--- Log opened Wed Jul 13 00:00:05 2005
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00:04 < vasi> ooh my, none of the builddepends swapping code is in 0.24.x yet?
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00:06  * dmacks has never looked at it.
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00:17 < vasi> dmacks, do you know when drm is back?
00:23 < dmacks> he was taking 4ish weeks total
00:27 < vasi> okie doke
00:31 < vasi> ok, i'm off
00:32 < vasi> later!
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00:45 < dmacks> fg
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06:05 < pRolph> I'm trying to install gnome but it fails :(
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07:57 < hramrach> Hello
07:57 < Melian> hi, hramrach
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08:16 < clueless_n00b> omg:  I just updated to 10.4.2 and updated fink and it says "This system was not released at the time this Fink release was made.  Prerelease versions of Mac OS X might work with Fink, but there are no guarantees." Is it going to destroy my system?
08:17 -!- clueless_n00b is now known as akh
08:17 < akh> ;-)
08:17 < akh> Guess "but it should work" didn't pass muster anymore.
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09:16 -!- You're now known as RangerRick
09:25 < akh> Yay for 10.4.2!
09:25 < akh> (enjoyed seeing gnucash open in < 10 sec)
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09:46 < cirdan> heh
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09:53 -!- jefferai_away is now known as jefferai
09:53 < jefferai> akh: what was the bug that kept popping up that is supposed to be fixed now?
09:53 < jefferai> I heard a lot of packages had problems with the same bug
09:54 < akh> ???
09:54 < akh> That could be an infinite number of bugs.
09:55 < akh> What was fixed for 10.4.2 is slow startup of apps that use dlsym().
09:55 < jefferai> ah
09:55 < RangerRick> you mean the bug specifically fixed by 10.4.2?
09:55 < RangerRick> sldlsym() problems
09:55 < RangerRick> dlsym() problems, that is
09:55 < akh> What was _not_ fixed was a linker-related bug that affects most GTK+ apps.
09:55 < RangerRick> ick
09:55 < RangerRick> didn't know about that one
09:56 < akh> It's in the FAQ:
09:56 < akh> http://fink.sourceforge.net/faq/usage-packages.php?phpLang=en#tiger-gtk
09:57 < hramrach> There is a problem with ruby package.
09:57 < akh> I'll probably change this entry to tell people just to set the environment variable in their login scripts--I've not noticed any problems, and there's a plan to do this as part of fink's environment anyway.
09:57 < RangerRick> oh, that problem
09:57 < jefferai> ah
09:57 < hramrach> In the current state, you can try to install an extension without installing ruby-dev
09:58 < RangerRick> thought that was a dyld problem, not a linker problem
09:58 -!- flautist [errorlevel@12.171.16.136] has joined #fink
09:58  * flautist waves. :)
09:59  * cirdan steals flautist's flute
09:59 < hramrach> This  fails in a weird way: all configure checks fail because they link with -lruby.
09:59 < flautist> Okay, I have all the updates installed for XCode, I have X11 installed, selfupdate finished, and I'm STILL having problems. :P
09:59  * cirdan plays flight of the bumblebee
09:59 < cirdan> :-)
09:59 < akh> flautist: such as?
10:00 < flautist> I edited the config file to add unstable/main and unstable/crypto before I did all the updates. I just tried to do apt-get update, and I got a lot of weird errors.
10:00 < flautist> usataway: Couldn't stat source package list file: unstable/main Packages (/sw/var/lib/apt/lists/_sw_fink_dists_unstable_main_binary-darwin-powerpc_Packages) - stat (2 No such file or directory)
10:01 < RangerRick> !scanpackages
10:01 < Melian> it has been said that scanpackages is http://fink.sourceforge.net/faq/usage-fink.php#packages-gz
10:01 < flautist> They are all something along those lines. :P
10:01 < hramrach> Now if I move the mkmf.rb which is needed for configuring extensions to the -dev package, it is apparent that a piece is missing.
10:01 < RangerRick> flautist: go to that url
10:01 < flautist> except s/usataway/W
10:01 < hramrach> But then it is possible to install new ruby and old ruby-dev, neither of which has the file :/
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10:02 < hramrach> I wonder what breakage is more acceptable.
10:04 < flautist> Okay, I didn't do index and scanpackages.
10:04 < flautist> What do those do?
10:05 < flautist> ugh, I'm getting the same errors when I run 'fink index'
10:07 < flautist> What is going on here?
10:10 < flautist> Can one not use apt-get with unstable packages?
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10:11  * flautist is confused. :P
10:12 < akh> "fink scanpackages" lets apt-get know about your locally built packages.  Switching on the unstable tree means that you have to let apt-get know about unstable/main and unstable/crypto, too.
10:12 < akh> This is a recent change, and should be added to the FAQ entry concerning the unstable tree.
10:12 < akh> Lazy documenters.  ;-)
10:13 < akh> Though for right now, you can't apt-get any unstable packages.
10:14 < akh> (from official channels, anyway)
10:14 < flautist> So, how do I get unstable packages then?
10:14 < akh> You have to build them from source.
10:14 < akh> "fink install"
10:15 < flautist> oh, man... That sounds complicated. :P
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10:15 < akh> Not really--all of the dependencies are _supposedly_ tracked automatically.
10:15 < flautist> so, is it 'fink install packagename'?
10:15 < akh> yup
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10:16 < akh> Which may or may not lead to a series of questions...
10:16 < flautist> fink needs help picking an alternative to satisfy a virtual dependency. The
10:16 < flautist> candidates:
10:16 < flautist> (1)      pango1-shlibs: I18N text handling system convenience package
10:16 < flautist> (2)      pango1-xft2-shlibs: GTK+ - i18n text shared libraries: for XFree86 (>= 4.3)
10:17 < flautist> Does it matter which one I pick?
10:17 < akh> Lemme check:
10:17 < pogma> yes
10:17 < akh> I think (1) may install (2).
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10:18 < flautist> Okay, which should I choose, then?
10:18 < akh> Go for 2
10:18 < pogma> 2
10:18 < dmacks> 2
10:18 < flautist> okay. :)
10:18 < flautist> I got something right! YAY!
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10:18 < flautist> ((2) was my gut instinct.) :)
10:18 < akh> Your instincts serve you well.
10:18 < pogma> eek! looks like lisp!
10:18 < flautist> fink needs help picking an alternative to satisfy a virtual dependency. The
10:18 < flautist> candidates:
10:19 < akh> pogma: heh
10:19 < flautist> (1)      xfree86: Free X11 implementation for Darwin and Mac OS X
10:19 < flautist> (2)      xorg: Free X11 implementation for Darwin and Mac OS X
10:19 < flautist> (3)      system-xfree86-manual-install: Manually installed X11 components
10:19 < flautist> (3)?
10:19 < akh> Do you have the X11 SDK?
10:19 < flautist> yeah, I got that off my OS install disks last night. :)
10:20 < pogma> no, you didn't
10:20 < flautist> I didn't?
10:20 < akh> X11User, yes.
10:20 < pogma> or you got the sdk and not x11
10:20 < akh> Right.
10:20 < dmacks> I guess we should add 10.4.2 to fink-0.24.8's compat list.
10:20 < pogma> dmacks: yes
10:20 < akh> dmacks: yah think?
10:20 < flautist> yeah, X11User sounds right.
10:21 < pogma> you need both X11User and X11SDK
10:21 < pogma> mutt
10:21 < pogma> crap
10:21 < flautist> Okay, so how do I get X11SDK?
10:21 < dmacks> akh: Don't matter to me...I primarily use 10.3.9
10:21 < akh> flautist: It's an optional piece of XCode.
10:22 < flautist> and, more importantly at the moment, which option do I choose for this install?
10:22 < pogma> flautist: your install dvd has an xcode folder, find it and then go for the optional installs
10:22 < akh> dmacks: how retro.  ;-)
10:22 < flautist> pogma: I don't think they do.
10:22 < pogma> flautist: cancel this install
10:22 < akh> flautist: Pick 3, and then your install will stop without building xorg or xfree86.
10:22 < dmacks> :)
10:22 < flautist> I'm on 10.3.9, and I have 3 install CDs and 5 software restore CDs.
10:23 < flautist> install cancelled.
10:23 < pogma> flautist: one of the many cds is an xcode cd
10:23 < flautist> I downloaded XCode from connect.apple.com last night and just did the default install... would X11SDK be in that default install?
10:23 < akh> It's in the disk image--just not part of the default install.
10:24 < flautist> Okay
10:24 < akh> Do a custom install and you'll see it.
10:24  * akh is so glad Apple made the X11SDK part of the default install on Tiger.....not.
10:24 < flautist> Yeah, I found the package. :)
10:24 < flautist> Installing now. :)
10:25 < akh> That should _hopefully_ make fink happy.
10:25 < dmacks> ...and that X11SDK does not appear to depend on X11User. WTF's up wit dat?
10:25 < pogma> dependecies? installer.app ?
10:26 < flautist> Okay, so now that I have X11SDK installed, I should be able to go ahead with my installation of jpilot?
10:26 < pogma> apple?
10:26 < akh> Yup.
10:26 < dmacks> pogma: Ah right...my bad. Actually it does have a built-in mechanism for certain system dependency checks (on 10.4).
10:26 < flautist> (1)      python22: Interpreted, object-oriented language
10:26 < flautist> (2)      python22-nox: Interpreted, object-oriented language
10:27 < cirdan> morning
10:27 < flautist> ?
10:27 < pogma> 1
10:27 < dmacks> Doesn't work right IIRC, and one can only use that .plist mechanism *or* custom scripts to check stuff, not both. Clever:/
10:27 < akh> flautist: 1.  (you have to have X11 anyway for jpilot, so don't bother with -nox)
10:27 < akh> (that dependency should be reworked)
10:28 < flautist> What is -nox?
10:28 < dmacks> flautist: In general "-nox" means "no X11" (i.e., graphics support diabled)
10:28 < pogma> dude, just press return :)
10:28 < flautist> ah, I see. :)
10:28 < dmacks> "-ssl" means "with encryption enabled"
10:28 < akh> cirdan: morning
10:28 < flautist> So, fink will install this for me, and I won't have to do anything else to it, right?
10:29 < dmacks> jswhit finally dropped pythonXX-nox in py24.
10:29 < akh> flautist:  You may possibly have to run "fink install jpilot" again, if there's a build dependency conflict, but yes.
10:29 < akh> dmacks: I noticed the "nonexistent package" erros.
10:29 < akh> errors.
10:30 < dmacks> akh: ?
10:30 < flautist> How will I know if there is a conflict?
10:30 < dmacks> It will tell you "can't continue, here is a conflict: foo vs bar"
10:30 < pogma> so, bruno replied to the chmod 777 thing
10:30 < akh> hmmm
10:30 < pogma> "It certainly is a security vulnerability."
10:31 < akh> Really?
10:31 < akh> ;-)
10:31 < pogma> but he threw it back at me and made it libtool's fault that he had to modify libtool
10:31 < cirdan> heh
10:31 < akh> haha
10:31 < dmacks> heh
10:32  * pogma is sad
10:32 < akh> Isn't that like blaming the victim?
10:32 < cirdan> hehe
10:33 -!- vasi [~vasi@modemcable133.147-70-69.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #fink
10:33 < dmacks> Dude...ya shouldn'ta run into my fist face-first like that.
10:33 < flautist> 'lo, vasi. :)
10:33 < vasi> yo
10:34  * akh wonders if rebuilding koffice will actually result in a working kivio and kspread this time....
