--- Log opened Thu Jul 14 00:00:12 2005
--- Day changed Thu Jul 14 2005
00:00 < vasi> but keeping it up to date with incremental indexing is a PITA
00:01 < dmacks> Can the Package startup be given an option "no really, load everything right away"? *Might* be faster that way rather than setting up a system for delayed loading then activating it in turn for each pkg.
00:04 < kalessin> vasi So, I'm thinking about how I'd approach the incremental indexing problem if I were scripting something.  And my thought is that I'd use an sqlite3 database, info file path is the primary key.  Before each run, use a `find . -newer DBFILE` to see what to update.  I know it's not that simple, otherwise someone would do it.  Where is the complexity that I'm missing?
00:04 < dmacks> Maybe FC should keep its dump of PDB stored on disk between runs. When it runs, it fires up fink, loads the overview index (which triggers fink to update the fink pdb as needed). Then FC checks its disk-cache timestamp vs that of fink's pdb overview db, and redumps its own cache only if needed.
00:05 < kalessin> make that -cnewer.
00:05 < vasi> dmacks, yeah
00:05 < vasi> kalessin, there are many tough issues....one of the hardest is that info files can overload other info files
00:06 < vasi> eg: if someone has multiple trees, and the same package-version is specified by different info files
00:06 < vasi> and so removing a .info can cause another one to suddenly be active, even though that other one didn't change at all
00:07 < vasi> similarly, adding a .info file can cause another to become inactive
00:07 < vasi> dmacks, that solution makes a significant amount of sense
00:08 < vasi> it might even be possible to do something like asking fink for only changed packages, i'll look into that
00:08 < dmacks> All "we" need to implement is a stable accessor function "get_pdb_timestamp".
00:09 < vasi> yeah, hence "look into that", not necessarily "implement that" :-)
00:09 < dmacks> Right:)
00:09 < dmacks> It'd be up to FC if they want to have indexing suck less, to do the persistent-dump and timestamp-comparison stuff.
00:09 < vasi> kalessin, but using an sqlite3 db like that was my first idea, so you're on the right track ;-)
00:10 < kalessin> I'd think that deciding who overloads what should be done outside of the DB.
00:10 < vasi> dmacks, unfortunately there is no anthropomorphized "FC", the project is almost-dead
00:10 < kalessin> Make the DB stupid, store in it only what .info files contain which packages.
00:10 < kalessin> That'd sidestep the overloading info.
00:10 < kalessin> s/info/issue/
00:10 < vasi> kalessin, now you're at step two, that's what fink does now in HEAD :-)
00:11 < kalessin> But file removal would still be a problem.
00:11 < dmacks> Hence, their indexing can continue to suck, until it hurts someone enough to fix it.
00:11 < vasi> dmacks, again there is no "their"
00:11 < dmacks> "its"
00:11  * kalessin should really the fink code one of these days.
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00:11 < dmacks> That sentence no verb.
00:11  * kalessin adds 'look at'
00:12 < kalessin> d'oh.
00:12 < vasi> kalessin, another problem with sqlite is that we have lots of *working* fink code that depends on using a fink package as a perl "hash"
00:12 < vasi> (known as a dictionary in other languages)
00:12 < pogma> look at kalessin should really the fink code one of these days.
00:12 < pogma> ?
00:12 < kalessin> I should really look at the fink code one of these days.
00:12 < kalessin> vasi I thought the DBI interface to sqlite supported doing a fetchrow_hash ?
00:13 < pogma> there's gotta be something on cpan that does it
00:13 < vasi> kalessin, did i mention that we sometimes store objects in the hash?
00:13 < kalessin> I've used DBI::sqlite in perl, but always with fetchrow_array to get data.
00:13 < kalessin> objects that can be serialized, or objects that contain references?
00:13 < dmacks> kalessin: We have lots of arbitrary fields too, not amenable to converting to a clean db-lookup-based system.
00:13 < kalessin> because if it contains no references, just stuff it into sqlite3 as a blob.
00:13 < vasi> mostly serializable, but there used to be some reference ones
00:14 < vasi> kalessin, there's actually an implementation of sqlite3 as a backend to fink in CVS
00:14 < vasi> under the vasi-persist branch
00:14 < vasi> though it's a bit old now
00:14 < kalessin> Shiny.  :)
00:14 < vasi> i had to store data in a (package-uid, key, value) table
00:15 < dmacks> We'd likely have to create perl objects from each row we read, not just do a bunch of SQL lookups.
00:15 < vasi> and then do all kinds of dynamic lookups and hashing
00:15 < vasi> and it was still unbelievably slow :-(
00:15 < vasi> if you'd like to help hack on the fink indexing setup though, i can always use another brain or two :-)
00:16 < vasi> (mmmm, brains....yummy)
00:16 < kalessin> I can't promise that I've got one of those.
00:16 < kalessin> Mmm... Tasty delicious brain.
00:16 < dmacks> A while ago I started hunting down and removing redundant keys and stuff that could be determined efficiently at runtime vs. storing huge amounts of data; got side-trcaked.
00:16 < dmacks> Also side-tracked.
00:16 < kalessin> dumb question, but your sqlite3 backend used prepared statements?
00:17 < kalessin> It's low-hanging fruit, so I've gotta ask. :-)
00:17 < vasi> kalessin, it's been a while but i think so
00:17 < vasi> i know i tested with them at some point, not sure if it was just a side-test or if i stuffed them into the persist implementation
00:18 < kalessin> They made a -huge- difference for me when I stuffed them into a post-processor for something in my research.
00:19 < vasi> kalessin, the solution i eventually settled on is kinda clever....we have a db per-package....but granularity stops there, no per-key stuff, it's just a serialized blob per package
00:19 < vasi> and the "DB" in fink is really just proxy objects
00:19 < vasi> at a few points where we detect "aha, it's likely the user actually needs one now" we load all the fields at once
00:20 < vasi> (for that package)
00:20 < kalessin> It's been added to my reading list.  :-)
00:20 < vasi> so for almost all of fink, except for half a dozen locations, it can act just as if the DB is always there
00:20 < vasi> the full DB
00:21 < vasi> the big reason that sqlite is so slow is all the legacy code...intercepting EVERY hash access to a package object is ridiculously time consuming
00:22 < vasi> and rewriting PkgVersion just isn't an option, it's 4000 lines of dense perl
00:22 < kalessin> *shudder*
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00:26 < vasi> but the indexing stuff does need more work before a 0.25 release
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00:26 < dmacks> (weird)
00:26 < kalessin> Where would I start reading to find the indexer?
00:26 < vasi> (specifically, needs to work with rsync-updating, and needs to do a best-case load faster)
00:26 < vasi> so if you want to help, be my guest :-)
00:26 < vasi> the most important stuff is around the middle of Package.pm, and near the top of PkgVersion.pm
00:27 < vasi> i highly recommend you familiarize yourself with Devel::DProf and Devel::SmallProf if you haven't already ;-)
00:28 < dmacks> vasi: gnome-python2 uses the same brane-dead build system as pygtk2
00:28 < vasi> dmacks, inverse-yay!
00:28 < vasi> or is it converse? i always get those mixed up
00:29 < vasi> hmm, just before the gnome-python error is: Warning: Too old version of gnome-vfs-2.0 Need 22.0.0, but 2.6.1.1 is installed
00:29 < vasi> that's pretty strange
00:30 < vasi> ah, that's just a silly patch
00:30 < dmacks> OTOH, that means the same make-this-not-_really_-suck.patch would work.
00:30 < dmacks> That's a idfferent problem. There's some desc* note about it I think?
00:30 < dmacks> Okay, this network is sucking...I'll try to be back in a while.
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00:36  * kalessin wishes Doxygen could do perl.
00:39 < vasi> pod kinda sucks, yeah
00:39 < vasi> but honestly, the whole javadoc/doxygen/pod model annoys me
00:39 < vasi> you get lots of docs like "getFoo(): Returns the foo of the bar"
00:40 < kalessin> I like having a hyperlinked and indexed copy of the code.  Helps me to familiarize myself.
00:40 < kalessin> Well, anything can be overdone.  And people certainly like to overdo comments.
00:40 < vasi> you can use pod2html to get a hyperlinked pod doc
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00:42 < vasi> it's just that every programmer feels guilty when they don't write enough comments...and javadoc+friends are just an easy excuse, as opposed to writing real docs....that's the bit that annoys me
00:42 < kalessin> Who feels guilty?  :-)
00:48 < kalessin> My opinion is that, for the most part, if your code needs comments to be intelligible, it should probably be re-written in a more understandable way.
