now
10:21 < RangerRick> pogma: sweet, thanks
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10:45 < RangerRick> pogma: just double-checked, it's making correct .la's now  :)
10:45  * RangerRick is building kde4 kdelibs against qt/mac  :)
10:45 < akh> ooooh!
10:46 < RangerRick> shh!
10:46  * akh won't publicize it.  ;-)
10:47 < pogma> hopes of this working are high?
10:47 < akh> (or even ask about it)
10:47 < RangerRick> pogma: no idea yet
10:47 -!- Macrobyte [~macrobyte@pcp06495808pcs.nstnig01.ct.comcast.net] has quit []
10:47 < RangerRick> but it looks like the win guys have simplified a lot of the bits that were difficult before
10:47 < pogma> cool
10:48 < RangerRick> and now that you're required to use unsermake (until they have the new buidl system) it's easier to hack stuff up for osx in the meantime  :)
10:49 -!- baba [~baba@YahooBB220041001026.bbtec.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
10:50 < pogma> they are abandoning autotools?
10:53 < RangerRick> trying to
10:53 < RangerRick> shell's speed is a great motivator to use something else  :)
10:57 < vasi> oooh unsermake is the massively parallel one, right?
10:58 < RangerRick> unsermake is an implementation of automake in python
10:58 < RangerRick> that also includes the functionality of kde's Makefile.in post-processor
10:58 < RangerRick> and is kind of expanding in scope
10:59 < RangerRick> but yes, it does massively parallel
10:59 < RangerRick> and it also knows the difference between a compile and everything else, so it won't parallelize linking
11:06 -!- drm [~drm@cfw-33.science.uva.nl] has joined #fink
11:06 < drm> hola
11:08 < vasi> hi
11:08 < drm> hi
11:08 < drm> RangerRick, you around?
11:08 < RangerRick> drm: yeah
11:08 < RangerRick> what's up?
11:09 < drm> i'm just compiling a qt3-based package for possible addition to fink, and...
11:09 < drm> i'm doing so on a non-/sw fink installation, and yet...
11:09 < drm> config.log reports QT-INCLUDES as /sw/include/qt3 and so on
11:09 < drm> (it's all /sw)
11:09 < vasi> drm, does 'env | grep sw' turn anything up?
11:10 < drm> is there an inadvertant hardcode of /sw someplace in qt3?
11:10 < drm> vasi: you mean in my own environment?
11:10 < vasi> RuntimeVars get propagated to fink builds, right?
11:10 < vasi> i think QT sets one
11:10 < drm> my own environment has no /sw
11:10 < RangerRick> I'm patching with @PREFIX@ though
11:10 < drm> or even sw
11:11 < RangerRick> I'm not aware of a /sw
11:11 < vasi> drm, on my box i have both a /sw and another prefix, so things like that can matter if i use the same term :-)
11:11 < RangerRick> what does "grep /sw <prefix>/share/qt3/mkspecs/darwin-g++/*" print?
11:11 < drm> vasi: well I have both as well, but there is no trace of /sw in the environment
11:12 < RangerRick> (are you sure this software doesn't explicitly look for /sw on darwin?  I've seen that once or twice)
11:12 < drm> i can check for that
11:13 < drm> (nothing in the grep)
11:13 < RangerRick> yeah, as far as I knwo, I handle all the hardcoded paths in qt
11:13 < RangerRick> it's all in qmake.conf
11:14 < drm> RangerRick: that was it... upstream folks explicitly put /sw/lib /sw/include
11:14 < drm> into their ./configure
11:14 < drm> jeez!
11:15 < vasi> time to go yell at upstream :-/
11:15 < pogma> hehe
11:15 < drm> they also have /opt/local there
11:15 < RangerRick> heh
11:16 < RangerRick> just look at prefix people!  that's what it's for!
11:16 < pogma> s/yell at/talk sense into/
11:16 < vasi> pogma, what's the difference? :-P
11:16 < drm> they test for the presence of /opt/local and for the presence of /sw (both under darwin only, of course) and adjust flags accordingly
11:17 < drm> i mean, that was thoughtful in a way...
11:17 < pogma> where both darwinports and fink have configurable prefixes
11:17 < drm> yup :)
11:17 < drm> thoughtful in one way, thoughtless in another
11:17 < pogma> I could, were I insane, install dports into /sw
11:17 < vasi> dports can move too? i didn't know that
11:17 < vasi> and fink into /opt/local?