10:35 < lisppaste> pogma pasted "bruno" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/9876
10:35 < flautist> So, who are all the bots?
10:35 < flautist> besides Melian
10:35 < dmacks> RangerRick.
10:35 < pogma> pogma
10:35 < pogma> akh
10:35 < flautist> :P
10:36 -!- zizban [~chris@24-52-0-219.sbtnvt.adelphia.net] has joined #fink
10:36 < pogma> zizban
10:36 < zizban> hey pogma
10:36 < dmacks> !zizban say hello
10:36 < zizban> hello
10:36 < flautist> You guys are terrible. :P
10:36 < pogma> greetings zizban-bot
10:37 < akh> But seriously:  megahal (when present), lisppaste, and cmeme
10:37 < cirdan> hehe
10:37 < flautist> You know, you shouldn't be mean to the poor, helpless little newbies. ;)
10:37 < cirdan> cmeme?
10:37 < dmacks> cmeme is the logbot
10:37 < pogma> logbot
10:38 < cirdan> oh
10:38 < pogma> whatever happened to rand?
10:38 < vasi> pogma, so how do we fix this chmod 777 ugliness?
10:38 < dmacks> Good question pogma!
10:39 < flautist> "Couldn't stat source package list file: ......   But the install is still going. :/ Ignore it?
10:39 < akh> flautist: Yes.
10:39 < pogma> vasi: we can unpatch it, we build and install as root and darwin does not relink
10:39 < pogma> vasi: removing lines saying chmod 777 from ltmain.sh will do it
10:40 < vasi> pogma, is this going to be in all future libtools?
10:40 < vasi> or is it just the one package?
10:40 < pogma> vasi: no, it is a gettext local package that is there for a reason that is fairly valid
10:40 < pogma> vasi: and I guess that means that to remove the vulnerability from getttext I am going to have to fix libtool
10:41 < pogma> to relink in a tmpdir rather than the builddir
10:41 < cirdan> pogma?
10:41 < cirdan> didn't get that one line
10:41 < pogma> ./configure; make; su -p someone; make install does not work
10:41 < vasi> thanks for the explanation pogma
10:41 < Melian> no worries, vasi
10:41 < vasi> shut up, bot!
10:41 < akh> pogma: Does this impact --build-as-nobody
10:42 < pogma> sorry, I meant gettext local patch, cirdan
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10:42 < dmacks> I don't think so. --b-a-n does all of ./configure, make, make install as 'nobody'; not just install.
10:43 -!- jefferai [~chatzilla@MINT-SQUARE.MIT.EDU] has joined #fink
10:43 < akh> ah
10:43 < dmacks> Since some CompileScript have been known to write to %p
10:44 < akh> Almost as bad as unlinking /var
10:45 < cirdan> :-)
10:45 < cirdan> !pogmasnack
10:46 < zizban> heh
10:46 -!- zizban [~chris@24-52-0-219.sbtnvt.adelphia.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
10:46 < dmacks> These are sometimes even intentional actions Maintainer has done. (copying/editing/adding(!)/removing(!!) .h and .a files)
10:47 < cirdan> heh
10:47 < cirdan> baad maintainer!
10:47 -!- regeya [~shane@adsl-sp3-cdale176.micgi.com] has joined #fink
10:48 < pogma> note that although there is a potential exploit, it has not yet been, err, exploited
10:48  * akh prepares to spread FUD.  ;-)
10:48 < akh> Since my rumor about Apple switching to Windows on their x86 boxes hasn't gotten any traction.
10:52 < vasi> yeah, cuz everybody knows they're really switching to Solaris
10:52 < pogma> love when someone phones at midnight and hangs up gefore you get to the phone ... NOT! (and caller id says "unknown")
10:53 < akh> ick
10:55 < pogma> wrong number, relative who can't figure out time zones, wierdo, or someones idea of an "emergency", I suppose
10:57 < jefferai> don't rule out the obvious telemarketer
10:57 < jefferai> they *do* call at those times
10:57 < jefferai> and later
10:58 < pogma> my goodness, I'm glad I don't live in jefferai's country
10:59 < jefferai> Fortunately I don't live there anymore either.
11:00 < jefferai> It was a country called St. Louis
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11:04 < cirdan> hehe
11:06 < jefferai> And an overlord named SBC kinda.
11:11 < akh> jefferai: as opposed to the benevolent depotism (hah!) of Verizon?
11:11 < jefferai> That was my cellular provider :-(
11:12 < akh> Ah
11:12 < jefferai> Although now they've switchd
11:12 < jefferai> switched
11:12 < jefferai> So my cellular is Cingular (i.e. SBC) and my landline is Veri...no, wait, I don't have a land line.  Hah!  Take that, Verizon!
11:15 < akh> Sounds like a plan.
11:15  * akh made the idiot mistake of letting my cable company have my cellphone number (to plan for a hookup while I was in the process of moving) and now they call me during working hours on that phone.
11:16  * jefferai made that mistake, but hopfully they'll never call...
11:16 < cirdan> akh: so call them back and change it
11:16 < cirdan> and block that callerid #
11:17 < akh> I could do that--I need to get them to switch off something anyway.
11:18 < cirdan> tell 'em to take $5 off your bill each time they dial your # :-0
11:18 < jefferai> Hah.
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11:19 < kapowaz> hi there
11:19 < Melian> niihau
11:19 < kapowaz> is fink supported under OS X 10.4 ?
11:19 < jefferai> Actually, they missed three appointments, gave me $20 off my bil for each
11:19 < cirdan> yes..
11:19 < kapowaz> and are there any gotchas I'd need to worry about?
11:20 -!- das_ [~das@128.104.18.150] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
11:20 < akh> It claims not to support 10.4.2--but that's not really the case.
11:21 < flautist> When I install a program, does it make an icon somewhere, or must I run it from the terminal?
11:22 -!- jefferai is now known as jefferai_lunch
11:22 -!- Snaggle [~nieder@128.252.206.171] has joined #fink
11:23 < akh> flautist: Most often you have to run it from the terminal.
11:23 < akh> Some few packages produce Mac application bundles.
11:24 < Snaggle> if I want to upgrade a package from gettext to libgettext3, do I just need to change the depends/builddepends to libgettext3-shlibs/-dev?
11:26 < flautist> okay.
11:26 < flautist> So when I open the terminal, do I just type 'jpilot' or do I have to type 'fink' before that?
11:28 < flautist> Couldn't find empty DB file.
11:28 < flautist> jpilot may not be installed.
11:28 < flautist> (jpilot:5998): Gtk-WARNING **: cannot open display:
11:28 < flautist> :P
11:28 < akh> You have to start X11 first.
11:28 < flautist> What's going on there?
11:28 < flautist> ah, okay.
11:28 < flautist> How do I start that?
11:29 < akh> That's an icon--/Applications/Utilities
11:29 < flautist> (I installed the Gimp at one point in time... it started X11 automatically, but it also had an OS X build. :P )
11:29 < akh> They probably scripted it.
11:30 < akh> You could use "open-x11 jpilot" from the OS X terminal.
11:30 < flautist> hey, it worked!
11:30 < akh> If you use the X11 terminal, you might possibly get a "command not found" error.
11:30 -!- zizban [~chris@24-52-0-219.sbtnvt.adelphia.net] has joined #fink
11:30 < flautist> Now to see if it will actually sync. ;)
11:31 < akh> Always a good question.
11:31 < akh> The jpilot version from fink doesn't have native USB support.
11:31 < flautist> it doesn't?
11:31 < akh> It wasn't available.
11:31 < flautist> Then how am I supposed to sync?
11:32 < akh> Grab the TCP/USB bridge program at http://osx-palm-tools.sourceforge.net/
11:32 < Snaggle> with passanger pigeons? ;)
11:33 < zizban> smoke signals
11:34 < akh> When pilot-link-0.12 (with working native OS X USB support) is in full release, we'll probably add it.
11:34 < zizban> usb over tcp...who wudda thunk it?
11:35 < akh> Which, unfortunately, IIRC is incompatible with our jpilot.
11:35 < akh> (pilot-link-0.12, that is)
11:36 < flautist> okay, I downloaded the disk image... now where do I put the program?
11:37 < akh> Anywhere--it's an OSX app.
11:37 < Snaggle> nothing like living in the midwest and seeing a hurricane leftover right overhead in the radar map
11:37 < zizban> heh
11:37 < akh> Snaggle: That'd be unsettling.
11:37 < akh> We're more used to them here.
11:37 < Snaggle> it was neat.  the wind map had the vortex centered directly overhead last night
11:38 < akh> heh
11:38 < Snaggle> when did OSX start doing the 'recovered files' in the Trash crap again?
11:38 < zizban> I have never seen that
11:38 < akh> Hadn't noticed.  Which OS X are you on?
11:39 < Snaggle> 10.4.1
11:39 < akh> That old piece of junk?
11:39 < akh> ;-)
11:39 < RangerRick> hehe
11:39 < zizban> heh
11:39 < akh> Wonder if that's in the 10.4.2 fixes.
11:39 < Snaggle> it started at some point after the Tiger upgrade.  they're all parsedPPD.xx files
11:40 < zizban> oh goody an ozzy osbourne tribute band is coming to town this weekend
11:40 < Snaggle> And whaddayaknow, they look like PPD files too
11:40 < akh> Imagine that.
11:40 < zizban> amazing
11:41 < akh> zizban: heh--we get shows with failed American Idol contestants.
11:41 < Snaggle> anyone have Panther still and want to test an upgrade for me?
11:42 < akh> Snaggle: I do, but not here with me.
11:42 < zizban> heh
11:43 < akh> (firewire disk at home) But if nobody else steps forward and you can wait for a while...
11:43 < flautist> damn. Not working. :P
11:43 < Snaggle> It's firefox 1.0.5.  The upgrade should work w/ no changes except for %v and MD5sum.  I'll send you the new info/patch files when I finish testing the 10.4 build
11:43 < akh> OK.
11:43 < akh> flautist: did you set the port?
11:44 < akh> (or is it 'not working' in some other manner)?
11:44 < flautist> ?
11:44 < akh> In the jpilot preferences you can set the communication port.
11:45 < flautist> okay, what do I set it to?
11:45 < akh> If you've got TCP/USB bridge running properly you should be able to set the port to net:localhost.
11:45 < akh> (without the trailing .)
11:45 < akh> net:localhost
11:49 < flautist> still not working.
11:50 < akh> Do you have 'USB connection type' set to "Serial Emulation"?
11:50 < akh> (in USB-TCP Bridge)
11:51 < akh> And 'TCP Port' set for 14238 ?
11:51 < flautist> now I do. ;)
11:52 < akh> Once you've done that it'll work as well as it can.
11:55 < flautist> ie, not at all. :P
11:56 < zizban> welcome to Obscure Mac App 101
11:56 < zizban> :)
11:56 < flautist> TCP socket status: waiting for connection. :P
11:57 < zizban> ummm, plug your palm pilot in?
11:57 < flautist> It IS plugged in. :P
11:57 < zizban> just checking :)
11:58 < akh> flautist: hit the sync button in jpilot and then use the button on your Palm.
11:58 < flautist> The USB Port Status recognizes that it is plugged in. :P
11:58 < flautist> akh: Did that.
11:58 < flautist> tried it the other way, too.
11:58 < akh> hmm...worked for me just now.
11:58 < akh> (kinda)
11:58 < flautist> Kinda?
11:58 < akh> Yeah--there's some issues with OS5 devices.
11:59 < flautist> Is it supposed to be set to "Listen on USB and TCP port?"