00:49 < kalessin> Unless it's something performance-critical where the confusing code runs faster.
00:54 < vasi> like the fink indexer? :-)
00:55 < kalessin> I dunno yet.  Hence my yearning for doxygen.
00:55 < vasi> i disagree though, i don't think you can generally expect someone to jump in and understand your architecture if your program is reasonably complex
00:58 < kalessin> Depending on how complex is reasonable.  :-)  I mean, yeah, a little explanation at the top of a function giving preconditions and postconditions is only polite.
00:59 < kalessin> And the main loop should probably have a comment sketching the architecture of the program.
00:59 < kalessin> But leaf functions that do things like parse stuff and build objects?
01:01 < vasi> i think we're agreeing here :-)
01:02 < kalessin> At the point when I find myself using comments to tell myself what I just did, I think about re-writing my code to be more intelligible.
01:03 < kalessin> And sometimes I even carry out that impulse. :-)
01:07 < kalessin> Is there some option that I'm not seeing to pod2html that will include the perl source in the output?  All I can get it to include is the docuemntation.
01:17 -!- RangerAw1y [~ranger@cpe-024-168-176-124.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #fink
01:17 -!- Topic for #fink: Have a question? Check the FAQ: http://fink.sf.net/faq || Latest Installers: 0.6.4 (10.2), 0.7.2 (10.3), 0.8.0 (10.4) || Fink 0.24.7: Carina || Where Green porters get RED
01:17 -!- Topic set by cirdan [] [Wed Jul 13 15:13:47 2005]
01:17 [Users #fink]
01:17 [ Airo      ] [ dsias_  ] [ jack-        ] [ lisppaste] [ pHatidic  ] [ runelind] 
01:17 [ akh_zonked] [ emp     ] [ JosephSpiros ] [ mcp      ] [ pnorman   ] [ swix_   ] 
01:17 [ beej---   ] [ eno     ] [ kalessin     ] [ mee_bot  ] [ pogma     ] [ till    ] 
01:17 [ BleedAway ] [ Feanor  ] [ kane-xs      ] [ Melian   ] [ RangerAw1y] [ uncon   ] 
01:17 [ burns     ] [ gecko2  ] [ kapowaz      ] [ muesli   ] [ RangerAway] [ usataway] 
01:17 [ cirdan    ] [ gzl     ] [ knghtbrd     ] [ Murr     ] [ regeya    ] [ vasi    ] 
01:17 [ Clef      ] [ hramrach] [ KraMer       ] [ neo      ] [ RLD_osx   ] [ zorton  ] 
01:17 [ cmeme     ] [ htodd   ] [ Lawjoska1Away] [ nkuttler ] [ robilad   ] 
01:17 -!- Irssi: #fink: Total of 47 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 47 normal]
01:17 -!- Channel #fink created Sun Aug  3 18:57:20 2003
01:17 < vasi> i was just pokin' fun
01:17 < kalessin> Yeah, I know.  I was just whining. :-)
01:17 -!- Irssi: Join to #fink was synced in 136 secs
01:20 < vasi> ok, bedtime for vasi
01:20 < vasi> happy hacking!
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01:20 < kalessin> It was bedtime for me hours ago.  :-)
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03:08 < _Lars__> Hi, I am trying to install (./bootstrap.sh) fink and I get these errors:
03:09 < _Lars__> /bin/cp 10.2/*.info 10.2/*.patch /sw/fink/dists/stable/main/finkinfo/base/
03:09 < _Lars__> cp: 10.2/*.patch: No such file or directory
03:09 < _Lars__> cp: 10.2/*.info: No such file or directory ### execution of bin/cp failed, exit code 1
03:09 < _Lars__> ERROR: Can't copy package description(s).
03:09 < _Lars__> ???
03:16 < msachs> Hi _Lars__ 
03:28 -!- RangerAway [~ranger@cpe-024-168-176-124.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #fink
03:28 -!- Topic for #fink: Have a question? Check the FAQ: http://fink.sf.net/faq || Latest Installers: 0.6.4 (10.2), 0.7.2 (10.3), 0.8.0 (10.4) || Fink 0.24.7: Carina || Where Green porters get RED
03:28 -!- Topic set by cirdan [] [Wed Jul 13 15:13:47 2005]
03:28 [Users #fink]
03:28 [ _Lars__   ] [ cmeme   ] [ htodd        ] [ lisppaste] [ neo       ] [ RLD_osx ] 
03:28 [ Airo      ] [ dsias_  ] [ jack-        ] [ mbroeken ] [ nkuttler  ] [ robilad ] 
03:28 [ akh_zonked] [ emp     ] [ JosephSpiros ] [ mcp      ] [ pHatidic  ] [ runelind] 
03:28 [ beej---   ] [ eno-zzz ] [ kane-xs      ] [ mee_bot  ] [ pnorman   ] [ swix_   ] 
03:28 [ BleedAway ] [ Feanor  ] [ kapowaz_     ] [ Melian   ] [ pogma     ] [ till    ] 
03:28 [ burns     ] [ gecko2  ] [ knghtbrd     ] [ msachs   ] [ RangerAw1y] [ uncon   ] 
03:28 [ cirdan    ] [ gzl     ] [ KraMer       ] [ muesli   ] [ RangerAway] [ usataway] 
03:28 [ Clef      ] [ hramrach] [ LawjoskarAway] [ Murr     ] [ regeya    ] [ zorton  ] 
03:28 -!- Irssi: #fink: Total of 48 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 48 normal]
03:28 -!- Channel #fink created Sun Aug  3 18:57:20 2003
03:28 < _Lars__> msachs: great! now it continues :D
03:28 < msachs> Awesome.
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03:29 < _Lars__> hold on, lets see if I can reach until the end :)
03:29 < _Lars__> thx so much
03:29 < msachs> np
03:29 < msachs> Good luck ;)
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03:33 < _Lars__> it seems it did everything :) wow!
03:34 < msachs> Great!
03:34 < _Lars__> the big problem I have now is that it seems I have a wrong DNS or gateway...
03:34 < msachs> I'll ask about the problem in the morning when more people were around, maybe we fixed it in CVS but haven't released a fixed version yet.
03:34 < msachs> What's going on?
03:35 < _Lars__> I am very new to Darwin so pls excuse me :)
03:35 < msachs> yep
03:35 < _Lars__> I have setup the network and I can already ping on the local network and it works
03:35 < msachs> Okay, what doesn't work?
03:36 < _Lars__> but, i.e. if I do ftp 192.168.0.15 (there is a local FTP server there) then it does nothing. No response, nothing...
03:36 < _Lars__> same happens if I do a ping to an name address, i.e. www.google.com
03:37 < _Lars__> but a ping to a local address works ok
03:37 < msachs> This is just straight open-source Darwin, not OS X?
03:37 < _Lars__> only open-source Darwin
03:38 < msachs> Try route get 0.0.0.0
03:38 < msachs> That will show you your default gateway address
03:38 < _Lars__> default
03:39 < _Lars__> ops, sec... it waited and now answered 192.168.1.1
03:39 < _Lars__> that is wrong
03:39 < msachs> Mm.
03:41 < _Lars__> I rebooted the laptop and it looks as it losted that info...
03:41 < _Lars__> netstat -nr shows a wrong gateway
03:42 < _Lars__> I change it...
03:45 < msachs> #opendarwin is a good place for general Darwin questions, btw
03:46 < _Lars__> yes, sure
03:46 < _Lars__> I may go there and come back when I get this solved :)
03:46 < _Lars__> thx
03:46 < msachs> yw
03:47 < msachs> I mention this because I'm probably going to bed soon, and no one else seems to be here. :)
03:47 < _Lars__> I appreciate it msachs :)
03:50 < _Lars__> msachs, still there ? it looks as everyone is sleeping :))
03:51 < msachs> What's up?
03:51 < _Lars__> I am doing route add 192.168.0.1
03:51 < _Lars__> it says invalid argument
03:51 < msachs> I think the syntax you want is
03:51 < msachs> route add network 0.0.0.0: gateway 192.168.0.1
03:52 < _Lars__> route: bad address: network
03:52 < msachs> oh
03:53 < msachs> It's actually route add 0.0.0.0/0: 192.168.0.1
03:54 < _Lars__> got it: route add default 192.168.0.1 :)
03:54 < msachs> coo
03:54 < _Lars__> I wrote it down yesterday just in case...
03:54 < msachs> :)
03:54 < _Lars__> :)
03:55 < _Lars__> how could I test if DNS and gateway are ok now ?
03:55 < msachs> host google.com
03:55 < msachs> will test DNS
03:55 < msachs> gateway, I always like ping google.com
03:56 < _Lars__> connection timed out ; no servers could be reached
03:57 < _Lars__> how to set the DNS ? hostconfig file ?