11:17 < RangerRick> vasi: yeah, if you todo the bootstrap yourself
11:17 < vasi> <g>
11:17 < pogma> yeah, that'd be fun :)
11:18 < akh> Like extracting your own appendix.
11:18 < pogma> heh, never thought I'd see a real ^H^H sequence, one that wasn't just for effect :)
11:19 < RangerRick> pogma: haha, yeah, stupid terminal bug
11:20 -!- vasi [~vasi@modemcable214.145-70-69.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Toodles y'all!"]
11:20 < drm> sorry guys, i seem to have gotten my poor root partition to 100%, gotta quit x11
11:20 < drm> bbl
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11:31 < bigred> I am trying to install fink via the grapical installer, but i get the error "cannot install fink on this volume. this volume does not support symlinks"
11:31 < bigred> But my drive clearly does support symlinks
11:33 < bigred> Anyone seen this before?
11:33 < RangerRick> I've heard the problem before, I don't know what/if the solution is
11:33 < RangerRick> you might want to try searching the list archives
11:36 < robilad> is there a way to tell fink to install platform independant dkpgs (say debian) into /sw for example?
11:36 < RangerRick> Melian: fink?
11:36 < Melian> hmm... fink is not Debian. Fink is not Debian. Fink is not Debian. Repeat ;-)
11:37 < robilad> yeah, beside that :)
11:38 < robilad> somehting like fink --do-magic-prefix-tweaking package-that-wants-to-go-to-etc-but-actually-should-go-to-sw-etc.dpkg ?
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11:46 < drm> RangerRick: so if this eventually works, and I want to try it with qt3-mac instead of qt3-x11, can I do that from within fink?
11:50 < drm> i guess you're at lunch, and folks here are headed to dinner, so i'll ask again sometime :)
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12:27 < akh> oops--bigred left before I could answer that no solution is known yet.
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14:14 < xaru> Hello, i'm tryin' to install fink 0.8.0 on my tiger desktop from a package. In the window where i can choose HD to install fink i have error 'you cannot install fink on this volume. This volume does not support symlinks.' I'm using Mac OS Extended (Journaled).
14:15 < xaru> Anybody can help me?
14:15 < newmanbe> Hmm, this has happened with a few people.
14:15 < newmanbe> As far as I know, it does support symlinks.
14:15 < xaru> Google tells nothing..
14:16 < newmanbe> There was a little talk on the mailing list recently, I haven't paid attention to that though.
14:16 < newmanbe> !mailinglists
14:16 < Melian> rumour has it, mailinglists is http://www.finkproject.org/lists/
14:16 < xaru> Ok, i'll check this :)
14:17 < xaru> Hmm.. which mailing list? 
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14:18 < newmanbe> I would check beginners first, then users.
14:21 < xaru> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.os.apple.fink.beginners/16372
14:22 < xaru> But nobody solved this problem
14:22 -!- linuxmaniac [~maniac@249.Red-83-33-143.pooles.rima-tde.net] has joined #fink
14:23 < newmanbe> That is what /me thought.
14:23 < newmanbe> I can't help you anymore. :(
14:28 < xaru> Yh, thanks anyway
14:33 < akh_laptop> xaru:  We don't quite know what's causing it.
14:33 < akh_laptop> Is this 10.4.0 or 10.4.1?
14:33 < xaru> 10.4.1
14:33 < akh_laptop> hmm...
14:36 < xaru> Is it possible to run installer with debug option?
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14:37 < akh_laptop> I'm not sure about what's available in the Installer.
14:39  * akh_laptop will see what happens on my system...
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14:41 < akh_laptop> hmm...works here.
14:41 < akh_laptop> Did you do a clean Tiger install, or upgrade?
14:42 < xaru> Hm.. i bought this PB with tiger installed on. It's clean install I think, but I'm not sure
14:42 < akh_laptop> Yeah, that would count for a clean install.  Interesting....
14:47 < xaru> Can I download fink without installer and do everything by myself?
14:47 < xaru> http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/fink/direct_download/dists/fink-0.8.0/main/source/base/
14:47 < xaru> It's broken link
14:48 < akh_laptop> That's not where you're supposed to do it.
14:48 < akh_laptop> Check on http://fink.sourceforge.net for the source installation instructions.
14:49 -!- Feanor [~astrange@64.207.61.218] has joined #fink
14:49 < akh_laptop> Also, you might try burning the Fink Installer 8.0.pkg file to a CD and see if you can install it from the CD.