11:59 < flautist> Or "Listen on USB and connect on TCP?"
11:59 < akh> The second
12:01 < flautist> okay, but it's still not working. :P
12:01 < akh> hmmm--works here
12:01 < akh> (I'm running a sync right now)
12:02 < flautist> What should the serial rate be set to?
12:02 < akh> Not sure--I used 9600
12:04 < flautist> Well, everything is correct in the settings, then...
12:04 < flautist> x is giving me an odd error when I start jpilot, though...
12:04 < flautist> Couldn't find empty DB file.
12:04 < flautist> jpilot may not be installed.
12:05 < flautist> What's that supposed to mean?
12:05 < flautist> I remember when I installed jpilot in Linux for the first time (about a year ago) I had these same problems, and I don't remember how I fixed it. :P
12:05 < akh> It may be that the fink jpilot package doesn't create a null database file that jpilot expects.
12:06 < flautist> I installed it on this system a few days ago (in Linux) and it worked perfectly.
12:06 < flautist> Well, I should say that I don't remember how my fiance fixed it... he's the one who did it for me. :P
12:08 < flautist> Are there any other free/open-source programs out there for OS X?
12:08 < akh> For palm communication you mean?
12:08 < flautist> yeah
12:09 < akh> Not really--I've tried pilot-link-0.12 prereleases and they seem pretty solid for native USB support.
12:10 < flautist> But it's not good?
12:11 < akh> I wouldn't say it's not good--it just involves doing builds "by hand".
12:11 < flautist> You say no, but then mention another program... unless I'm misunderstanding something here...... which is entirely possible.
12:11  * flautist == ditz
12:11 -!- ismith [~ismith@12.158.9.239] has joined #fink
12:11  * akh is in stream-of-consciousness mode.  ;-)
12:11 < ismith> i'm not showing any binary packages for xfree86 in finkcommander.  do they really not exist?
12:12 < flautist> Are they unstable?
12:12 < akh> ismith: what OS are you on?
12:12 < ismith> os x
12:12 < ismith> tiger
12:12 < akh> Then, no, they don't exist.
12:12 < ismith> i added unstable/main to /sw/etc/fink.conf
12:12 < ismith> bummer.
12:13 < akh> unstable => no binaries (for now)
12:13 < akh> flautist: I guess what I'm saying is there's no "release" versions of opensource Palm stuff for OS X.
12:14 < ismith> then perhaps y'all could help me with the root of my problem ... i'm trying to install x11, but apple's installer says a newer version already exists.  now, i had a fink version (compiled) installed, but i uninstalled fink and removed /sw.  what am i missing?
12:14 < zizban> it's not in /sw for one
12:15 < zizban> and I believe there is an faq for this
12:15 < zizban> !faq
12:15 < Melian> extra, extra, read all about it, faq is at http://www.finkproject.org/faq/
12:15 < ismith> well, that would do it, i guess
12:15 < akh> sudo rm -rf /Library/Receipts/X11.app
12:15 < Snaggle> !help
12:16 < flautist> Are the pilot-link pre-releases not available in fink, akh?
12:16 < flautist> I don't see it on the package list.
12:16 < flautist> I see pilot-link libraries, but that's it.
12:17 < akh> flautist:  They aren't--the pilot-link people specifically asked the various packagers not to distribute the prerelease version.
12:17 < flautist> so there is nothing I can try without buying something/
12:17 < flautist> ?
12:18 < akh> You _could_ build the pilot-link prerelease (and probably the jpilot developer version) from source manually.
12:18 < akh> That's about it.
12:18 < flautist> I wouldn't know how to do that. :(
12:19 < ismith> i removed /Library/Receipts/X11.app, as well as X11User.pkg in the same directory, but i'm still getting the same error
12:20 < flautist> If there were a very clear, step by step giude somewhere I MIGHT be able to figure it out... otherwise, I'm screwed. :P
12:21 < akh> ismith: typo on my part (but you didn't remove anything bad).
12:21 < flautist> although, from reading on their website, it looks as if they have some OS5 issues, too. :P
12:22 < akh> ismith: Are you installing X11User from the Tiger media?
12:22 < ismith> no, downloaded from apple.com - i dn't have my disks with me right now
12:22 < akh> That's the Panther version.
12:22 < akh> Won't work.
12:23  * ismith wants his pretty yum back
12:23 < ismith> do they have the tiger one online, or am i screwed 'till i get home?
12:24 < akh> I'm afraid it looks like the latter.
12:24 < ismith> why do i feel like i'm back on windows...
12:24 < akh> eww...don't say that.  ;-)
12:25 -!- akh is now known as akh_lunch
12:25 < kalessin> ismith There's always yellowdog linux, if you'd be more comfy with that.
12:25 < kalessin> I think they even use yum.
12:25 < ismith> yeah, i know ... but i came to os x for stability and "just-works-ness"
12:26 < ismith> and i really don't understand why x11 isn't installed by default
12:26 < kalessin> How many mac users do you think will actually need it?  or even know what it is?
12:27 < zizban> because apple doesn't want to encourage developers to make X11 only apps?
12:27 < zizban> that's my wacky theory
12:27 < ismith> yeah, i know - but imagine if apple could just point users to X-based software, rather than having users who want, say, gimp, go through a whole ...
12:27 < ismith> i guess
12:27 < kalessin> Apple's defaults are -really- good for the lowest common denominator.  You're not that.  So the defaults need a little tweaking.
12:28 < ismith> right
12:28 < zizban> there is a self contained gimp app now that just is drag and drop install
12:28 < ismith> but you need x11 first, don't you?
12:28 < kalessin> If it makes you feel better, once you get everything you need off of the OS disks, they go into a closet and stay there pretty much forever.
12:28 < zizban> yepper
12:28 < ismith> kalessin: that's where they are now :-P
12:29 < kalessin> A little quick on the draw with that, then.  :-P
12:29 < ismith> i love os x, but sometimes ... i think i just got too used to having everything online while using x86/linux
12:30 < ismith> consistency, in particular.  i liked the whole drag-n-drop dmg to install, then i realized that some programs still scatter junk all over the filesystem anyway
12:30 < kalessin> Think of it this way: walking from your desk to your closet to get a DVD is a -much- higher bandwidth transfer than using a DSL/cablemodem.
12:31 < kalessin> :-)
12:31 < ismith> heh
12:35 < zizban> unless yuour alh and can suck the huge bandwidth off MIT
12:35 < dmacks> It's still dwarfed by a station-wagon-ful of magnetic tapes.
12:35 < kalessin> zizban well, if I take two minutes to walk to my closet, and it's a 5.4GiB DVD, that's a 360Gb/s transfer rate.
12:35 < zizban> heh
12:35 < akh_lunch> dmacks: Or a trailer full of punchcards.
12:36  * kalessin likes pointless uses of math.
12:36 -!- akh_lunch is now known as akh
12:36 < akh> Is there any other use?  ;-)
12:36 < zizban> my daughter could have done an extra credit math project last year
12:36 < dmacks> akh: Will you please just accept that Bush won Florida already?
12:36 < zizban> I suggested she write why infinity isn't infinite
12:37 < kalessin> zizban It'd just confuse her teachers.  Then they wouldn't give her credit because they couldn't follow her math.
12:37 < zizban> heh true
12:38 < akh> dmacks: Never!
12:39 < dmacks> Then for some class relating to American politics, she can write about this episode in relation to underqualified teachers.
12:39 -!- akh is now known as akh_really_at_lu
12:39 < zizban> heh
12:39 < kalessin> Best when used outside America.  Our teachers don't like evaluations or criticism.
12:40 < kalessin> I should ammend that: our teachers -unions- don't like evaluations or criticism.
12:40 < zizban> no, not really (I'm a teacher)
12:41 < zizban> its a little more complex than that
12:41 < kalessin> Isn't everything?
12:41 < zizban> ya
12:41 -!- z[bandito [~z@cpe-66-8-245-189.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #fink
12:41 < dmacks> Well sort-of.
12:41 < kalessin> I mean, in a perfect world, we'd just fire the bad teachers, pay the good ones more, problem solved.
12:41 < zizban> sure
12:42 < kalessin> Either that or we'd have cranial ports used for downloading courses, and we'd skip the teachers entirely.  :-)
12:42 < zizban> in my experience, I haven't encountered a bad teacher
12:42 < zizban> not yet
12:42 < dmacks> You are a very lucky person.
12:42 < zizban> yes
12:42 < zizban> administrators with their heads up their asses, yes
12:42 < kalessin> Go visit a small town high school, and look for a high level math/science class.
12:42 < zizban> a mayor and city council with no clue, yes
12:42 < kalessin> I've lost -count- of how many things I had to unlearn from courses like that.
12:42 < zizban> that can happen, unfortunately
12:43 < vasi> if you really want to have fun, try religious private schools :-)
12:43 < zizban> during my internship I was sitting in with a special ed teacher who told her students that chistopher columbus sailed from Italy
12:43 < vasi> i spent years brainwashing and un-brainwashing myself :-)
12:43 < dmacks> heh
12:43 < kalessin> vasi At least you've got a nice clean brain.  Mine's still got some cruft in it that I haven't shaken out from public school.
12:44 < kalessin> :-)
12:44 < zizban> I didn't say anything to her since I was new but but that certainly took me aback
12:44 < vasi> who says i've got a nice clean brain?
12:44 < ismith> "they call it ... new math!  new new new math!"
12:44 < zizban> new newest math
12:44 < vasi> zizban, the factual errors i'm less worried about
12:44 < zizban> aye
12:46 -!- vasi is now known as vasiRSI
12:46 -!- vasiRSI [~vasi@modemcable133.147-70-69.mc.videotron.ca] has quit []
12:47 < mcp> good evening
12:48 < zizban> afternoon :)
12:49 < dmacks> Yeah...what he said.
12:50 < kalessin> noon. :-)
12:50 < ismith> almost on the dot
12:50 < kalessin> it's good enough for government work.
12:51 < dmacks> Yeah "it's a time"
12:52 < zizban> bbl
12:53 -!- ismith [~ismith@12.158.9.239] has left #fink ["Leaving"]
12:58 -!- Snaggle [~nieder@128.252.206.171] has quit ["Leaving"]
12:59 -!- Murr [~neeri@A17-202-20-71.apple.com] has joined #fink
13:03 -!- jessealama [~user@c-24-118-133-58.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #fink
13:03 -!- jefferai_lunch is now known as jefferai
13:08  * knghtbrd larts someone for svn and svn-ssl not actually installing the svn command
13:09 -!- emp [~emp@70.57.239.37] has quit ["Leaving"]
13:09 < Murr> think of these packages as vaccination
13:09 < Murr> it's like a smallpox shot not actually giving you smallpox
13:10 < knghtbrd> actually, a smallpox shot does give you smallpox, just in a basically dead state
13:11 < Murr> I thought it was based on a related disease
13:11 < Murr> but you see how appropriate my analogy to the svn package is?
13:13 < knghtbrd> heh
13:18 < kalessin> Murr I remember reading that too, somewhere.  Cowpox, isn't it?
13:18 < Murr> yes, that's what I thought
13:19 < kalessin> Murr But that was when they were first developing vaccinations.  Technology probably changed enough that you actually get cowpox.
13:19 < kalessin> Useless trivia, vaccination is descended from the french word for cow (vacca) for this reason.
13:19 < cirdan> does anyone know if maxtor sells extended warrentys like WD does?
13:19 < kalessin> Or is it Vache in French for cow?  My french is horrific.