03:57 < msachs>  /etc/resolv.conf
03:57 < msachs> I believe...
03:57 < _Lars__> cat /etc/resolv.conf
03:58 < _Lars__> nameserver 0.0.0.0
03:58 < _Lars__> I should change it, right ? :)
03:58 < msachs> Yep :)
03:59 < _Lars__> done with vi ...
03:59 < _Lars__> now should I reboot ?
03:59 < _Lars__> everytime I reboot I lost gateway and ipconfig local info... damn :)
04:00 < msachs> Darwin probably has a way to deal with that.
04:00 < msachs> I'm not sure what it is.
04:00 < _Lars__> thx anyway :)
04:01 < _Lars__> I know I have a long fight in front of me :S
04:01 < msachs> Good luck...
04:01 < msachs> I'm off to bed now.
04:01 < _Lars__> ok, see u. thx!
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05:51 < pRolph> how do I know what I have installed from fink
05:51 < pRolph> ?
05:51 < pRolph> is there a command
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08:30  * akh just sent my "wet blanket" message concerning o.o.o and XCode2.1 here.
08:31 < akh> Time to do the same for koffice.
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08:46 < Berteun> Hello, I've checked the FAQ, but could not find it, is there some description how to build custom packages? Passing some options the fink package does not have by default?
08:48 < pogma> copy the .info file to /sw/fink/dists/local/main/finkinfo/, edit it
08:48 < pogma> it is in the docs
08:48 < pogma> having done that you might want to check that packages which depend on your custom package still work
08:49 < Berteun> That won't be a problem.
08:49 < Berteun> But thanks for the tip.
08:49 < pogma> curious as to what you're editing
08:49 < Berteun> I was looking for something more Debian-like. Like a fink/rules file or something.
08:49 < Berteun> Gnucash.
08:49 < Berteun> I want postgresql support.
08:50 < pogma> I think you just have to uncomment some bits in the .info file
08:50 < Berteun> That was the case with the Debian package, so I hope so indeed. :)
08:52 < akh> Berteun: And tell the maintainer, too, if you get it to work, so that he can make a Variant.
08:52 < Berteun> Well, the reason Debian does not include it, is that it is not exactly encouraged by the Gnucash team.
08:53 < Berteun> They're working on revamping the PostgreSQL support.
08:53 < Berteun> OTOH they've been busy doing that a year or two or something like that.
08:53 < akh> Just because Debian has or doesn't have something doesn't mean anything to Fink, really.
08:53 < akh> They still don't have KDE 3.4.1, for example.
08:54 < akh> And X.org just showed up yesterday on my Debian box.
08:54 < Berteun> I understand, but it was merely as an indication that it might not be a very end-user-ready feature.
08:54 < akh> Right.  Makes sense.
08:55 < akh> But if it works, others might want to try it too, and the maintainer clearly doesn't have enough to do.  ;-)
08:55 < Berteun> Yes.
08:55 < Berteun> Ah, there is some Splitoff in the info file.
08:55 < akh> Yup.
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09:07 < hramrach> Hello
09:07 < Melian> hello, hramrach
09:08 < hramrach> !smart bot
09:08 < Melian> Me ;-)
09:08 < newmanbe> Hi.
09:08 < newmanbe> Melian: You stole my job!
09:09 < newmanbe> The bots are out to get all of your jobs!
09:09 < newmanbe> Beware! Beware!
09:09 < hramrach> Getting buildlock failures
09:09 < newmanbe> !buildlock
09:09 < newmanbe> !lisppaste
09:10 < Melian> You can use lisppaste to paste errors at http://paste.lisp.org/new/fink , instead of flooding the channel.
09:13 < akh> newmanbe: Come on--it's not like greeting people helps put food on the table.
09:14 < newmanbe> I get nourishment from being nice to people.
09:15 < akh> Ah.  Good thing you're in the Midwest then.  ;-)
09:15 < lisppaste> hramrach pasted "buildlock failure" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/9888
09:16 < newmanbe> Making us read non-English?
09:16 < akh> Looks like ncurses-dev got uninstalled in the middle of a big build.
09:16 < hramrach> yes, it happens ocasionally with some packages
09:17 < akh> Yup.  The fix is 1) keep trying, or 2) check out the current CVS fink.
09:17 < hramrach> 0.24.7
09:17 < akh> Right--I mean the development version.
09:17 < akh> 2.4.99
09:17 < hramrach> So it is known and fixed in later version?
09:17 < akh> Yes.
09:18 < hramrach> OK then
09:18 < hramrach> thanks
09:18 < Melian> hramrach: no problem
09:18 < newmanbe> Bad Melian!
09:18 < hramrach> damn bot, interrupts conversation
09:18  * akh thinks newmanbe should write a bot that says "Bad Melian" whenever Melian says something.
09:19 < newmanbe> Hmm, good idea.
09:19 < akh> (oh, no, what have I done?)
09:19 < newmanbe> ircii or irssi-ssl?
09:19 < akh> I'd go for the latter, on principle.
09:19 < newmanbe> The ssl-part?
09:20 < akh> Yup
09:20 < hramrach> ssl hogs cpu :/
09:20 < newmanbe> I use SSL-IRC though.
09:20 < hramrach> I use scp because it is easy but I get no more than 1MB/s
09:20  * newmanbe is trying to get rid of graphical everything.
09:21 < hramrach> On os X :)
09:21 < newmanbe> No, I'm trying to get rid of that too.
09:21 < newmanbe> >console doesn't work either.
09:21 < newmanbe> It dumps me right back at the login-window.
09:21  * zizban uses irssix on mac os x, xchat on soalris
09:21  * newmanbe uses xchat.
09:22 < hramrach> I use irssi-text running on a Linux box with broken keyboard :)
09:22 < akh> That sounds fun.
09:22 < newmanbe> I want to see how a curses(?) client deals with thirteen channels.
09:23 < RangerRick> newmanbe: /win 13
09:23 < RangerRick> :)
09:23 < RangerRick> my irssi status bar says:  [09:23] [RangerRick(+e)] [2:#fink(+nt)] [Act: 3,4,5,6,7,8,10,11,12,13,14]
09:23 < hramrach> It works. But switching to thw channels past ten needs a bit of typing
09:23 < RangerRick> alt 1-0 for the first 10
09:23 < newmanbe> x-chat uses +tn.
09:23 < hramrach> But you could probably make your own kybindings for the higher numbers
09:24 < RangerRick> yeah
09:24 < newmanbe> tnsipmblk
09:24 < hramrach> And I rarely get over 10 as there are power otages from time to time
09:25  * newmanbe uses auto-join.
09:25 < hramrach> If I used autojoin I would also have to research the custom keybindings ;)
09:36 < zizban> ask RangerRick, he uses irssi like yo yo ma uses a cello
09:39 < zizban> wal-mart employees one of 115 americans
09:39 < zizban> that's your factoid of the the morning (tm)
09:39 < newmanbe> Largest employer in the U.S.A.
09:40 < zizban> yepper
09:40 < newmanbe> The second is the United States Postal Service.
09:40 < zizban> oh ya? nifty
09:40 < pogma> what's the stat for lawyers?
09:40 < zizban> I dunno
09:41 < zizban> brb
09:41 -!- zizban [~chris@24-52-0-219.sbtnvt.adelphia.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
09:45 < newmanbe> !lart who ever maintains irssi-ssl for not building with the proxy module
09:45  * Melian turns who ever maintains irssi-ssl into a lifesized tux doll for not building with the proxy module
09:48 < pogma> newmanbe: check who the maintainer is next time
09:48 < newmanbe> Actually, I think that the proxy is for things to connect through irssi.
09:49 < newmanbe> Melian: Unturn irssia-ssl's maintainer (pogma?) from being a tux doll.
09:50 < pogma> no, iirc fingolfin maintains irssi
09:50 < newmanbe> He never comes here anyway anymore.
09:50 < newmanbe> Hmm, he was here a week ago.
09:51 < newmanbe> Or identified with NickServ rather.
09:51 < newmanbe> !seen Fingolfin
09:51 < Melian> Fingolfin <Fingolfin@fingolfin.user> was last seen on IRC in channel #fink, 69d 22h 15m 34s ago, saying: 'now that's a cool widget: http://www.celluon.com/products/features.htm'.
09:51 < pogma> he was on irc, he did not join #fink
09:52 < newmanbe> Even though he's the contact. :-p
09:56 < akh> eh, #fink is almost a self-governing organization at this point.
09:58 < newmanbe> We are higher beings now.