14:49 < akh_laptop> (it was kind of suggested in the thread you referenced)
14:49 -!- akh_laptop [~akhansen@jove.psfc.mit.edu] has quit []
14:50 < newmanbe> akh_laptop: Forget source installation instructions
14:50 < newmanbe> akh_laptop: source installation instructions is http://www.finkproject.org/
14:51 < newmanbe> Oops, he left.
14:53 < akh> yeah, yeah
14:53 < akh> Same content.
14:58 < akh> newmanbe: You think akh_laptop is a bot or something.
14:58 < akh> ?
14:59 -!- megahal [~astrange@100-241.35-65.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)]
15:03 < xaru> I burned Fink Installer.pkg on cd and still the same problem
15:04 < akh> Hmm...
15:06 < akh> Not sure then--you _might_ try circumventing Installer.app via a 3rd party .pkg expander.
15:07 -!- att [~att@rrcs-24-123-50-242.central.biz.rr.com] has joined #fink
15:08 < akh> Or work from source.
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15:14 < xaru> akh: Are you there? (maybe you have other nick)
15:14 < xaru> What perl version do you have as /usr/sbin/perl?
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15:27 < cirdan> hey all
15:28 < RangerRick> howdy
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15:34 < cirdan> dmacks.
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15:42 < dmacks> cirdan
15:51 < dmacks> I'm starting to think there's something fishy in some Tiger-usrs' perl.
15:51 < cirdan> ?
15:51 < cirdan> lke what
15:52 < dmacks> Dunno...why would perl symlink() fail but shell "ln -s" succeed?
15:52 < cirdan> not sure
15:52 < dmacks> Do we have anyone who can reproduce the "volume does not support symlinks" installer error that feels like trying somethings?
15:53 < cirdan> give me a perl -e line
15:53 < dmacks> ("Thanks Installer.app for not giving any useful diagnostics!")
15:54 < dmacks> Do you have the Fink-0.8.0 .pkg?
15:54 < cirdan> no
15:57 < dmacks> sudo /usr/bin/perl -e '$dir="//testing";symlink("$dir.tmp", "$dir") ? unlink $dir : print "oops: $!\n";'
15:58 -!- cianhugh1s [~cianhughe@ti.cian.ws] has joined #fink
15:59 < dmacks> (assuming you don't have a /testing file or dir present; yes, there really are two // there:)
15:59 < cirdan> no output
15:59 < cirdan> so it orjed i guess?
15:59 < cirdan> maybe those ppl did an upgrade, not a clean install?
16:00 < cirdan> old perl foo would still be there
16:01 < dmacks> Shuold work with old perl too. And shouldn't be affected by spaces in volume name (though I can't rule that out, and that practice is gonna screw users eventually)
16:02 < cirdan> not if they are rrot vol
16:02 < cirdan> root
16:02 < dmacks> Good point.
16:03 < dmacks> I wonder if they've got screwy perms on / ?
16:03 < cirdan> possible...i guess
16:06 < dmacks> Ah, I do think that would be a problem here. The script appears to run as user (it's before upgrading to root), and it tries to write to /, so if user accidentally gets / as 755 (should be 775) or is as a user not in the "admin" group, can't write there.
16:06 < dmacks> (If an installer.app script crashes, installer treats that as a "success" :/
16:08 < dmacks> Now we just need a live person who has had the problem to check it out...
16:11 < cirdan> dmacks: write to tmp
16:11 < cirdan> ?
16:11 -!- vasi [~vasi@modemcable214.145-70-69.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #fink
16:12 < dmacks> No, it's a volume check not a system check...if volume does not support symlinks, installer silently fails to install all symlink files.
16:15 < xaru> dmacks: I can check this
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16:18 < dmacks> xaru: Great! You have this problem? What does "ls -ld /" say?
16:18 < xaru> drwxr-xr-x   29 root  wheel  1088 Jun 16 21:32 /
16:19 < xaru> xar-pb:~ xar$ id       
16:19 < xaru> uid=502(xar) gid=502(xar) groups=502(xar), 81(appserveradm), 79(appserverusr), 80(admin)
16:19 < bbraun> xar!
16:19 < xaru> yes? ;)
16:19 -!- cianhugh1s [~cianhughe@ti.cian.ws] has quit []
16:19 < bbraun> you have your own channel.