13:20 < cirdan> vache
13:20 < cirdan> i'd guess vacca to be latin
13:21 < kalessin> yeah, that makes a little more sense.
13:23 < Murr> yes, that sounds about right
13:23 < Murr> and a "vacation" is when you take some time off to gratify yourself with cows
13:23 < cirdan> exactly
13:24 < cirdan> shortened from vaccation :-)
13:24 < kalessin> You'd think Wisconsin (my home) would be a hotter tourist trap.
13:24 < cirdan> haha
13:24 < dmacks> Current smallpox vaccine is a "live" virus, vaccinia I think.
13:25 < Murr> "Wisconsin: Come for the Cheese, Stay for the Cows"
13:25 < kalessin> See, that's the ploy we're working here.  The waterparks in the Dells are just a place to stash the kids while the parents have the real Vacation.
13:25 < dmacks> ha!
13:26 < jefferai> "Come for the cheese, stay for the steak?"
13:26 < RangerRick> mmm, steak
13:26 < Murr> do your own tenderizing
13:26 < kalessin> evil!
13:26 < RangerRick> just remember, stay away from anyone asking you to "ride the ducks" who doesn't have a WWII truck parked near them
13:26 < jefferai> So..."beat the crap out of a cow!  (and then eat it!)"
13:26 < dmacks> "You had sex with a cow???" "Yeah, I guess you could say I was 'in the mooed'"
13:27 < cirdan> hehe
13:27 < kalessin> RangerRick Y'know, I find it a bit disturbing that businesses in the dells can buy surplus assault vehicles and space stations.  There's just something wrong there.
13:27 < RangerRick> kalessin: what else are we gonna do with 'em?
13:28 < kalessin> RangerRick, I have no idea.  but showing them to tourists just seems -wrong-.
13:29 -!- emp [~emp@70.57.239.37] has joined #fink
13:29 < kalessin> There has to be some actual -use- for those things, aside from fleecing Illannoyances.
13:29 -!- shres [~sshreyas@59.92.142.136] has joined #fink
13:30 < shres> hey everyone
13:30 < RangerRick> FIBs, you mean
13:30 < shres> does any one here know stuff about mac's run time/ dynamic loader
13:30 < RangerRick> some
13:31 < shres> i keep having problems of g_module_open not returning 
13:31 < RangerRick> are you on 10.4.1 or 10.4.0?
13:31 < shres> 10.4.1
13:31 < RangerRick> install 10.4.2
13:31 < RangerRick> there's a bug in dlsym()
13:31 < shres> ah, is there a fix ?
13:31 < RangerRick> 10.4.2  :)
13:32 < dmacks> heh
13:32 -!- euthydemus [~mhough@host86-133-243-185.range86-133.btcentralplus.com] has joined #fink
13:32 < jefferai> Regarding the cows in Wisconson...
13:33 < shres> doh :-), Thanks. 
13:33 < jefferai> You know that there are thirty sheep for every person in New Zealand?
13:33 < jefferai> and sixty sheep for every human male?
13:34 < RangerRick> speaking of fleecing
13:34 < dmacks> Yabut a RealSheep is lots cheaper than a plane ticket.
13:34 < kalessin> lucky human males.
13:34 < Murr> it's surprising that Al Queda is not more active there
13:34 < kalessin> Hmm.  That was remarkably like an application of Goodwin's Law.
13:35 < jefferai> dmacks: true
13:35 < shres> sheep remind me of this http://news.yahoo.com/photo/050709/481/ist80107090158;_ylt=AihYW9jZK9AvllswaGB1p1xPXLoF;_ylu=X3oDMTBia2Jza2VjBHNlYwNnYWxsZXJ5. Hold on to them one sheep jumps and your ratio goes boom 
13:36 < dmacks> Literally.
13:37  * dmacks assumes all the "falling for ewe" jokes have already been made.
13:37 < Murr> if those shepheards have trouble sleeping at night, what are they coing to count?
13:38 < shres> "jumping sheep" duh :-O
13:39 -!- jessealama [~user@c-24-118-133-58.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
13:42 -!- euthydem1s [~mhough@host81-157-63-96.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #fink
13:43 < kalessin> Goodness, #fink.  I've never seen this side of you before.
13:44 < Murr> today is 4-H day on #fink
13:44 < jefferai> that's awesome
13:44 < jefferai> "those that jumped later were saved as the pile got higher"
13:44 < dmacks> ha!
13:44 < Murr> extreme sheep sports
13:44 < jefferai> something to remember next time I'm forced to jump off a cliff with 1499 other beings
13:44 < shres> he he
13:44 < kalessin> So, if all your friends -are- jumping off a cliff, be sure to jump last so they cusion your fall?
13:45 < shres> you would rather jump first :p
13:45 < dmacks> "If you saw everyone else jump off a bridge, would you?" "Sure mom, but I'd make sure to go last."
13:45 -!- newmanbe [~newmanbe@29965ea35b9ba974.session.tor] has joined #fink
13:46  * dmacks wishes we'd had this conversation a few decades ago.
13:46 < newmanbe> Ooh, sounds juicy.
13:46 < newmanbe> !logs
13:46 < Melian> logs are at http://meme.b9.com/cview.html?channel=fink&date=today or http://fink.aquaflux.org (currently down), or http://hollowvoice.org/~ranger/irc_logs/
13:47 < newmanbe> :-p
13:48 < newmanbe> jefferai: Do you have a problem with our cows here?
13:49  * shres does apt-get moo for kicks
13:49 < jefferai> shres: you just don't want to jump in the middle
13:49 < jefferai> Either jump first and get it over with, or last and live and see what happens 
13:49 < jefferai> newmanbe: in Wisconson?
13:49 < dmacks> "We sold our cow...we sold our cow...we have no use...for your bull now."
13:49 < newmanbe> jefferai: Yes.
13:50 < newmanbe> Fink is not Debian, we just use it's logo as the favicon for one of the logging site for our IRC chat room.
13:51 < jefferai> newmanbe: ...no?
13:51 < jefferai> I mean, I'm Californian born and bred, so I know what cheese I like, but I have nothing against Wisconson
13:51 < newmanbe> No, Fink is not Debian.
13:51 < newmanbe> !fink
13:52 < Melian> hmm... fink is not Debian. Fink is not Debian. Fink is not Debian. Repeat ;-)
13:52 < newmanbe> !debian
13:52 < Melian> from memory, debian is not Fink. Debian is not Fink. Debian is not Fink. Please repeat that.
13:52 < newmanbe> jefferai: Good.
13:52  * shres needs to restart to fix his dlsym() for which he spent the whole day fixing "innocent" evolution code
13:53 -!- shres [~sshreyas@59.92.142.136] has quit ["Leaving"]
13:54 -!- euthydemus [~mhough@host86-133-243-185.range86-133.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
13:57 < kalessin> newmanbe So, I'm looking at the fink map, and I'm looking at the google maps API, and I'm thinking about putting those things together.  Does that sound like something interesting to you?
13:58 < kalessin> newmanbe My thought is that I'd write up some javascript goo to send you, and you'd plug in the data.
13:58 -!- shres [~sshreyas@59.92.134.31] has joined #fink
13:58 < newmanbe> No! 
13:58 < newmanbe> I'm melting!
13:58 < newmanbe> I'm melting!
13:58 < kalessin> ?
13:58 < newmanbe> The JavaScript!
13:59 < newmanbe> The Javascript!
13:59 < dmacks> mmm...melted cheese...
13:59 < shres> ladies and gentlemen evolution 2.3.4 finally works on mac os x. All issues fixed :-D
13:59 < dmacks> Holy crap!
14:00 < kalessin> newmanbe I'd try to keep it contained in its little cage.  You wouldn't have to look at it.
14:00 < kalessin> JavaScript: Get Back in your CAGE!
14:00 < dmacks> Are all the dependent packages present and up-to-date-enough?
14:00  * jefferai now has to think about why to use Evolution over Apple's Mail
14:00 < newmanbe> But I don't want to use JavaScript.
14:00 < shres> i had to build libbonbo-2.8 and libgnomeprint-2.8 and libbonoboui ( head) 
14:01 < kalessin> Ok, fair enough.
14:01 < newmanbe> You really couldn't imagine that I am actually physically cringing.
14:01 -!- flautist [errorlevel@12.171.16.136] has quit ["flautist has no reason"]
14:01 < shres> and ofcourse libsuop (head ) , gtkhtml ( head) and evolution-data-server (head)
14:01 < jefferai> oooh, I'll imagine it, because it will give me joy
14:01 < dmacks> libbonobo is 2.10.0 in fink.
14:01 < jefferai> (just kidding)
14:01 -!- z[bandito [~z@cpe-66-8-245-189.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit]
14:01 < kalessin> newmanbe I can image it.  I just picture myself when I think about VBA.
14:01 < kalessin> :-)
14:02 < shres> whats the libbonobo version in gnome-2.12 ?
14:02 < shres> i just fixed an issue on it yesterday :-/
14:02 < jefferai> Have they fixed evolution to allow you to publish events to a web-based calendar?
14:03 < jefferai> instead of just reading them?
14:03 < dmacks> Idunno the correspondence between individual pkg versions and "gnome-2.XX suite"
14:03 < jefferai> (not that iCal can do this...)
14:04 < jefferai> but Sunbird and Korganizer can...
14:04 < shres> jefferai: they are working on it, its targeted to 2.4 release
14:05 < shres> i believe gicmo has already got initial code into cvs
14:05 < jefferai> heh...I should mention they've been working on it for about two years, but...
14:05 < dmacks> vasi and miga were talking about what's in gnome-2.10 and .12 late last week.
14:05 < jefferai> that's not the most serious bug I had with them anyways
14:05 < jefferai> that's just a feature...they had a bug in Evolution where you couldn't actually accept a certificate that wasn't signed by a recognized authority
14:06 < jefferai> it'd pop up a box asking if you wanted to accept it...but they forgot to attach an event handler to "OK"
14:07 < shres> ah, interesting, I am paid to fix those :-O
14:07  * shres hides for cover
14:07  * shres jumps for cover rather
14:07 < jefferai> they probably fixed it a while back
14:07 < jefferai> I sent a nasty bug report
14:08 < jefferai> because it made it completely unusable for me
14:08 < jefferai> (and I didn't have time to hack the code myself)
14:08 < jefferai> (and frankly wouldn't have known what to do)
14:09 < shres> hmmm, good, thats so much better than "grr, i filed it and it still does not work"
14:10  * jefferai can't find his bug in the database, but definitely filed one at some point
14:12 -!- akh_really_at_lu is now known as akh
14:12 < cirdan> rm -rf bug if (submitter==jefferai)
14:13 < jefferai> :-P
14:13 < shres> heh, why not rm -rf bug if (1)
14:14 < jefferai> shres: I found another bug I submitted, with an old email address
14:14 < jefferai> Which hasn't been fixed :-)
14:15 < jefferai> still marked as New, from Evolution 2.0.2  *tsk*
14:16 < shres> bug id ?
14:17 < jefferai> 270119
14:18 < cirdan> 000130
14:18 < cirdan> :-)
14:18 < jefferai> Not too serious one though, so long as you have another program capable of writing an entry to the file, so that Evolution will behave again
14:21 < shres> jefferai: I am mostly a mailer hacker, but i will give this a try when i can 
14:21 < jefferai> don't worry about it
14:22 < jefferai> Even though I can't find the bug...what I would highly suggest looking at is the behavior of the program with unknown certificates
14:22 < jefferai> :-)
14:22  * jefferai wonders if he posted to a mailing list instead of filing a bug, and if that is why he can't find it
14:29 -!- vasi [~vasi@modemcable133.147-70-69.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #fink
14:30 < kalessin> vasi Hello.  I've stumbled upon something interesting in the new fink.  If it asks you to make a numeric choice, and you type in something like "a1", it prints an error, but seems to continue correctly.  It complaines at Fink/CLI.pm line 381.