09:59 < akh> We shall refer to ourselves in the first-person plural.
10:00 < newmanbe> We agree.
10:08 < akh> First on the agenda:  assimilate or destroy all packages that put hardcoded /sw in their configuration.
10:09 < newmanbe> First we have to find them.
10:10 < RangerRick> EXTEEEEEERMINATE
10:10 < newmanbe> We are Fink. We come to assimilate all packages hardcoded to /sw. Resistance is futile.
10:11 < akh> Second:  all packagers that say "use fink to install the dependencies" but whose developers don't bother to submit a .info file must be shown the error of their ways.
10:11 < akh> (with a pointy stick)
10:12 -!- zizban [~zizban@24-52-0-219.sbtnvt.adelphia.net] has joined #fink
10:14 < akh> Third:  someone who's not currently in-channel needs to get GNOME2.10 working.  ;-)
10:15 < RangerRick> haha
10:15 < newmanbe> We assign drone RangerAway to the third task.
10:15 < RangerRick> Fourth: RangerRick needs to get off his ass and tell the million packagers that kde depends on to get to stable about their stuff
10:16 < akh> We concur.
10:16 < zizban> yes we do
10:23 < hramrach> I wish there was (5) try a non-fink mirror
10:24 < newmanbe> You can set in the config file to use master mirrors last.
10:24 < akh> But that option keeps getting brought up, too.
10:25 < zizban> (6) use the same server akh uses
10:25 < zizban> that would be a good option as well
10:25 < hramrach> I want it only for packages that are not in fink, not all packages. So config the fink mirrors last is not what I want.
10:26 < RangerRick> er packages not in fink?
10:26 < RangerRick> why would that have anything to do with downloading in fink in the first place?  :)
10:27 < hramrach> Because fink tries its mirrors fisrt, it's configured so
10:28 < akh> You mean packages that haven't been added to the Master mirrors yet, then?
10:28 < hramrach> yes, the packages from package tracker that are there since 2002
10:29 < hramrach> hmm, this one is 06/2003
10:30 < RangerRick> rather than just using them, it would be better to help fix them, or if they're actually OK and just ignored, say they work so someone knows to move them from the tracker  :)
10:30 < hramrach> So only two years
10:30 < hramrach> But you do not do that without installing them first, right?
10:31 < RangerRick> sure...  so when it tries the master mirror and it fails, you pick use original URL
10:35 < hramrach> It does not show such option
10:35 < RangerRick> should be a "use original source url" or something like that
10:35 < RangerRick> I forget the exact wording
10:35 < RangerRick> you get it after the first master mirror fails
10:36 < hramrach> (1) give up (2) retry (3) from your continent (4) another
10:36 < akh> Are you set to combine all mirrors by geographical location?
10:37 < hramrach> How do I tell?
10:37 < akh> Check the MirrorOrder: field in fink.conf
10:38 < hramrach> MirrorOrder: ClosestFirst
10:39 < hramrach> That should be OK in most cases I guess. Unless there is a problematic mirror ( the hu mirror used to be very slow at some time)
10:40 < akh> Unfortunately, I think that option disallows trying the original source URL if Fink hits a Master mirror.
10:42 < hramrach> well, then what I want is to enable that option even if this is set.
10:43 < RangerRick> akh: I thought it put the original source url into the mix
10:44 < RangerRick> if not, it probably should  :)
10:49 < zizban> !lart apt-get for not reading zizban's mind
10:49  * Melian resizes apt-get's terminal to 40x24 for not reading zizban's mind
10:52 < pogma> exit
10:52 < pogma> ww
10:52 < newmanbe> Bye!
10:52 < newmanbe> Melian: Wave goodbye to pogma!
10:52 -!- pogma [~peter@pogma.developer.opendarwin] has left #fink []
10:54 < newmanbe> !wave to pogma
10:57 < akh> RangerRick: the problem is that there's no option to bail once you're in the Master mirrors loop.
10:57 -!- dk0r [~dk0r@cpe-24-194-171-176.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #fink
10:57 < akh> Other than giving up, of course.
10:57 < RangerRick> yeah, that's a definite problem
11:00 < newmanbe> Yay for binary packages!
11:01 < newmanbe> Of probably old versions.
11:01 < newmanbe> From 2003.
11:07 -!- TheSin [~TheSin@iphost-64-56-130-194.edm.wiband.net] has joined #fink
11:16 -!- dk0r [~dk0r@cpe-24-194-171-176.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit []
11:30 < kapowaz_> quick question
11:30 -!- kapowaz_ is now known as kapowaz
11:31 < newmanbe> Hello.
11:31 < kapowaz> if I use Fink to manage/install Apache, how will that interfere with the default Apache running on OS X?
11:31 < newmanbe> You cannot have them both running on the same ports and interfaces.
11:33 < RangerRick> but otherwise they don't touch each other
11:34 < newmanbe> !lart graphic configuration anything for making newmanbe lazy
11:34  * Melian puts graphic configuration anything into a headlock and administers a mighty noogie, rubbing half of graphic configuration anything's hair of for making newmanbe lazy
11:39 < akh> Horrible grammar.
11:39 < zizban> heh
11:39 -!- pogma [~peter@pogma.developer.opendarwin] has joined #fink
11:39 < akh> !wb pogma
11:39 < Melian> Welcome back pogma, o lonely traveller amongst the TCP/IP packets of chaos.
11:39  * akh steals newmanbe's job. ;-)
11:40 < pogma> only left 'cause newmanbe was being annoying
11:40 < zizban> he's still here :)
11:40 < pogma> I know :)
11:40 < newmanbe> It was akh's idea to refer to we in the first-person plural.
11:41 < akh> we do claim that idea, but didn't advocate running it into the ground.
11:42 < kapowaz> does anyone here use Fink to manage Apache?
11:42 < kapowaz> I'm wondering if that's preferable to using the default install?
11:42 < akh> I do.
11:43 -!- mbroeken [~broeken@hst32165.phys.uu.nl] has quit []
11:44 < pogma> akh: Do you actually use gnucash?
11:45  * akh keeps planning to...
11:45 < pogma> ah
11:45 < pogma> like me then :)
11:45 < akh> I've got it installed, though, if something needs testing.
11:45 < pogma> have you set up some accounts?
11:46 < pogma> can you change fields in the register?
11:46 < akh> Haven't even gotten that far yet.
11:47 -!- eno-zzz is now known as eno
11:48 < pogma> no worries
11:50 -!- regeya [~shane@adsl-sp3-cdale176.micgi.com] has quit [Client Quit]
11:51  * zizban sees hockey has ended it's lockout but wonders if anyone will care
11:52 < akh> Towns with minor league hockey teams will--that'll cut into business.
11:53 < zizban> true
11:55 < akh> pogma:  I imported a QIF from my bank and things seem OK
11:55 < pogma> hmm, and you can add/edit a transaction? Odd
11:57 < akh> I did, yes.
11:58 < akh> Maybe it's related to my inability to build OpenOffice.org.  ;-)
11:58 -!- newmanbe [~newmanbe@0a00ed901e75252e.session.tor] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
11:59 < akh> (or that I'm using xorg)
11:59 < zizban> cool...planet discovered in triple star system
11:59 < zizban> neat move: http://pr.caltech.edu/media/trinary_sunset-low.mov
11:59 -!- newmanbe [~newmanbe@609622c150ffabb4.session.tor] has joined #fink
12:00 -!- dalibor [~mpiadmin@swspm1500.d1.mpi-sws.mpg.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
12:00 < akh> So much for the oldskool idea that there wouldn't be any planet-forming material in multiple star systems.
12:01 < akh> Though it might still apply for close, equal-sized stars, I guess...
12:02 < zizban> sure
12:02 < kapowaz> akh: so, any sage advice? gotchas I should watch out for?
12:03 < akh> kapowaz: nothing stands out--it seemed robust enough here.
12:04 -!- regeya [~shane@adsl-sp3-cdale176.micgi.com] has joined #fink
12:04 < kapowaz> akh: good stuff :)
12:06 < akh> Admittedly I don't use it for anything _too_ heavy...
12:25 -!- regeya [~shane@adsl-sp3-cdale176.micgi.com] has quit [Client Quit]
12:26 -!- baba [~baba@YahooBB220041000208.bbtec.net] has joined #fink
12:43 < zizban> walmart accounts for 2% of the us GDP
12:43 < zizban> that's your afternoon factoid
12:44 -!- beej--- [beej@64.237.190.201] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
12:45 < runelind> that's crazy
12:45 < runelind> cause it is morning here
12:45 < newmanbe> Here too.