16:20 < xaru> Maybe not _this_ xar
16:20 < xaru> ;]
16:20 < dmacks> heh
16:21 < xaru> It's my first time on freenode, i'm lookin' for help with fink instalation ;). I prefer ircnet ;)
16:21 < bbraun> all the cool people hang out on freenode.
16:21 < dmacks> xaru: Try running Disk Utility (in /Applications/Utilities)...pick your hard drive and select "repair permissions"
16:22  * cirdan ^5s bbraun 
16:22  * dmacks wonders if this is a mistake in the initial install or a new default security feature in Tiger.
16:23 < xaru> It's repairing...
16:23 < bbraun> my tiger install (erase & install) has 1775 root/admin
16:23 < xaru> Done
16:23 < dmacks> xaru: Did it say it fixed / ?
16:24 < xaru> Nope I think
16:24 < xaru> Permissions repair complete
16:24 < xaru> Group differs on ., should be 80, group is 0
16:24 < xaru> Permissions differ on ., should be drwxrwxr-t , they are drwxr-xr-x 
16:24 < xaru> Owner and group corrected on .
16:25 < xaru> Permissions corrected on .
16:25 < xaru> . == / 
16:25 < xaru> ?
16:25 < dmacks> "ls -ld /" will tell us for sure:)
16:25 < xaru> xar-pb:~ xar$ ls -ld /
16:25 < xaru> drwxrwxr-t   29 root  admin  1088 Jun 16 21:32 /
16:25 < xaru> yeap ;]
16:25 < dmacks> Cool. Maybe the Fink installer will work now?
16:26 < xaru> w8
16:26 -!- dreamind [~dreamind@C2107.campino.wh.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #fink
16:26 < xaru> Yeah!
16:27 < dmacks> *phew*!
16:27 < dreamind> hi
16:27 < xaru> Huh, you're right ;]
16:28 -!- cianhugh1s [~cianhughe@ti.cian.ws] has joined #fink
16:28  * dmacks goes to reply to some folks on -beginners/-users
16:29 < xaru> Hehe :-)
16:30 < vasi> wow, a problem that's actually fixed by repairing perms, the unsanity guys are gonna have a heart attack
16:30 < xaru> Maybe write sth in docs because google doesn't cache your mailing lists..
16:30 < vasi> dmacks, why not create the link in /tmp instead of / ?
16:30 < vasi> (the test link i mean)
16:31 < dmacks> vasi: This is a test of the volume one selects, not of one's perl or one's overall system.
16:32 < xaru> dmacks: Thanks a lot :)
16:32 < vasi> oh yeah, oops :-)
16:32 < dmacks> xaru: You're welcome! (and thanks for being our test subject today:)
16:32 < xaru> Hehe :-)
16:33 < dmacks> vasi: I guess we could create a $dir/sw and then create the symlink in there; that way if "create a $dir/sw" fails we know it's a perms problem, tell 'em to fix it before continuing); then can get a symlink test without perm interference.
16:33 < vasi> makes sense
16:34 < dmacks> vasi: I guess really Installer.app should just stop sucking so badly...
16:34 < vasi> there's an idea!
16:35 < dmacks> It'll prolly be a while before a new Fink comes out, in the mean time at least we have a fix.
16:35 < xaru> Ok, I can start learnin` fink now :). 
16:36 < vasi> can't we upgrade a fixed install package at least?
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16:38 < dmacks> Building the .pkg is a truly ugly process.
16:40 -!- org [~orgler@p549EE7DF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #fink
16:40 < dmacks> (the scripts aren't designed for supporting multiple dists, so you gotta manually repatch (or re cvs update) a bunch of files each time.
16:40 < org> hi
16:40 < vasi> ew
16:40 < vasi> hi org
16:40 < org> is there a way to install bundle-gnome as binary on 10.4 ?
16:41 < dmacks> OTOH, something like this we could just patch into the existing .pkg pretty easily perhaps? It's just a script loose in the .pkg, not buried in the .pax or .bom or .whatever-the-hell
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16:42 < dmacks> org: Not at this time.
16:42 < org> is there a workaround? i don't want to compile all the shit
16:43 < dmacks> Some dependencies are certainly available. But gnome2.6 itself didn't get verified for 10.4 in time to get into the bindist.
16:44 -!- cianhugh1s [~cianhughe@ti.cian.ws] has quit []
16:44 < dmacks> Investigate the UseBinaryDist flag in fink.conf
16:44 < dmacks> so it will download binary whenever possible instead of compiling.