14:30 < vasi> 1 sec
14:31 < kalessin> No idea if this was in the old fink, I stumbled upon it by accident.
14:31 < vasi> "continue" meaning it asks you again?
14:31 < kalessin> No, it doesn't ask again.
14:32 < vasi> can you paste the output for me?
14:32 < kalessin> !lisppaste
14:32 < Melian> You can use lisppaste to paste errors at http://paste.lisp.org/new/fink , instead of flooding the channel.
14:33 -!- KraMer [~mark@adsl-70-240-229-238.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
14:33 < lisppaste> kalessin pasted "fink-cvs error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/9879
14:34 < vasi> this is from branch_0_24?
14:34 < lisppaste> kalessin annotated #9879 with "result" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/9879#1
14:34 < kalessin> vasi, Yeah.  updated at like 10pm GMT-6 last night.
14:35 -!- Feanor [~astrange@64.207.61.218] has joined #fink
14:36 < vasi> ok, this'll take a minute to check out since i have to re-inject first, i went back to 0.24.99
14:40 < vasi> !seen TheSin
14:40 < Melian> thesin <~TheSin@iphost-64-56-130-194.edm.wiband.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #ispman, 20h 59m 51s ago, saying: 'bbiab'.
14:43 < dmacks> vasi: I haven't found anything else major missing from the branch_0_24<-HEAD porting.
14:43 < vasi> really? wow, i'm amazed if i covered it all :-)
14:43 < dmacks> OTOH, gotta update to recognize 10.4.2
14:43 < vasi> it's not recognized? man....
14:44 < dmacks> I've browsed about 2/3 of the ChangeLog so far.
14:45 < vasi> once we've checked it all out, i'll put together a better changelog, and throw a pre-release tarball/deb at -devel
14:45 < dmacks> RangerRick: glib-2.7.2 builds and passes tests as well as 2.6.5, so I'll unleash it and see if the germans are appeased.
14:45 < vasi> let it sit for maybe a few days of testing
14:46 < vasi> dmacks, oh yeah, i also heartily approve of moving glib to 2.7 if it fixes problems, but maybe have a german test if *before* throwing it at unstable?
14:46 -!- beej [beej@64.237.190.201] has joined #fink
14:48 < vasi> kalessin, apparently this bug is also present in 0.24.7
14:48 < vasi> but it might be good to backport the fix
14:48 < vasi> thanks for noticing it :-)
14:48 < Melian> gern geschehen, vasi
14:49 < kalessin> vasi Than sloppy focus, two terminal windows, and an errant thumb tiwtch.  :-)
14:49 < vasi> yeah :-)
14:49 < dmacks> We do essentially no input validation or sanity checking.
14:49 < vasi> dmacks, in HEAD it says "bad input" or something
14:49 < dmacks> (OTOH, STDIN flush was trivial, once I said "screw you CPAN, I'll figure it out myself"
14:50 < kalessin> go cpan!  :-)
14:50 < vasi> ok, i'll backport the integer-input validation
14:50 < vasi> should i do the stdin flush too?
14:52 -!- jefferai is now known as jefferai_coffee
14:54 < beej> hi, folks.. i'm a fink newbie.  itunes finally annoyed me enough that i wanted to try an alternative.  i'm trying to get amarok running.  after LOTS of iterations of "fink install amarok", i finally have all 200+ packages installed.  but the amarok package only seems to be installing some docs :(
14:54 < beej> !seen RangerRick
14:54 < Melian> rangerrick is currently on #fink.  Has said a total of 169 messages.  Is idling for 1h 20m 37s
14:55 < cirdan> beej: what xcode verison do you have installed?
14:55 < cirdan> 2.0 or 2.1?
14:55 < beej> err... yes! ;)
14:55 < beej> how can i check?
14:55 < cirdan> which
14:55 < cirdan> gcc -v
14:55 < newmanbe> [13:57 17] 	dmacks	So he's a H4X0R trying to play himself off as a newbie so we'll do his [whatever] for him?
14:56 < beej> i was just joking around by answering your "A or B?" question with "yes", btw ;)
14:56 < newmanbe> Oopsies.
14:56 < cirdan> riight
14:56 < cirdan> blame it on dmacks...
14:56 < dmacks> (relax folks...that doesn't pertain to #fink)
14:56 < cirdan> !punish newmanbe 
14:56 < beej> gcc version 4.0.0 20041026 (Apple Computer, Inc. build 4061)
14:56 < beej> whatever came with tiger, i guess...
14:57 < cirdan> try installing xcode 2.1
14:57 < cirdan> you have 2.0 installed
14:57 < beej> k.. is 2.1 on the tiger dvd?
14:57 < beej> or?
14:57 < cirdan> no
14:57 < akh> connect.apple.com
14:57 < cirdan> you must d/l it
14:57 < beej> thanks!
14:57 < Melian> beej: de nada
14:58  * akh thinks that Melian is performing a service by making sure thanks are acknowledged.
14:58 < newmanbe> Bad Melian!
14:58 < akh> Yeah, that's the ticket...
14:58 < newmanbe> How many times have I told you to not take credit for things you haven't done?
14:58 < akh> _She_ didn't paste /privmsg stuff in the main channel...
14:59 < cirdan> hehe
14:59 < dmacks> ha
14:59 < newmanbe> No, she's done it the other way around.
15:04 -!- mode/#fink [+o cirdan] by ChanServ
15:04 <@cirdan> phear.
15:04 -!- cirdan changed the topic of #fink to: Have a question? Check the FAQ: http://fink.sf.net/faq || Latest Installers: 0.6.4 (10.2), 0.7.2 (10.3), 0.8.0 (10.4) || Fink 0.24.7: Carina || Where Green porters get RED
15:04  * newmanbe goes to change the topic in fink@conference.jabber.org .
15:05 < newmanbe> To add the last part or not? That is the question.
15:06 < newmanbe> Aww, what the heck.
15:06 -!- mode/#fink [-o cirdan] by cirdan
15:06 < cirdan> :-)
15:06 < cirdan> maintainers is too long
15:07 < RangerRick> beej: it's a bug in the package
15:07 < RangerRick> the short-term fix is to do "sudo gcc_select 3.3"
15:07 < RangerRick> the long-term fix is to wait for me to fix it  ;)
15:07 < newmanbe> Someone joined fink@ and asked if I spoke Arabic.
15:07 < cirdan> RangerRick: what build is the bad one?
15:07 < newmanbe> With the username of hussien.
15:07 < cirdan> that kde ppl dont like?
15:07 < cirdan> newmanbe: hah
15:07 < newmanbe> [07/10@15:36] hussien: i am sorry i don speak english
15:07 < RangerRick> hm, ok, I'm confused
15:08 < RangerRick> I got a report of the amarok package using my funky cache thing
15:08 < RangerRick> but that's only in experimental I think
15:08 < cirdan> !lilosmite maxtor
15:08  * Melian wallops maxtor with a main rotation server that needs rehubbing.  It won't take long.
15:08 < newmanbe> Join fink@conference.jabber.org to get the rest of the scrollback!
15:08 < cirdan> RangerRick: cache thing?
15:08 < RangerRick> I made a version of kde-admindir that sets a bunch of default ac_cv_foo values for configure
15:08 < RangerRick> :)
15:08 < cirdan> ah
15:09 < cirdan> the one from jfm?
15:09 < cirdan> hmm, you said somehting about a new admin dir when i told you the bugs in control center
15:09 < RangerRick> yeah, but this isn't that admindir
15:09 < cirdan> maybe something escaped :-)
15:10 < RangerRick> this is a new new admin dir
15:10 < cirdan> o
15:10  * cirdan just sent a nasty email to maxtor
15:11 < newmanbe> I thought there really wasn't such a company as Maxtor. That's just what they used for the name in the hardware.
15:11 < dmacks> vasi: I just fixed (I think) some silliness in the STDIN-flush
15:12 < dmacks> If someone besides me says "it works", feel free to backport it.
15:12 < cirdan> newmanbe: no, there is
15:12 < cirdan> they bought seagate too, though :-/
15:12 < cirdan> their hw sucks, return policy is just as bad
15:12 < cirdan> and only 1 year warrenty on everything
15:13 < newmanbe> Do they contaminate the SCSI market?
15:13 < cirdan> but that's long enough for a drive to die twice
15:13 < cirdan> newmanbe: not really
15:13 < cirdan> mainly ata/sata
15:13  * newmanbe wanst SCSI. *SOBS*
15:13 < newmanbe> s/wasnt/wants/
15:13 < cirdan> newmanbe: my printer has a scsi drive :-)
15:13 < cirdan> i put a seagate barracuda in it
15:14 < cirdan> the bitch has a 57year MTBF :-)
15:14 < akh> Nice
15:14 < cirdan> yeah, 1,000,000 hrs.
15:14 < newmanbe> cirdan: As the self-appointed Anti-Violence/Profanity Director for the Peer-Directed Projects Center, I must place you under arrest.
15:14 < cirdan> my printer is pimped
15:14 < dmacks> So if you plug it into a 220V line, can you get double the transfer rate and still get >25 years' use out of it?
15:14 < cirdan> !kick newmanbe 
15:15 < cirdan> !kick newmanbe #fink
15:15 < newmanbe> I will never be defeated!
15:15 < cirdan> !kick #fink newmanbe 
15:15 < cirdan> hmm
15:15 -!- mode/#fink [+o cirdan] by ChanServ
15:15 -!- mode/#fink [+o Melian] by cirdan
15:15 <@cirdan> oo-hoo
15:15 < newmanbe> Melian would have to be op-ed for that to work.
15:15 <@cirdan> :-)
15:15 <@cirdan> wanna try it?
15:15  * newmanbe disrupts Melian's Internet connection.
15:15 < newmanbe> Or I could kill services.
15:15 -!- cirdan was kicked from #fink by Melian [Melian]
15:16 < vasi> ?
15:16 -!- cirdan [~chris@pcp04356153pcs.glstrt01.nj.comcast.net] has joined #fink
15:16 < akh> lol
15:16 < newmanbe> lol
15:16 < cirdan> /msg Melian kick * #fink
15:16 < akh> !test
15:16 <@Melian> No, akh, you're not online any more.
15:16 < akh> awww
15:16 < newmanbe> /msg Melian kick Melian #fink
15:16 < vasi> ??
15:16 < cirdan> hah, that should kick the person after saying that
15:17 < newmanbe> Or do nothing.
15:17 < cirdan> no, you're not online *kick*
15:17 < cirdan> cool...
15:17 < cirdan> !wtf iirc
15:17 <@Melian> no binary found.
15:18 < cirdan> haha
15:18 < cirdan> aww
15:18 < vasi> cirdan, kindly stop the bot from taking credit for everything
15:18 -!- mode/#fink [+o cirdan] by ChanServ
15:18 < newmanbe> If I recall correctly, iirc means if I recall correctly.
15:18 -!- mode/#fink [-oo Melian cirdan] by cirdan
15:18 < cirdan> i'll try vasi
15:18 < dmacks> When fink runs under FCommander, is there a controlling terminal?
15:18 < vasi> oooh good question
15:18 < newmanbe> No control at all. :-p
15:18 < cirdan> dmacks: no
15:19 < cirdan> it uses pipes
15:20 < dmacks> Hmm. Good thing I forgot to write any error-handling for tcflush() then.