12:45 < runelind> I can see into the future!
12:45 -!- Berteun [berteun@cal005302.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has quit ["Hardware"]
12:46 < newmanbe> I have informants in the future.
12:46 < zizban> afternoon here
12:46 < zizban> I'm in the future!
12:46 < runelind> you fix your de lorean?
12:46 < newmanbe> You're one of my informants.
12:48 < zizban> you know it
12:51 < newmanbe> Making md5 checksums of full-sized CD-ROM disc ISO's takes a long time.
12:51 < zizban> I bet
12:54 < zizban> bbl
12:54 -!- zizban [~zizban@24-52-0-219.sbtnvt.adelphia.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
12:54 -!- dmacks [~dmacks@netspace.org] has joined #fink
12:55 < newmanbe> Hello dmacks.
12:55 < newmanbe> Melian: You will only greet people when I am not here.
12:56 < dmacks> RangerRick: 'cvs diff -rbranch_0_24 -rHEAD VirtPackage.pm' finds quite a few changes...cups-dev, the SDKs, new version of gimp-print7-shlibs, some browl changes (those last may be TheSin's)
12:57 < TheSin> yup I added growl virt
12:57 < TheSin> needed for growl-pm
12:57 -!- baba [~baba@YahooBB220041000208.bbtec.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"]
12:58 < dmacks> (...that would be after updating to HEAD. !lart cvs for having no TRUNKHEAD tag)
13:01 < RangerRick> dmacks: weird, it didn't for me
13:02 < dmacks> Did you 'cvs update -rbranch_0_24' then 'cvs diff -rHEAD' perhaps?
13:02 < RangerRick> hm, it does from head
13:02 < RangerRick> I ran that exact command earlier and it didn't  :)
13:02 < RangerRick> maybe something was fuxored
13:02 < dmacks> odd
13:03 < RangerRick> I don't see any reason not to merge all those changes back to 0.24, I'll do so right now
13:06 < dmacks> Cool thanks.
13:10 -!- BinarySpike [~BinarySpi@206.113.16.57] has joined #fink
13:12 -!- vasi [~vasi@modemcable133.147-70-69.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #fink
13:14 < vasi> hi TheSin
13:16 < BinarySpike> does fink store installed packages in sw?
13:17 < BinarySpike> I mean... if I want to remove them and I remove sw and re-install fink will I be able to
13:17 < BinarySpike> ?
13:17 < newmanbe> Yes/
13:17 < BinarySpike> Shoot
13:17 < newmanbe> .
13:17 < newmanbe> Wait, reinstall fink?
13:17 < newmanbe> As in rm -rf /sw/?
13:17 -!- BinarySpike [~BinarySpi@206.113.16.57] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
13:18 -!- BinarySpike [~BinarySpi@206.113.16.57] has joined #fink
13:18 < BinarySpike> sorry, anyway I deleted SW after installing curl-ssl and know I have libssl and it's messing me up
13:19 < newmanbe> Packages are stored, by default, in /sw/.
13:19 < BinarySpike> So I reinstalled fink to remove it but it says I don't have curl-ssl
13:19 < dmacks> If you deleted /sw, then you don't have *fink's* libssl.
13:19 < BinarySpike> I still have it
13:20 < newmanbe> If you deleted /sw/, then you probably don't have Fink's anything.
13:20 < BinarySpike> because libcurl.a is in my /usr/lib
13:20 < dmacks> That's Apple's libssl
13:20 < BinarySpike> I don't think so
13:20 < BinarySpike> Because when I used fink it apeared
13:20 < newmanbe> It should not be from Fink.
13:20 < BinarySpike> Well I'm 100% sure that libcurl.a is
13:20 < newmanbe> Nothing in /usr/, except X11, should be from Fink.
13:21 < BinarySpike> I have Mac os 10.2
13:21 < newmanbe> Why are you so sure it is from Fink?
13:21 < BinarySpike> because when I messed X up I had to re-install EVERYTHING and libcurl.a wasn't there
13:22 < TheSin> hey vasi
13:22 < BinarySpike> then when I used fink to get curl-ssl it apeared in my /usr/lib
13:22 < dmacks> I On my 10.3 box, libcurl.a is part of Apple's BSDSDK.pkg
13:22 < BinarySpike> (I'm not sure though if libssl did because I didn't even know libssl was related to libcurl)
13:22 < vasi> TheSin, i'd like to try to fix the problem with builddepends-switching
13:22 < BinarySpike> That's 10.3
13:22 < vasi> but i'm not entirely sure what the problem is
13:23 < vasi> so could you tell me about a case where it happens?
13:23 < dmacks> We're all giving you data dude, you're free to ignore it.
13:23 < BinarySpike> libcurl doesn't come with 10.2
13:23 < BinarySpike> well, would it be dangerous to delete libcurl.a?
13:23 < BinarySpike> (and re-install it with fink)
13:23 < BinarySpike> cause I need curl not curl-ssl
13:23 < TheSin> vasi i've never had it happen to me
13:24 < TheSin> likely why it hasn't been high on my list
13:24 < vasi> well drm keeps pushing back 0.24.x => stable
13:24 < vasi> because that's not fixed
13:24 < vasi> so it's kinda high on my list :-)
13:25 < dmacks> Rename it to libcurl_OLD_THING.a in case you find out it came from something important.
13:25 < vasi> can you tell me what you know?
13:25 < BinarySpike> ok
13:26 < BinarySpike> and curl should be put in /sw/lib?
13:26 < dmacks> I can't remember ever seeing fink's 10.2 curl pkgs install there, but you have it so either you can reproduce it, or else you'll find it was important, or else not from fink, or else you'll never care about it:)
13:26 < BinarySpike> Hmm...... Yikes
13:27 < BinarySpike> Installed libcurl.2.dylib
13:27 < BinarySpike> I could swear libcurl.a didn't exist until I used fink
13:28 < BinarySpike> Yay!
13:29 < BinarySpike> sudo apt-get remove curl-shlibs
13:29 < BinarySpike> removed libcurl.2.dylib
13:29 < dmacks> good
13:29 < BinarySpike> that means it isn't libcurl.a it's libcurl.2.dylib that I should be using
13:29 < BinarySpike> now I have to learn to re-configure makefiles
13:29 < dmacks> Yeah...shared libs==Good
13:30 < BinarySpike> has anybody heard of regex?
13:31 < BinarySpike> It was mess'n libssl up...
13:33 < TheSin> vasi, as far as I know there are two problems, one it needs a list of swaps so it put it back after the swap before the next build/check
13:33 < TheSin> vasi, the other part is it need to know when a dep is satisfied
13:33 < TheSin> right now if you have db3 installed
13:33 < TheSin> and the pkg has db3 | db3-ssl
13:34 < TheSin> it's install db3-ssl to build
13:34 < TheSin> because it's the last one
13:34 < BinarySpike> can I get a list of installed packages?
13:34 < BinarySpike> Like apt-get getlist?
13:34 < TheSin> BinarySpike, fink list -i
13:34 < BinarySpike> thx
13:34 < TheSin> np
13:34 < vasi> TheSin, the first one seems easier to fix (i think...the Replaces stuff makes it harder)
13:34 < TheSin> understand what I'm saying vasi ?
13:35 < vasi> the second one, i think i get, but i'd really like to be able to actually reproduce it
13:35 < TheSin> well I think I just use the object at the wrong time
13:35 < TheSin> I think just befaor it fails
13:35 < BinarySpike> and all the packages stay in sw?
13:35 < TheSin> is where the switch should be on the pkg that woul dmake it fail
13:35 < TheSin> then it should re run the check
13:35 < BinarySpike> they never go into /usr/?
13:36 < vasi> TheSin, i'm not sure i understand you there
13:37 < BinarySpike> anyway, thanks guys!
13:37 < BinarySpike> See you guys l8tr!
13:37 -!- BinarySpike [~BinarySpi@206.113.16.57] has left #fink []
13:38 < TheSin> well I run the switch during the dep check phase
13:39 < TheSin> it shoudl check all deps and fail lik eit normally would
13:39 < vasi> yeah, just before the build
13:39 < TheSin> but before it fails and dies
13:39 < vasi> you switch instead
13:39 < TheSin> it should do a new call to install to satify the dep
13:39 < TheSin> then re run the other install
13:39 < TheSin> so that it checks again incase there are more then one pkg to switch
13:40 < TheSin> then db3 would be okey for db3 | db3-ssl cause it would never get the switch code
13:40 < kapowaz> is there no apache 1.x package for fink?
13:40 < TheSin> and since the error always has a list of pkgs that made it fail it'd be easy to call install internally for them
13:40 < vasi> TheSin, doesn't it resolve the db3 | db3-ssl thing earlier?