16:55 -!- Murr [~neeri@A17-202-20-71.apple.com] has joined #fink
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17:15 < dmacks> So like, is ca.us gonna finally break free of the mainland or what?
17:16 -!- Feanor [~astrange@feanor.developer.opendarwin] has quit []
17:22 < JesseW> well, we have had two earthquakes in two days, but...
17:23 < Murr> hehe
17:23 < Murr> unless we manage to drift out more than 200 miles, we probably can't claim souvereign status
17:24 < Murr> but our navy is bigger  than Nevada's and Utah's combined, so who knows
17:25 < bbraun> hawaii has been trying to claim sovereignty for years, and they're 2000 miles away
17:26 < Murr> ... and quite well armed to boot
17:26 < dmacks> Maybe they oughta form an alliance with Quebec.
17:26 < Murr> heh, the Arcata eye police log is great again
17:26 < Murr> Aloha, eh?
17:27 < Murr> "10:07 p.m. Police went to the D Street Neighborhood Center on a report of people smoking dope at a concert there, suggesting a hitherto-unsuspected link between pot and rock-style music."
17:27 < bbraun> omg!  they found out!
17:27  * dmacks gets access-forbidden on the site:(
17:28 < bbraun> and I'll bet everyone who smokes pot is alive.  I declare a link between living and smoking pot.
17:28 < dmacks> Even better, *only* living people smoke pot, so smoking pot keeps you alive!
17:28 < bbraun> sounds logical
17:28 < dmacks> mutt
17:29 < vasi> nah, Quebec's gonna float down and join Cuba ;-)
17:29 -!- vasi is now known as vasiAway
17:29 -!- vasiAway [~vasi@modemcable214.145-70-69.mc.videotron.ca] has quit []
17:29 < dmacks> Castro don't want 'em until they've got a baseball team.
17:30 < Murr> they had one but lost it
17:30 < Murr> i bet Cuba could totally 0wn hockey if they put resources into it for a few years
17:31 < dmacks> Plus Communists just love the strong workers' union feel:)
17:31 -!- dmacks is now known as dmacks_away
17:31 < Murr> true
17:33 < Murr> "12:24 p.m. The new thing is to declare that your pet is a "service animal" and, health codes notwithstanding, should be allowed inside places like say, a 13th Street marketplace. But a guide cat?"
17:38 -!- You're now known as RangerAway
17:40 -!- org [~orgler@p549EE7DF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["org has no reason"]
17:57 < Murr> "Tuesday, February 1 12:11 a.m. Two million years of societal evolution culminated at the portal of a Ninth Street tavern, where a bartender and doorman were menaced by three men wielding sticks."
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18:20 < mpf> do you recommend uninstalling xcode 2.0 before installing 2.1?
18:21 < pogma> 2.0 -> 2.1 is okay
18:21  * pogma goes to make coffee
18:24 -!- dmacks_away is now known as dmacks
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18:26 -!- hennker [flullup@dsl-082-082-235-027.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["leaving"]
18:26 < dmacks> Anyone know where to get an input tablet 12"x16" or so? Largest I see from the usual places are 9x12.
18:26 -!- TheSin [~TheSin@iphost-64-56-130-194.edm.wiband.net] has quit ["Client exiting"]
18:36 < pogma> http://wacomdirect.wacom.com:80/wacomdirect/product.asp?dept%5Fid=100&sku=XD1218USB
18:38 < dmacks> Ahhh...thanks.
18:51 < dmacks> statico: Instead of forcing use of fink's perl interpretter with a specific version, better to either use a pathless form (so that "any perl5.8.6" will suffice) or else use Apple's perl (and we'll have different packages for each OS X version, localized to the correct perl version).
18:51 < dmacks> Also, you can nuke the whole "eval exec /path/to/perl" entirely, Darwin actually knows how to run scripts correctly:)
18:54 -!- Feanor [~astrange@mp1-248-35.dialup.emory.edu] has joined #fink
18:54 < dmacks> Instead of @PATHTOPERL@ and @PATHTOHELP@ being the complete paths, consider factoring out the different parts, so you only need one tweaking of a common @PREFIX@.
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20:13 < akh_laptop> grrr...stupid Internet
20:14 < dmacks> akh_laptop: Ah...so *there* you are.
20:14 < akh_laptop> yah
20:14 < dmacks> (perhaps you should try one of the other "Internets" Bush talked about)
20:15 < akh_laptop> ?