15:20 < newmanbe> Partial power failure!
15:20 < newmanbe> Odd.
15:20 < newmanbe> Just not this side of the room/house.
15:20 < cirdan> dmacks: well, i'm pretty sure it does
15:21 < newmanbe> And then it when back on.
15:21  * newmanbe goes to investigate.
15:21 < newmanbe> went*
15:22 < newmanbe> megahal: Why did part of the power go out?
15:22 < dmacks> Okay, it appears to be a silent failure if called on a pipe, so no harm.
15:22 < vasi> yay
15:22 < newmanbe> !party
15:22 < Melian> I love parties! I'll invite everyone I know!
15:23 < cirdan> heh
15:23 < cirdan> heh
15:23 < Feanor> hm, megahal's down
15:23 < Feanor> that's odd, it was moved to an extremely stable server
15:23 -!- newmanbe [~newmanbe@29965ea35b9ba974.session.tor] has left #fink ["This setback in computing brought to you by SCO Group."]
15:23 -!- newmanbe [~newmanbe@29965ea35b9ba974.session.tor] has joined #fink
15:23 < newmanbe> Very stable?
15:24 < dmacks> Even SF servers and IIS are stable...when they're off...
15:24 < cirdan> no, very *stale*
15:24 < vasi> hard to believe anything running megahal can stay stable
15:24 < newmanbe> dmacks: Would you trust an airline that uses Microsoft Internet Information Server?
15:24 < cirdan> hah, no
15:25 < newmanbe> If it really was an Internet Information Server, it would use Gopher.
15:25  * cirdan dist-upgrades...
15:26 < Feanor> vasi: megahal itself probably crashed, since the code itself is pretty bad, but the server it was running off could take slashdot loads
15:27  * newmanbe wants it!
15:27 < newmanbe> Both megahal and the server.
15:27 < Feanor> http://astrange.ithinksw.net/tools/hal.txt
15:28 < Feanor> that won't run unless you remove bloodandcoffee from the server list
15:29  * dmacks thought megahal was already used for the all the /. comment pages.
15:30 < kalessin> dmacks Megahal is supposed to be an AI, isn't it?  I think slashdot stuff is written by an AS bot (Artificial Stupidity).
15:30 < akh> Thought that was plain old NS, personally.
15:30 < dmacks> Good point. Nothing that stupid could be considered "Natural" I guess.
15:32 < kalessin> akh good point.  why develop a stupid bot, when you can just wait for stupid people to do the work for you.
15:32 < akh> yup
15:33 -!- Albie [~ambs@bl5-164-23.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #fink
15:36 < akh> stupid people work cheap.
15:37 < dmacks> That's one of their first identifying features.
15:37 < akh> Wait--I'm in academia...
15:37 < dmacks> Then all you gotta do is distinguish them from grad students.
15:38  * akh was more concerned with my own pitifully inadequate salary.
15:39 < lisppaste> dmacks pasted "Today's PT quote-of-the-day" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/9881
15:39 < akh> That hits home.
15:41 -!- kalessin [~crhalpin@adsl-68-78-232-23.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
15:42 < shres> FWIW http://photos23.flickr.com/25746932_66488be056_o.png
15:42 < akh> What a tease.  ;-)
15:43 < newmanbe> How long it take you to doctor that?
15:43 < dmacks> Okay, hands-up everyone who tried to drag the About box out-of-the-way to see the rest of the Subject column.
15:44  * cirdan wishes elinks (in konsole) would open a new tab, not a new window
15:44 < akh> haha
15:44 -!- kalessin [~crhalpin@adsl-68-78-232-23.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #fink
15:44 < dmacks> cirdan: Can you not tune that functionality?
15:44  * dmacks knows jack about elinks:(
15:45 < cirdan> dmacks: i very much doubt it
15:46 < cirdan> konsole would need a command like konsole-new that would open a new tab in the current konsole window
15:46 < cirdan> would rock, though
15:46 < newmanbe> It's FOSS, do it yourself.
15:47 < dmacks> Oh, I thought you were talking elinks tabs, not konsole tabs.
15:47 < cirdan> newmanbe: get to work
15:47 < cirdan> :-p
15:47  * newmanbe doesn't use KDE anymore.
15:47 < cirdan> !trout newmanbe 
15:47 < cirdan> !troutslap newmanbe 
15:47 < cirdan> hmm
15:47 < cirdan> !fish newmanbe 
15:47 < cirdan> !fishslap newmanbe 
15:48 < cirdan> grr
15:48 < newmanbe> !slap cirdan
15:48 < newmanbe> !lilosmite trouts
15:48 < newmanbe> Melian?
15:48 < newmanbe> !test
15:48 < akh> Ah
15:49 < cirdan> Melian: test
15:49 < dmacks> !botsmack
15:49 < akh> OMG, they killed Melian!
15:49 < kalessin> You Bastards!
15:50 < cirdan> !lart the bastards
15:50  * Melian shoots the bastards in the head
15:51 < akh> She's not quite dead...
15:51 < newmanbe> The larts seem to be built in.
15:51 < akh> !faq
15:51 < akh> yup
15:51 < cirdan> the larts are
15:51 -!- Melian [~blootbot@pcp04356153pcs.glstrt01.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["adios amigos"]
15:53 < akh> now all we can do is ask lisppaste its URL.
15:53 -!- Melian [~blootbot@pcp04356153pcs.glstrt01.nj.comcast.net] has joined #fink
15:53 < akh> phew
15:54 < akh> !botsnack
15:54 < Melian> akh: thanks
15:54 < cirdan> Melian: hug akh 
15:54 < cirdan> !comfort akh 
15:54 < Melian> There, there, akh.  It's OK.  I'm here for you.
15:55 < akh> wow--scanpackages goes so much quicker with apt-ftparchive installed.
15:55 < cirdan> ytup
15:55 -!- xhrl [~ThomasW@24.80.39.250] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)]
15:55 < newmanbe> Even one second faster would be better!
15:56 < newmanbe> Wait, is that same thing as updating the package database?
15:56 < cirdan> no
15:56 < cirdan> fink scanpackages
15:56  * newmanbe guessed that.
15:57 < akh> The PDB is another matter.
15:59 < akh> ( /me still wonders about the entity who actually subscribed to fink-auto-logs )
15:59 < cirdan> heh
15:59 -!- kalessin [~crhalpin@adsl-68-78-232-23.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit ["."]
16:00 < akh> it's on all of the public lists.
16:02 < akh> even gnome-core
16:03 -!- akh is now known as akh_gone
16:03 < dmacks> I'm gonna investigate it...
16:07 < shres> goodnight guys, thanks for all the fish.
16:07 < shres> err, i mean sheep talk
16:07 -!- shres [~sshreyas@59.92.134.31] has quit ["Leaving"]
16:08 < cirdan> baaa
16:17 -!- jefferai_coffee is now known as jefferai
16:17 < newmanbe> dmacks akh: It's not gmane?
16:21 < dmacks> newmanbe: No.
16:24 -!- wyvern [~wyvern@happy-hardcore.ST.HMC.Edu] has joined #fink
16:26 < wyvern> How do I specify that I want to install the unstable version of something?
16:26 < wyvern> I need svn 1.2, and 1.14 is ... old.
16:28 < dmacks> !unstable
16:28 < Melian> somebody said unstable was http://www.finkproject.org/faq/usage-fink.php#unstable , or at http://www.finkproject.org/faq/usage-fink.php#bindist
16:28 < wyvern> thanks.
16:28 < Melian> wyvern: bitte
16:28 < dmacks> You enable unstable. Fink always picks the highest available version (from among your chosen trees)
16:28 < wyvern> ah, i see.
16:29 < wyvern> i was gonna say, i saw that, and that's not the problem...
16:29 < dmacks> Dear lists.sf: You suck. Massively. Like a black hole, only more-so.
16:31 < RangerRick> hehe
16:32 < wyvern> by the way... do any of you guys use iTerm
16:32 < dmacks> User is having trouble getting messages through, but it's pretty hard to test things when the lag sender->SF and SF->receivers are each "somewhere between 2 seconds and 8 hours"
16:33 < RangerRick> wyvern: I do
16:34 < wyvern> RangerRick: i just downloaded it last night on a whim (I wanted tabbed terminals, similar to the functionality that fluxbox gives me with its tabbing)
16:34 < wyvern> it's, well, really freaking slow
16:34 < RangerRick> I built it from hand on tiger and it seems snappier
16:34 < RangerRick> but it is a little slow, yes
16:34 < wyvern> I type very fast, and the text lag is significant if I go too fast
16:36 < wyvern> i don't understand why they have so much trouble with text input
16:36 < wyvern> it's the only app I've used (other than some java stuff) that has that problem
16:37 < wyvern> is there an irc channel for iterm so that I can talk to the developers? Or do I have to *gasp* use email
16:40 < wyvern> hm. standard terminal is 80x24, right
16:42 < jefferai> wyvern: think so
16:42 < dmacks> yup
16:43 < dmacks> There is no known "iterm" channel on any general-use public IRC network.
16:47 -!- Albie [~ambs@bl5-164-23.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving"]
16:52 -!- wyvern [~wyvern@happy-hardcore.ST.HMC.Edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
17:06 -!- Lawjoskar is now known as LawjoskarAway
17:10 -!- Snaggle [~nieder@128.252.206.171] has joined #fink
17:10 -!- Snaggle [~nieder@128.252.206.171] has quit [Client Quit]
17:12  * zizban yawns
17:14 -!- jefferai [~chatzilla@MINT-SQUARE.MIT.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
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17:24 -!- akh_gone [~akhansen@ldx3.psfc.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)]
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17:29 < vasi> damn, FinkCommander can be really super slow with the new indexing
17:29 < dmacks> Does it not call it using the correct API?
17:30 < vasi> it tries to get all the descriptions at startup
17:31 < vasi> rather than on-demand
17:31 < dmacks> Ah yeah, that'd be slow.
17:31 < vasi> i'm profiling a bit so i can figure out how to fix things
17:31 < dmacks> Start by shooting FC in the head?
17:32 < vasi> wasn't there someone who wanted to build a new GUI with one of the Perl<->Cocoa bridges or something?
17:33 < vasi> hmm, Devel::DProf is slow
17:34 -!- euthydem1s [~mhough@host81-157-63-96.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit []
17:34 -!- zizban [~chris@24-52-0-219.sbtnvt.adelphia.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
17:38 < vasi> well, the damn thing wants tree, section, short/long description
17:38 < vasi> and infofile
17:39 < vasi> damn...
17:42 -!- vasi is now known as vasiRSI
17:43 < newmanbe> RSI?
17:43 < newmanbe> !wtf rsi
17:43 < Melian> no binary found.
17:43 < newmanbe> The real version doesn't know either.
17:49 -!- You're now known as RangerAway
17:50 < newmanbe> If I removed /Developer/, could I still build things from source?
17:53 < dmacks> newmanbe: Almost everything, yes.
17:53 < newmanbe> Rarely ever use it anymore.
17:54 < dmacks> I think a few of the pkgs that use xcode to build may need parts of it. 
17:55  * newmanbe sadly hasn't use Fink in awhile either.
17:57 < dmacks> You can surely nuke the doc stuff...On my (1.3) box, ADCRefLib+Examples consumes ca. 90% of the space.
17:57 < dmacks> *10.3
18:00 < newmanbe> Gah, the Trash Can is so stupid!
18:00 < newmanbe> I want everything erased immediately!