13:41 < TheSin> just hard to get that list at the first list, where it says what will be installed, upgraded etc etc
13:41 < vasi> ie: if the user chose to use db3, why is db3-ssl in @extendeddeps?
13:41 < TheSin> vasi, yes and that is the problem, I'm runnign the switch code in that loop right now
13:41 < TheSin> so it wants to resolve them both
13:41 -!- chris01 [~chris01@212.126.165.246] has joined #fink
13:41 < TheSin> I had to do it there so it would show in the first info screen
13:42 < TheSin> but if we are switching back it shouldn't matter I think
13:42 < vasi> info screen?
13:42 < TheSin> so at the end things will be the same
13:42 < TheSin> like when you type fink update-all
13:42 < TheSin> and it tells you what will get installed, updated removed
13:42 < TheSin> that info screen
13:43 < kapowaz> ok this is crazy, I can't see a php package either
13:43 < kapowaz> there must be one, surely?
13:43 < newmanbe> !pdb
13:43 < Melian> The package database can be found at http://www.finkproject.org/pdb/ .
13:44 < dmacks> fink.sf.net/pdb/search.php?summary=php finds quite a few, no?
13:44 < kapowaz> it does
13:44 < chris01> dmacks, vasi, TheSin, msachs: I am using the latest cvs version of fink since a couple of days. And I just have to say this: It's great! Thanks!
13:44 < kapowaz> but sudo apt-cache search php finds none
13:44 < TheSin> !unstable
13:44 < Melian> somebody said unstable was http://www.finkproject.org/faq/usage-fink.php#unstable , or at http://www.finkproject.org/faq/usage-fink.php#bindist
13:44 < vasi> chris01, thanks :-)
13:44 < kapowaz> which is how the documentation tells you to find them
13:44 < TheSin> that is for you kapowaz 
13:45 < vasi> TheSin...at the point where you do the swapping, fink has already decided on the deps for each package, and put them in @{$item}[5..$#{$item}]
13:45 < TheSin> kapowaz, apt-cache is only good for stable
13:45 < TheSin> since ther eis no unstable rep
13:45 < vasi> right?
13:45 < TheSin> well I was hoping
13:46 < TheSin> but I don't know the dep object since dmacks made it an object now
13:46 < vasi> go slow with me, i'm trying to understand here :-)
13:46 < TheSin> and it turns out that it doesn;t
13:46 < TheSin> well when I wrote stuff in the engine before when Max was lead
13:46 < TheSin> we didn't use objs at all execpt the pkg obj
13:46 < dmacks> "the dep object"?
13:47 < TheSin> now pretty much everything is objs, which is much better
13:47 < kapowaz> TheSin: so what's the alternative method for installing packages other than apt ?
13:47 < vasi> i don't see a dep object either
13:47 < TheSin> but I don't know the layout much and I was waiting for dmacks to have time to go over it with me before
13:47 < dmacks> kapowaz: The 'fink' command knows both source and binary packages. apt is binary-only
13:47 < vasi> oh, you mean we stuff objects rather than names into @{$item}[5..$#{$item}] ?
13:47 < TheSin> but we seem to both be busy ppl and it never happened :D
13:47 < TheSin> kapowaz, fink install
13:48 < TheSin> but read !unstable first
13:48 < RangerRick> !unstable
13:48 < Melian> from memory, unstable is http://www.finkproject.org/faq/usage-fink.php#unstable , or at http://www.finkproject.org/faq/usage-fink.php#bindist
13:48  * kapowaz has just read it
13:48 < kapowaz> so fink list is the equivalent of apt-cache search, and fink install is the equivalent of apt-get install ?
13:48 < dmacks> Bingo.
13:48 < TheSin> k, cause you won't find php4 or php5 (I maintain both) without unstable turned on
13:48 < vasi> dammit, you know if you just told me "if you do A and B then X happens, but it should be Y"
13:48 < vasi> then i could just see what's wrong :-)
13:48 < kapowaz> okey dokey :)
13:49 < TheSin> vasi, hehe
13:49 < TheSin> you know me, takes half aday to understand my explainations
13:49 < TheSin> but I do try honest
13:49 < vasi> <g>
13:49 < dmacks> Y'oughta become a professor.
13:49 < TheSin> hehe
13:49 < vasi> i know...someday somebody will teach you about punctuation ;-)
13:49 < kapowaz> I don't like the way fink prompts timeout to the default :|
13:49 < kapowaz> I look away and look back just in time to see it choose an option for me
13:49 < TheSin> man synaptic is nice...the gnome apt frontend from ubuntu
13:50 < vasi> yeah
13:50 < vasi> no reason we couldn't build synaptic for fink :-)
13:50 < TheSin> be nice to convert that to cocoa
13:50 < vasi> well some things about it are ugly
13:50 < akh> vasi:  I thought it was in somebody's experimental at one point.
13:50 < TheSin> still much nicer then dselect
13:50 < akh> And we've got aptitude now.
13:51 < vasi> ubuntu's making a new package-finder app
13:51 < vasi> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/FindingPackages
13:51 < TheSin> I really like ubuntu for a desktop
13:51 < vasi> i applied to do that as a google "summer of code", but someone beat me out
13:51 < TheSin> lots of progress on it, gonna install cross over office on it and see how things run
13:51 < dmacks> kapowaz: People kept complaining that they'd set up a fink run, go away for a while, and come back to find it hung at a question. fink-0.25 will be highly customizable for prompt-timeouts
13:52 < kapowaz> dmacks: I can see the logic behind it, I'd just argue it should be an option, but not the default
13:52 < vasi> TheSin, do you know anybody who *can* reproduce the problems with dep-switching?
13:52 < kapowaz> after all, if you didn't know it was going to happen, it could potentially mean you've done something really wrong
13:52 < kapowaz> whereas if it's hung on a question the worst that's happened is you lose some time
13:52 < TheSin> vasi, let me check my emails, send me an address to forward them to
13:52 < vasi> djvasi@gmail.com
13:53 < dmacks> The only quibble is who's concept of "a while" we should wait. It's supposed to be 10-60sec on modern fink versions (longer for more critical stuff).
13:53 < vasi> dmacks, we should categorize the remaining auto-timeouts
13:53 < kapowaz> how do I specify which type of package fink uses by default, source or binary?
13:53 < dmacks> Yup. After 0.234.8 gets out.
13:54 < dmacks> Okay, we'll just wait for 0.24.8
13:54 < vasi> lol dmacks, that'll be a while ;-)
13:54 < akh> kapowaz: If the UseBinaryDist option is activated in your fink.conf, then binaries will be used, IF they're the highest version.
13:54 < vasi> kapowaz, usually it uses source only...if you want to let it use binary, put UseBinaryDist: true in your fink.conf
13:54 < kapowaz> ok
13:55 < dmacks> (...assuming 'man fink.conf' lists that option; if not, update your fink)
13:55 < kapowaz> I'd rather I didn't have to wait for it to compile dozens of packages... I want to work tonight :)
13:55 < TheSin> vasi, that is the only email I have about it
13:55 < kapowaz> I've only just installed fink 0.8
13:55 < dmacks> Okay, that's new enough.
13:55 < akh> That's Fink-0.8, btw.
13:55 < akh> (silly convention)
13:55  * kapowaz stares
13:55 < dmacks> _F_ink vs _f_ink
13:56 < akh> Fink is the distribution, fink is the package manager
13:56 < kapowaz> surely "fink-0.8-2-final" ?
13:56  * kapowaz reaches for his /debianize script
13:56 < dmacks> 'fink' is just another package, that happens to contain the /sw/bin/fink script that one often uses to manage packages.
13:57 < akh> Wonder if we could change 'fink' to 'fink-get' or something to get rid of this confusion.
13:57 < dmacks> "Fink" is the name of the project, and the name of the OS X installer thing.
13:57 < kapowaz> how about fget?
13:58 < kapowaz> for even more confusion :)
13:58 < kapowaz> fgets
13:58 < kapowaz> fgetc
13:58  * akh favors 'phink'
13:58 < vasi> TheSin, in that email problem #1 is a buildconflict issue
13:58 < dmacks> fgets is like fget, but for _s_ource packages, right?
13:58 < vasi> i don't know if we deal with that yet
13:59  * akh tries openoffice.org again after following a suggestion from dmacks.
13:59 < dmacks> fltk is a giant pain in my ass.