20:15 < dmacks> (some speech, maybe SotU, he talked about "the Internets")
20:15 < akh_laptop> Ah
20:16 < akh_laptop> It's working really strangely:  I can get apple.com, but nothing else.
20:17 < dmacks> Odd ya.
20:17 < akh_laptop> Ah--getting better.
20:18 < akh_laptop> maybe a router nearby was struck by lightning...
20:20 < dmacks> Bad fast-moving storms came through here ~hour ago.
20:20 < akh_laptop> we just started getting some activity.
20:20 < akh_laptop> hmmm...can't find us.debian.org either.
20:21 < akh_laptop> (temporarily, anyway--I got 12 out of 14 debs before things goofed up)
20:23 < dmacks> The primary solution to "can't crate symlinks" error on one's main disk is "Disk Utilities: 'repair permissions'"
20:24 < akh_laptop> saw it--mail seems to work OK.
20:24 < dmacks> Okay.
20:24 < akh_laptop> (that account comes from NYC)
20:24 < akh_laptop> I forwarded on to -users, since there was a thread there too.
20:25 < dmacks> "the next installer" will probably be smarter about that error.
20:25 < akh_laptop> That'd be good.
20:26 < akh_laptop> Now if Apple would come up with an Installer application that doesn't drop files...
20:26 < akh_laptop> Maybe they could switch to dpkg.
20:27 < akh_laptop> I mean, some of the upstream sites now recognize /sw as a standard OS X directory.
20:27 < akh_laptop> (not actually directly related, but...)
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20:27 < dmacks> Well it is, no? If we could just drop all that buggy cruft in /usr....
20:28 < akh_laptop> And opt/local, too.
20:28 < akh_laptop> (both as listed upstream and as buggy cruft)
20:30  * akh_laptop wonders if there's any Windows on x86 Mac rumors floating around yet...
20:31 < dmacks> Start one.
20:33 < akh_laptop> "Sources at Apple Computer have suggested that the company would discontinue its software division in 2008, in order to focus on its core business, hardware.  An arrangement with Microsoft is said to be in the works."
20:33 < akh_laptop> Mmmm....crappy OS on high-end hardware.  That'd be a real good business model.  ;-)
20:44 < pogma> Hey, a little birdie at Apple told me that they were hard at work making it so that if you installed windows you could run windows apps on Mac OS X/x86 in an environment much like Classic
20:50 < Feanor> i'd think they would annoy less people if they didn't do that, since darwine will get there before they reveal it
21:16 < akh_laptop> heh
21:33 < newmanbe> Little birdies!
21:34 < newmanbe> File Maker, Inc. could just become Claris again.
21:34 < newmanbe> !claris
21:34 < newmanbe> !filemaker,inc.
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21:47 < vasi> To continue dpkg is required, do you want to install it now? [Y/n] 
21:47 < vasi> :-)
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22:25 < htodd> man, I'm going to have to go back to solaris or somethng
22:26 < newmanbe> ¿Por qué?
22:26 < newmanbe> Why?
22:26 < dmacks> I hear SCO is poised to make a come-back...
22:27 < newmanbe> !alicekill SCO
22:27  * Melian I want to kill SCO, I mean, I wanna, I wanna kill SCO. Kill. I wanna see SCO's blood and gore and guts and have SCO's veins in my teeth.  Eat SCO's dead burnt body.  I mean kill, Kill, KILL, KILL.  and I jump around with newmanbe, yelling "KILL, KILL"
22:27 < htodd> !alicekill intel
22:27  * Melian I want to kill intel, I mean, I wanna, I wanna kill intel. Kill. I wanna see intel's blood and gore and guts and have intel's veins in my teeth.  Eat intel's dead burnt body.  I mean kill, Kill, KILL, KILL.  and I jump around with htodd, yelling "KILL, KILL"
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23:11 < bkn> hi, if i run 'fink rebuild <pkg>' will it delete the source in /sw/src/...? I'm trying to fix some bugs in a program and i'd like to use fink to build and install it, but i don't want to have to rebuild the whole thing everytime.
23:12 < htodd> I think it deletes it.
23:12 < htodd> you can install ccache
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23:12 < cirdan> ccache-default ould help speed things up
23:13 < bkn> i thought that was for distributed builds.
23:13 < cirdan> that's distcc
23:16 < bkn> thanks,  for some reason i always thought that it was tied to distcc. sounds like something i should have been using for years ;) 
23:17 < cirdan> if you build the same package more than once, it's great
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--- Log closed Fri Jun 17 00:00:17 2005