18:00 < newmanbe> I am the user!
18:00 < newmanbe> I know what I want!
18:00 < newmanbe> Now I have another ~15GB back.
18:00 < dmacks> Attach an AScript to .Trash that rm's the files?
18:00 < newmanbe> All because the trash can was fuller than I thought.
18:01 < dmacks> Check /cores, and user and system CrashReporter folders.
18:01  * newmanbe hasn't read any of the lists in a few days and goes to do so.
18:05 < dmacks> Deleting your .Trash and recreating it as a symlink or Finder alias to /dev/null is an interesting thing to try...
18:16 < dmacks> Okay, who kill't gmane.
18:19 -!- dmacks is now known as dmacks_away
18:25 -!- kalessin [~crhalpin@adsl-68-78-232-23.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #fink
18:31 < cirdan> dmacks_away: heh
18:31 -!- vasiRSI [~vasi@modemcable133.147-70-69.mc.videotron.ca] has quit []
18:31 < cirdan> what happens?
19:12 -!- kalessin [~crhalpin@adsl-68-78-232-23.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit ["."]
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19:37 < joelmichael> can i install from source so i use /usr/local as my path but still use apt-get?
19:42 < cirdan> no
19:42 < cirdan> and don't use /usr/local
19:42 < cirdan> you will fail
19:42 < joelmichael> give me one good reason not use /usr/local
19:42 < cirdan> read the faq
19:43 < joelmichael> yes i've read the "reasons"
19:43 < cirdan> it lists several
19:43 < joelmichael> such as it being in the default path.  which is a) not the case since tiger b) not really a bad thing
19:43 < cirdan> i'm just letting you know that you are setting yourself up for failure
19:43 < cirdan> the default path is more than $PATH, fyi
19:43 < cirdan> it is a really bad thing for something like fink
19:43 < joelmichael> freebsd uses /usr/local and they don't strike me as the pinnacle of insecurity
19:43 < cirdan> this is not freebsd
19:44 < joelmichael> unstability rather
19:44 < cirdan> just letting you know it will fail, and you won't get any sympanthy from here
19:44 < joelmichael> why will it fail though
19:44 < joelmichael> does fink just not support paths besides /sw ?
19:44 < cirdan> it supports anything except /usr/local and /
19:45 < joelmichael> if so, they shouldn't bother asking what path i want to install into
19:45 < joelmichael> i typed /usr/local and it gave me lip but let me do it
19:45 < cirdan> right
19:45 < cirdan> we wont stop you
19:46 < cirdan> but we don't support it either
19:48 < joelmichael> reason one is 'third party software'.  which is basically what fink IS so i don't mind putting it in /usr/local
19:49 < joelmichael> reason two is the default PATH which, as i said, is no longer true
19:49 < cirdan> it's still in gcc's path
19:49 < joelmichael> reason three is the compiler thing, which it acknowledges itself is a "welcome convenience"
19:49 < cirdan> among other things
19:51 < cirdan> /usr/local isn't so much for 3rd party software, it's a place for the local admin to put custom apps, esp. ones to override default supplied apps
19:51 < joelmichael> /usr/local is the default prefix for nearly everything
19:52 < joelmichael> were i using debian or gentoo or any other system with built-in package management, it would install in /usr
19:54 < joelmichael> i've been using darwin ports until today, but they have so many broken packages i just can't stand it any longer
19:54 < cirdan> dp installs /opt
19:54 < joelmichael> can't build ruby, can't run apache2 with php4, can't build php with postgresql support -- fairly ludicrous
19:55 < joelmichael> by default, yes
19:55 < cirdan> same reason they moved from /usr/local
19:55 < cirdan> if you install an app the same name as a builtin, you can break your system
19:56 < joelmichael> that would indeed potentially be the case if /usr/local were in the default path which it is not
19:56 < cirdan> depending on the command and how much the verison you installed differed
19:58 < cirdan> sudo grep -r /usr/local /etc
19:59 < cirdan> that matches...
20:00 -!- vasi [~vasi@modemcable133.147-70-69.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #fink
20:00 < joelmichael> indeed, /etc/daily does appear to look into /usr/local
20:00 < cirdan> hey vasi 
20:00 < vasi> hi :-)
20:02 < cirdan> what's up?
20:02 < vasi> FinkCommander sucks with Fink HEAD
20:02 < vasi> gotta figure out how i want to deal with that
20:02 < cirdan> what does wrong?
20:02 < cirdan> goes
20:03 < vasi> it's slooooooow
20:03 < cirdan> heh
20:03 < vasi> because Fink HEAD is optimized for "we need info for a few packages"
20:03 < cirdan> why worry? 0.24 is so far from HEAD it'll never be close :-)
20:03 < vasi> but FinkCommander wants to have *all* the info all at once
20:03 < cirdan> ah
20:03 < cirdan> how about fixing FC?
20:04 < vasi> well it really does need all the data all at once, so it can sort the package table for example
20:04 < cirdan> hmm
20:04 < vasi> so the question is, how can fink be modified to allow FC to do its thing
20:04 < cirdan> new acessor methods?
20:04 < vasi> probably i'll need to add a special cache-file
20:05 < cirdan> hmm
20:05 < cirdan> that'll work, but if the cache is stale?
20:05 < vasi> presumably indexing will update the cache :-)
20:05 < cirdan> :-)
20:05 < vasi> but it's still Seriously Difficult
20:05 -!- _Lars__ [~Lars@38.Red-80-32-22.pooles.rima-tde.net] has joined #fink
20:06 < vasi> (tm)
20:06 < cirdan> vasi: a sqllite cache?
20:06 < vasi> actually sqllite is probably a bad idea, because inserts are slow
20:06 < cirdan> hmm
20:06 < cirdan> sucks
20:06 < _Lars__> hi, I am trying to install fink on Darwin x86 8.1.0, but got many errors...
20:06 < vasi> on a fresh index, we'd have to do something like 100,000 inserts, which takes a while
20:07 < vasi> Lars, we have some users who have things working on x86
20:07 < vasi> talk to msachs if you see him
20:07 < _Lars__> I read to execute ./bootstrap.sh
20:07 < vasi> yah
20:07 < vasi> cirdan, i should test out sqllite again though, maybe i can optimize things sufficiently
20:08 < cirdan> vasi: right, only a fresh install would be so slow
20:08 < cirdan> i think
20:08 < _Lars__> ok, I will look for msachs. I guess OSX does not need to be installed, right ?
20:08 < cirdan> no
20:09 < _Lars__> does fink work on standard open darwin ?
20:09 < cirdan> it can
20:11 < cirdan> i know darwin8 support is kinda sketchy
20:11 < _Lars__> yup
20:12 < _Lars__> is there a darwin irc chanel ?
20:12 < cirdan> not really
20:12 < vasi> #opendarwin
20:12 < _Lars__> sure... ops
20:13 < _Lars__> thx
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20:26 < vasi> hmm, it looks like sqlite may even be reasonable
20:28 < cirdan> what about using sqllite for us?
20:28 < cirdan> if we use it anyway...
20:29 < cirdan> unless you only wanna update the sqllite db if fink is called as fink index-sql
20:29 < newmanbe> For the local-pdb?
20:30 < cirdan> local index
20:30 < newmanbe> Yes, same thing.
20:33 < vasi> no, that's too hard
20:33 < vasi> brb
20:33 < vasi> if we were writing fink from scratch, that might be doable
20:34 < cirdan> a DBI backend would rock :-)
20:34 < vasi> but we already have a lot of places in fink's code that do hash-accesses on PkgVErsion objects
20:34 < vasi> eg: $pv->{_version}
20:34 < cirdan> right ;-/
20:35 < vasi> it's POSSIBLE to intercept those and send them to a DB, i even have code for that on some long-forgotten branch in CVS
20:35 < vasi> but it's slooooow, because we have to obey perl semantics
20:35 < vasi> another problem with sqlite is that its locking mechanism isn't good enough
20:36 < vasi> ie: if you run 'fink install bundle-kde', then 'fink selfupdate', then 'fink install bundle-gnome'
20:36 < vasi> the selfupdate will have to modify the index, but the bundle-kde install will need to keep the old version
20:36 < cirdan> hmm
20:37 < cirdan> thats for fink 2.0 :-)
20:37 < cirdan> or 1.5 at least
20:37 < vasi> well right now, we're ok with that situation :-)
20:37 < cirdan> hehe
20:37 < vasi> but with sqlite we would not be, unless we came up with some amazing solution
20:37 < vasi> that's your job :-P
20:39 < vasi> for a FC cache, we can kinda get around these issues, because FC never has to hold on to the local pdb....
20:40 < vasi> it just grabs a whole ton of data, and that's it
20:40 < vasi> so it should be possible to create a special cache for this kinda thing
20:41 < vasi> with special cache loaded, access to all packages would be faster, BUT: accessing many fields would yield undefined behavior AND: the cache would have to be unloaded quickly
20:47 -!- vasi is now known as vasiRSI
20:49 -!- _Lars__ [~Lars@38.Red-80-32-22.pooles.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
20:56 -!- beej [beej@64.237.190.201] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
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21:01 -!- akh [~akhansen@ldx3.psfc.mit.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
21:01 -!- akh_gone is now known as akh
21:01  * akh reads the logs
21:01 < akh> Fink 2.0?  That's crazy talk.  ;-)
21:14 < joelmichael> ok i just installed the fink binary distribution in /sw as normal
21:14 < joelmichael> i updated and installed apache2
21:14 < joelmichael> i went to install php
21:14 < joelmichael> and it said it couldn't find the package.
21:14 < newmanbe> !pdb
21:15 < Melian> The package database can be found at http://www.finkproject.org/pdb/ .
21:15 < joelmichael> right
21:15 < joelmichael> i went there.
21:15 < joelmichael> it lists both 'php' and 'php4-apache2-ssl' as options
21:15 < joelmichael> neither of which are found when i do apt-get install php
21:15 < joelmichael> or apt-get install php4-apache2-ssl
21:16 < kalessin> joelmichael Did you read http://fink.sourceforge.net/faq/usage-fink.php?phpLang=en#bindist
21:16 < joelmichael> humorously typing apt-cache search php gives a list of things which have nothing whatsoever to do with php
21:16 < newmanbe> !bindist
21:16 < Melian> well, bindist is a way for you to share compiled binaries among your friends. See http://fink.sourceforge.net/doc/advanced/bindist.php
21:16 -!- You're now known as RangerRick
21:17 < joelmichael> ok so there is no binary for php lovely
21:18 < akh> There's no binary for anything -ssl
21:18 < joelmichael> i don't even want ssl
21:19 < akh> Just giving you a word of warning for later.
21:19 < joelmichael> wait maybe this one will work http://fink.sourceforge.net/pdb/package.php/libapache2-ssl-mod-php4
21:19 < joelmichael> or not
21:20 < newmanbe> Melian: bindist is also http://www.finkproject.org/faq/usage-fink.php?phpLang=en#bindist
21:20 < Melian> newmanbe: okay
21:20 < newmanbe> !bindist
21:20 < Melian> from memory, bindist is a way for you to share compiled binaries among your friends. See http://fink.sourceforge.net/doc/advanced/bindist.php, or http://www.finkproject.org/faq/usage-fink.php?phpLang=en#bindist
21:20 < newmanbe> cirdan: But the person about the comma thing.
21:23 < akh> mmmm...firefox on 10.3 from a firewire drive.
21:23 < akh> builds dont' get much worse than that.
21:23 < akh> (other than KDE, of course)
21:24 < newmanbe> No, OpenOffice.org.