14:00 < TheSin> vasi, that is all I have that is semi related
14:00 < TheSin> but ya I think it's related to #1
14:00 < TheSin> I don't have anythign on #2
14:00 < TheSin> it could even be fixed already
14:00 < TheSin> dmacks is the man on fixing things quietly :D
14:01 < vasi> but #2 isn't even switching-related
14:01 < dmacks> heh
14:01 < vasi> it's just a random dep-engine bug
14:01 < vasi> i mean, i'd still like it fixed and all, but i'm more interested in 0.24-blockers
14:01 < vasi> *sigh*
14:02 < vasi> someday i'll have to try to refactor the dep engine
14:02 < vasi> looks ridiculously hard though
14:02 < TheSin> ya lots of loops
14:02 < TheSin> and gotos
14:02 < vasi> it looks like libtool!
14:02 < dmacks> Yeah. So we can just tell pogma to fix it, right?
14:02 < RangerRick> hah
14:02 < TheSin> the obj change really threw me off though and dmacks was busy when I wrote it so it was trial and error for me un fortunetly
14:02 < vasi> the whole @item array is very silly
14:03 < TheSin> that was dmacks IIRC
14:03 < cirdan> heh
14:03 < TheSin> but honestly it was better then what we had
14:03 < cirdan> morning all
14:03 < TheSin> much more organized and less mem I'm sure
14:03 < TheSin> hey cirdan 
14:03  * cirdan is sick
14:03 < TheSin> don't talk to me then
14:03 < TheSin> :P
14:03 < cirdan> *cough*
14:03 < TheSin> hehe
14:03 < cirdan> sorry, TheSin 
14:03 < vasi> the values for $item[$FLAG] are totally obtuse
14:04 < dmacks> I think I did a lot of cleanup of the @item array-of-named-constant-things thing, but the original implementation was someone else. If that's what we're talking about.
14:04 < TheSin> we need some defs for those values I think
14:04 < TheSin> as globals
14:04 < TheSin> dmacks, yup
14:04 < TheSin> it's still better then the original
14:04 < TheSin> but it's a little confusing to dive into I found
14:04 < vasi> :-)
14:05 < dmacks> vasi: Yeah...need enums for $FLAG, or else orthogonal bits instead of ints.
14:05  * vasi nominates that for understatement of the week
14:05 < TheSin> the old way was even more so, but at least I knew it since I spent sooo much time in there at one point :D
14:05 < cirdan> heh
14:05 < vasi> i'll put refactoring that on my list for 0.26
14:06 < vasi> i figure if i can refactor Package, i can try real_install :-)
14:06 < TheSin> *shivers*
14:06 < vasi> PkgVersion is beyond me, though ;-)
14:06 < vasi> and Shlibs....well, i blame TheSin :-P
14:06 < dmacks> In more imminent events, could you look at postinstall.pl HEAD vs branch_0_24 and see what needs backporting?
14:07 < TheSin> ya somethings are so far over due to be refactored it's really scary to try now
14:07 < vasi> dmacks, sure....in the meantime, wanna get gnome-python working so i can use that funky meld thing?
14:07 < chris01> oh, btw, i found one small issue/bug with fink cvs:
14:07 < TheSin> vasi, RangerRick helped with shlibs.pm, so I'll share that blame :P
14:07 < dmacks> I'll hit it tonite. I see a note in -bugs tracker that Jeremy Higgs is very busy with other stuff.
14:07 < vasi> chris, yep?
14:07 < vasi> dmacks, ok
14:08 < chris01> if you have autoindex off, it is impossible to ./inject.pl, since fink wont find the actual fink package to inject.
14:08 < chris01> (does this make sense')
14:08 < chris01> ?
14:08 < TheSin> back to $JOB
14:08 < TheSin> bbiab guys
14:09 < dmacks> Me too:(
14:09 -!- dmacks [~dmacks@dmacks.active.supporter.pdpc] has quit ["leaving"]
14:09  * cirdan watches everyone scurry away
14:10 < chris01> vasi: do you know what i mean?
14:10 -!- Feanor_ [~astrange@64.207.61.218] has joined #fink
14:11 < akh> chris01: Without autoindexing, if you try to inject.pl, fink doesn't have the proper package info?
14:11 < vasi> chris, it does
14:11 < chris01> ok :)
14:11 < vasi> i don't think there's a good fix for that really
14:12 < vasi> because NoAutoIndex means basically "i never want new packages"
14:12 < akh> Hmmm....
14:12 < vasi> so you can't really say "i never  want new packages, but give me a new fink package"
14:12 < akh> ShootMyselfInTheFoot: true ;-)
14:12 < vasi> (tbh, NoAutoIndex was basically a dumb hack that doesn't really make sense anymore)
14:12 < akh> ah
14:13 < vasi> we should maybe deprecate it? i'll try to find out if anybody actually uses it still, and why
14:13 < akh> Sounds good to me.
14:13 < vasi> but i'll do that later :-)
14:13 < akh> (and you know _somebody_ will comment)
14:14 < vasi> nobody commented about 'fink rescan;
14:14 < akh> There's a 'fink rescan'?
14:14 < vasi> only for a little while more, we're removing it in 0.25
14:14 < vasi> it's been around forever (since the chrisp days)
14:14 < vasi> but nobody seems to use it, or even know what it's supposed to do
14:15 < vasi> :-)
14:15 < akh> And it's not in the manpage anyway.
14:15 < vasi> hmm, drm should be back soon eh?
14:16 < vasi> he's the guy i've gotta bug about the 0.24-blockers
14:16 < vasi> cuz he's the one who insists they really are blockers :-)
14:16 < akh> I'd have to assume he'll be back soon--unless he started a sabbatical.
14:16 < vasi> i think he's in amsterdam on holiday
14:17 < vasi> where "holiday" may be work-related, i dunno
14:17 < newmanbe> Knoppix's mirror system is even more borken then SourceForge.net.
14:17 < akh> Is that possible?
14:17 < newmanbe> Yes.
14:17 < cirdan> hmm, knoppix 4 avail for d/l?
14:18 < newmanbe> The latest I've seen is 3.9.
14:18 < akh> OMG--my openoffice.org build is continuing.
14:18 < newmanbe> Some servers only have <=3.8.
14:18 < akh> (past where it crashed last time)
14:18 < cirdan> akh: hehe
14:18 < newmanbe> I'm trying to find the md5/sha-1 because the cd I have is borkenish.
14:18 < akh> Hope I have enough disk space.
14:18 < cirdan> akh: rm -rf /
14:19 < akh> Even then
14:19  * akh needs to get a bigger drive at some point.
14:20 < akh> I'm thinking I can donate my 30 gig one to a student machine that only has a 15 gig and a 1 gig.
14:20 < akh> Then my 80 Gig main drive can become my "small" backup.
14:20 < cirdan> heh
14:21 -!- Feanor_ is now known as Feanor
14:21 -!- das_ [~das@sparky.doit.wisc.edu] has joined #fink
14:21 < newmanbe> Hmm, the md5's match.
14:22 < akh> Bad computer?
14:22 < newmanbe> Computers.
14:22 -!- vasi [~vasi@modemcable133.147-70-69.mc.videotron.ca] has quit []
14:23  * newmanbe goes to check the sha-1.
14:23 < kapowaz> is there no apache 1 package for fink?
14:23 < newmanbe> !pdb
14:23 < Melian> The package database can be found at http://www.finkproject.org/pdb/ .
14:23 < cirdan> dont think so
14:24 < kapowaz> so I have to go to apache2 ? :|
14:24 < cirdan> no
14:24 < cirdan> os x inclused apache1
14:24 < chris01> vasi, akh: i agree that noautoindex should be deprecated. It doesn't make sense anymore with the latest fink and incremental indexing.
14:25 < kapowaz> well it does
14:25 < kapowaz> but still...
14:25 < kapowaz> I'd prefer to maintain everything through fink
14:26 < newmanbe> You could make the package.
14:26 < kapowaz> if a problem in apache 1.x emerges, you have to wait for Apple to fix it in an OS update
14:26 < kapowaz> heh, if I knew how
14:26 < akh> Why not apache2?
14:26 < kapowaz> I've never used it
14:26 < kapowaz> basically I'm not familiar with any of the changes, if there are any
14:27 < chris01> TheSin: still here? I have positive feedback for you: apr, apache2 and php4 work perfectly fine here on a couple of machines. Could they be moved to stable?
14:27 < kapowaz> I know the config system is different
14:27 < akh> For my own limited server use, there wasn't any difference in how things are set up.
14:27 < kapowaz> hmm
14:27 < kapowaz> ok, well I'll try it I suppose
14:27  * akh just edited httpd.conf
14:27 < akh> Nothing fancier.