21:24 < joelmichael> i hate compiling things when it's all going to turn into the same binary
21:25 < cirdan> heh
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21:28 < akh> newmanbe:  Yeah--though that doesn't build for me.
21:29 < cirdan> yeah, wtf is up w/that build using 54G?
21:29 < cirdan> is that accurate?
21:29 < joelmichael> wait
21:29 < joelmichael> i spoke too soon
21:29 < akh> 54 Gigs?  Maybe that's why it doesn't work for me.
21:29 < joelmichael> you can't install php from source either.
21:30 < akh> Ummm...sure you can.  I have php5 on both of my boxes.
21:30 < joelmichael> so i have to go to unstable mode i imagine
21:31 < akh> Yes.
21:31 < joelmichael> ok see that's lame but ok here i go
21:31  * akh needs to remember to provide positive feedback for php5
21:31 < cirdan> joelmichael: not lame, it's how things go to stable
21:31 < joelmichael> as long as it at least works
21:31 < joelmichael> php has been out for a while as has fink i think there could be a stable release by now probably
21:31 < cirdan> !wtf imnsho
21:31 < Melian> IMNSHO: in my not so humble opinion 
21:32 < cirdan> joelmichael: not if there are problems with it/no feedback
21:32 < joelmichael> i used to use dp
21:32 < joelmichael> which had php
21:32 < joelmichael> but it just   didn't work
21:33 < cirdan> we used to have feedback drives, but ppl are real busy and many of us have +50 packages
21:33 < joelmichael> i realize i probably expect too much from things that are built by people in their spare time but
21:34 < joelmichael> i've never had these problems with linux or bsd package management so it's kind of frustrating i guess
21:34 < joelmichael> i mean one would think php would be a pretty in-demand thing
21:34 < cirdan> not really
21:34 < cirdan> we didnt have it in fink until semi-recently
21:34 < joelmichael> amazing
21:34 < cirdan> it is a bitch to package
21:35 < joelmichael> i guess there's some justification considering os x comes with apache1.3 and php4
21:35 < cirdan> right
21:37 < joelmichael> /Library/Webserver/Documents
21:37 < joelmichael> heh
21:37 < joelmichael> os x needs more unix and less apple
21:37 -!- kalessin [~crhalpin@adsl-68-78-232-23.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit ["sleep."]
21:40 < joelmichael> the real moral here is that i need to stop trying to turn my mac into a server, even for home dev
21:43 < cirdan> it makes a fine server
21:44 < cirdan> it's just not debian or gentoo
21:44  * akh uses my server to post bug reports.  ;-)
21:46  * akh isn't exactly sure why I'm building openoffice.org, other than to try to shut up the "make a binary, now!" people.
21:46 < cirdan> heh
21:46 < newmanbe> Make binary, yesterday!
21:46 < akh> Everybody's installing the unofficial one, anyway.
21:47  * newmanbe pounds head!!
21:47 < newmanbe> #*$^&(*&$^&*
21:47  * newmanbe screams.
21:47 < akh> Dare I ask?
21:47 < newmanbe> Someone in #tor at OFTC.
21:48 < akh> Ah
21:48 < akh> Sensenbrenner?
21:48 < akh> ;-)
21:48 < newmanbe> Possibly.
21:48 < akh> That bad, huh?
21:48 < newmanbe> He is wanting to do this to keep people from wanting to run Tor nodes.
21:49 < newmanbe> 100% anti-anonimity
21:49 < newmanbe> He needs a !$25
21:49 < newmanbe> Lots of them.
21:49 < newmanbe> Over and over!
21:49 < akh> heh
21:50 -!- Feanor [~astrange@feanor.developer.opendarwin] has joined #fink
21:50 < RangerRick> so I've got some fun stuff to move if I want to get kde in stable...  freetype219, sqlite3, fltk-x11, libusb, pilot-link9, pth, gnokii2
21:50 < newmanbe> Ooh! Fink does not cost me anything! So I am going to abuse it!
21:50 < newmanbe> &*@#$^
21:51 < RangerRick> I get to herd cats  :)
21:53 < RangerRick> oh, and python24  :P
21:55 < RangerRick> oh well, not tonight  :)
21:55 -!- You're now known as RangerAway
21:56 < gzl> man, fink is really botching this upgrade
22:01 < akh> gzl:  in what sense?
22:03 < gzl> I'm doing an update-all, and it goes for a few packages, and then it complains saying fink has gotten confused by trying to build many packages at once
22:03 < gzl> and asks me to run a build for the package explicitly
22:05 < akh> Yup.  That's because the dependency engine wasn't set up to swap header packages in and out on the fly.
22:06 < akh> This should be much improved in the next release version.
22:06 < akh> (0.25.x)
22:14 -!- kalessin [~crhalpin@adsl-68-78-232-23.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #fink
22:14 < gzl> ah, ok
22:14 < gzl> cool
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22:24 < dmacks> vasiRSI: I spoke too soon. I decided to 'meld' the trees, finding lotsa smallish things and half-backported patches.
22:25 < dmacks> OTOH, gave me a reason to upgrade the meld pkg.
22:28 < dmacks> akh: Are you done compiling oo.o yet??
22:32 -!- kalessin [~crhalpin@adsl-68-78-232-23.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit ["."]
22:33 < cirdan> RangerAway: whee
22:34 < akh> dmacks, yup--bombed
22:34 < dmacks> Does that thing really compile its own mozilla?!
22:35 < dmacks> (I mean, if it were to get sufficiently far in the build process)
22:35 < akh> It looks like it.
22:35 < dmacks> That's dumb.
22:35 < akh> Yeah--like I said, I'm just trying to put the kibosh on the "binary now" people.
22:35 < akh> ;-)
22:35 < dmacks> That's a good GB of builddir and 12 hrs CPU right there.
22:35 < akh> yup
22:36 -!- kalessin [~crhalpin@adsl-68-78-232-23.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #fink
22:36 < akh> dmacks:  so that's there's yet another meld update?
22:36 < akh> (insert "why")
22:37 < dmacks> Finally reached v1.0 :)
22:37 < dmacks> Ayup...I noticed a bug in the previous %v, wanted to see if it was fixed ("no").
22:37 < akh> ick
22:39 < dmacks> Just a lot of "you're using a deprecated API" and other diagnostics to terminal. Nothing functionally broken. Until whatever-lib drops those APIs entirely...
22:43 -!- cirdan [~chris@pcp04356153pcs.glstrt01.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"]
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22:44 < akh> dmacks--yup.  But that's upstream's problem.
22:44 < dmacks> Right.
22:45 < akh> Until people here start saying:  "Why doesn't Fink have version 2?  You guys suck!"
22:46 -!- akh is now known as akh_totally_cras
22:46 -!- akh_totally_cras is now known as akh_zonked
22:46 < akh_zonked> That's the one!
22:46 < akh_zonked> 'night
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23:02 -!- dmacks_away is now known as dmacks
23:03 -!- dk0r [~dk0r@cpe-24-194-171-176.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit []
23:07 -!- vasiRSI is now known as vasi
23:07 < vasi> dmacks, i'm very concerned about how to make FC work with HEAD
23:08  * dmacks on phone next 20ish mins...
23:08 < vasi> k
23:21 -!- dk0r [~dk0r@cpe-24-194-171-176.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #fink
23:21 < newmanbe> !lart nfs server for not responding
23:21  * Melian takes out a cattle prod and gives nfs server a good jolt for not responding
23:21 < newmanbe> And making da' SDF not work!
23:21 -!- dk0r [~dk0r@cpe-24-194-171-176.nycap.res.rr.com] has left #fink []
23:23 < newmanbe> !lart Apple for not having UUCP in Darwin
23:23  * Melian eats Apple's liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti for not having UUCP in Darwin
23:28 -!- newmanbe [~newmanbe@29965ea35b9ba974.session.tor] has quit ["This setback in computing brought to you by SCO Group."]
23:34 -!- htodd [htodd@i8u.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
23:36 -!- Feanor [~astrange@feanor.developer.opendarwin] has quit []
23:37 -!- Feanor [~astrange@mp1-249-136.dialup.emory.edu] has joined #fink
23:43 < dmacks> Okee vasi...what's cookin'?
23:43 < vasi> alright, FC wants to grab a whole pile of data all at once about every package
23:44 < vasi> that used to be efficient in Fink....but in 0.25 it's not anymore
23:44 < dmacks> It keeps its own data structures of [fink info *] or somesuch?
23:44 < vasi> if you look at the script it puts in Application Support
23:45 < vasi> it just basically does a big text dump of (versions,description,maintainer,some-other-stuff)
23:45 < vasi> which FC then reads into a Cocoa NSTableView data source of some sort
23:45 < dmacks> Makes sense for what it needs to do.
23:46 < vasi> yeah...in fact, since the table is sortable, it has to load all the data at once
23:46 < dmacks> Right.
23:46 < vasi> so the issue is more "how the heck can we make that efficient?"
23:47 < vasi> (without making indexing really horrible like pre-0.25)
23:48 < dmacks> Hm. Well if you disable the disk cache, then you're back to not-worse-than a semi-typical 0.24 situation.
23:48 < dmacks> But that's not a *good* situation, obviously.
23:48 < vasi> disk cache?
23:48 < dmacks> var/db/whatever
23:49 < vasi> er yeah, we *could* move back to the old model of non-incremental indexing just for the sake of FC
23:49 < vasi> but i don't really like that
23:49 < vasi> the FC situation isn't *horrible*, it's just not great
23:50 < vasi> (btw, meld still doesn't build because of a continuing bug in gnome-python)
23:50  * dmacks was thinking s/for the sake of/when run by/ in your statement.
23:50 < dmacks> Hrm, first I (can remember) hearing of that.
23:52 < vasi> hmm, so you're saying that we should revert to old indexing only when run by FC? that's at least a small improvement i guess
23:52 < dmacks> If Description were in the main Storable file (or some parallel file; != existing only in each processed .info cache file), then FC would not need to load the whole damn PDB.
23:52 < vasi> (dmacks, i'm forwarding to you the email i sent to gnome-python maintainer a while ago)
23:52 < dmacks> (thx)
23:53 < dmacks> Actually, that could help 'fink list' as well.
23:53 < vasi> yeah, well it wants the long description too
23:53 < vasi> as well as tree, section, maintainer
23:54 < vasi> info-file path too
23:55  * dmacks was thinking "what is needed for the scrollable pane listing" (==must load for all) vs "what is needed only during specific actions on specific pkgs" (==can delay, only load for those pkgs)
23:55 < vasi> yeah, but i think the only thing needed for just specific pkgs is the long desc
23:55 < dmacks> Does its search mode use the longer desc?
23:55 < vasi> everything else: Description, Tree, Section, Maintainer, Infofile
23:56 < vasi> er, i suspect it uses only the short desc
23:56 < vasi> will have to read the source
23:57 < dmacks> What I was suggesting earlier was to just ignore disk-based caching (pretend Storable is missing, for example), so that all .info are read fresh. That's only marginally worse than how 0.24 behaves, assuming even one .info has changed.
23:58 < dmacks> Not a great solution.
23:58 < vasi> i suspect that leaving it as it is will run better than that, tbh
23:58 < dmacks> Yeah prolly true.
23:59 < vasi> timing it now
23:59 < vasi> i'd really LIKE to have some sort of field-indexing/caching mechanism in place
23:59 < vasi> since it would be useful also for scripts like "find all packages with maintainer foo", which is tough now
--- Log closed Thu Jul 14 00:00:12 2005