14:30 < TheSin> chris01, they could be but I won't do it
14:30 < TheSin> could php5 too, I have possitive for it too
14:30 < TheSin> again I won't do it
14:30 < TheSin> :P
14:33 < chris01> :) aha, why?
14:36 -!- TheSin [~TheSin@iphost-64-56-130-194.edm.wiband.net] has quit ["Client exiting"]
14:36 < akh> No answer for chris01.  ;-)
14:37 < chris01> :-S
14:38 < akh> The stable tree is overrated, anyway.
14:52  * akh wonders if RangerRick ever got a message from the same person vasi told me about:  the claim was that there was a conspiracy to keep KDE from the bindist.
14:52 < newmanbe> Organize the inquiring commission!
14:54 < akh> Nah--he's clearly innocent of "conspiracy to obstruct KDE bindist", since he's nagging the maintainers of the dependencies to get them into stable.
14:54 < newmanbe> So he says.
14:55  * newmanbe wasn't actually thinking of him when he mentioned the inquiry commission.
14:55 < akh> ah
14:56  * akh still wonders if the change in US law that allowed Debian to host crypto stuff onshore would allow us to get rid of the crypto tree.
14:56 < akh> (yeah, I'm in offtopic stream-of-consciousness mode)
14:56 < newmanbe> Ignore the law, it is unconstitutional.
14:56 < newmanbe> The U.S. government doesn't have the authority to regulate cryptology, so it's all good.
14:57 < akh> That's my point--roll the crypto packages into the main tree.
14:58 < akh> We're in agreement.  ;-)
14:58 < newmanbe> Sigh, the sha-1 matches too.
14:59 < akh> hmmm...why _does_ openoffice.org build its own mozilla?
14:59 < newmanbe> Now I have to figure out if the CD-ROM disc burned right.
14:59 < newmanbe> Actually, it is a CD-WO disc.
14:59 < akh> newmanbe:  Or is it the drive?
14:59 < newmanbe> Yes, it is the drive.
14:59 < newmanbe> But two drives?
14:59 < akh> Ah--same response for 2 drives?
14:59 < akh> Seems unlikely.
15:00 < newmanbe> On two different computers?
15:00 < akh> Making a strong case for bad media.
15:00 < newmanbe> In one computer, the first drive doesn't work when I use Debian.
15:00 < newmanbe> But it does work with Knoppix.
15:00 < akh> Odd.
15:00 -!- cianhughes [~cian@cian.ws] has joined #fink
15:00 < newmanbe> !lart Apple for making newmanbe say CD-ROM disc.
15:00  * Melian readies the nuke launcher and fires some rounds at Apple for making newmanbe say CD-ROM disc.
15:01 < cianhughes> anyone know is 8C46 the latest build of mac os x, or did the public 10.4.2 take things higher
15:02 < newmanbe> I imagine it would change it.
15:02 < Feanor> 8C46 is the latest build
15:02  * akh awards newmanbe two certificates of redundancy certificates
15:02 < newmanbe> Ooh, now I have three!
15:03 < akh> And they all look the same.  ;-)
15:04 < akh> There really wasn't that much time between the 8c46 seed and the 10.4.2 release to change stuff, in any case.
15:04 < newmanbe> They're in my mind brain, I can and and may change them when ever I need or want to change them.
15:04 < akh> But if they're the same then they're redundant...
15:05 < newmanbe> akh: It was a pre-planned release.
15:05 < newmanbe> They've made it all years ago.
15:05 < newmanbe> None of the developers actually do anything but man da' Radar black hole.
15:06 < newmanbe> Everything is automated that they don't develop themselves.
15:06  * akh awards newmanbe a tinfoil hat.  ;-)
15:06 < newmanbe> Yay!
15:08 < newmanbe> Disk Copy say the CD-WO disc doesn't have the same UDIF-md5 as the image does.
15:08  * newmanbe goes to get another CD-WO disc.
15:08 < hramrach> What is CD-WO?
15:09 < cirdan> cd write once
15:10  * newmanbe goes to look for a copy of the Wisconsin Constitution to maybe call da' public radio people. 
15:11 < newmanbe> Oh, not for another 40 minutes.
15:11 < newmanbe> #fink, /me's journal.
15:12 -!- chris01 [~chris01@212.126.165.246] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
15:13 -!- cianhughes [~cian@cian.ws] has quit [Client Quit]
15:13 < newmanbe> Hmm, md5sum and Disk Copy give different md5's.
15:13 < hramrach> hehe :)
15:14 < hramrach> And do they give twice the same sum?
15:15 < hramrach> For me iMac locks up as soon as I insert a CD :)
15:15 < newmanbe> The CD is scratched, but the md5 is matches the ISO which matches what the people said.
15:17 < hramrach> So all is good, except Disk Copy :)
15:17 < hramrach> !lart apple for making lousy software
15:17  * Melian takes out a cattle prod and gives apple a good jolt for making lousy software
15:20 < hramrach> hehe, installing WindowMaker on GNU/Linux and the package manager asks me wether I want to start xfs and xdm at boot
15:20 < newmanbe> !lart everything SBC
15:20  * Melian holds everything SBC to the floor and spanks him with a cat-o-nine-tails
15:20  * hramrach should get a new distro until this gets too insane
15:20 < newmanbe> What's xfs?
15:21 < hramrach> X Font Server
15:21 < newmanbe> There is a wmdm.
15:21 < hramrach> Actually, I wanted wmsetbg
15:21 < newmanbe> Apple wouldn't give you the choice though.
15:22 < hramrach> yes, ther is no configuration in Aqua
15:22 < hramrach> But it has truly transparent terminals :)
15:23 < akh> true
15:24 < akh> mmm...a different o.o.o build failure.
15:24 < newmanbe> You are of course using ccache-default though.
15:25 < hramrach> though the transparent terminals are poor replacement for easy and reliable desktop switching.
15:25 < akh> newmanbe:  I had it turned off.  Not that it matters--a good chunk of the time is spent unpacking tarballs.
15:25 < newmanbe> You could use the -k flag.
15:26 -!- KraMer [~mark@adsl-70-240-229-238.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has left #fink ["Leaving"]
15:33 < akh> newmanbe:  nope.
15:33 < akh> Doesn't affect the initial unpacking.
15:37 < newmanbe> You sure?
15:38 < akh> just checked it
15:38 < newmanbe> Did  you test it?
15:39 < akh> yup
15:39 -!- Lawjoska1Away is now known as Lawjoskar
15:39 < newmanbe> Sometimes even our doc's can fall to DP's level. :-p
15:39 < cirdan> heh
15:39 < akh> Don't make me come over there.
15:40 < newmanbe> Heh, the dogs will get you.
15:40 < newmanbe> Or the cat.
15:40 < newmanbe> Or one of your experiments will blow up.
15:40 < newmanbe> Or the dragon I have.
15:41 -!- akh [~akhansen@ldx3.psfc.mit.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
15:41 < newmanbe> /mode #opendarwin +q 	_Lars__
15:41 -!- dmacks [~dmacks@netspace.org] has joined #fink
15:41 < newmanbe> dmacks!
15:41 < cirdan> newmanbe smacks dmacks
15:42 < newmanbe> What?
15:42 < newmanbe> Why?
15:42 < dmacks> wha?
15:42 < cirdan> i dunno why you did it
15:42  * cirdan is just an innocent bystandard
15:42 < cirdan> O:-)
15:43 -!- akh [~akhansen@ldx3.psfc.mit.edu] has joined #fink
15:43 < akh> stupid Colloquy...
15:43 < dmacks> Nope...wouldn't be a security hole to have fink (running as root) use "whatever files it finds laying in %b...nope no sir.
15:43 < cirdan> so how's the experiments going dmacks?
15:43 < newmanbe> s/0:-)/>:-]/
15:43 < dmacks> No boom. No cyanide spill. I'm 2-for-2
15:43 < cirdan> nice
15:43 < akh> As I was saying...I'd be more afraid of the cat (anaphylactic shock).
15:44 < akh> dmacks: But that means no publicity on the news.
15:44 < dmacks> akh: try using --no-swolen-throat, or maybe just use a different pager altogether.
15:45 < akh> *groan* Unix wordplay...
15:45 < dmacks> How do you know "no boom" doesn't mean "SWAT didn't use stun grenades to try to free my hostages"?
15:45 < akh> Ah.  Good point.
15:47 -!- linuxmaniac [~maniac@27.Red-83-38-146.pooles.rima-tde.net] has joined #fink
15:48  * akh achieved a non-fltk-related build failure in openoffice.org now.
15:48 < cirdan> yay!
15:48 < cirdan> wait...
15:48 < cirdan> :-)
15:48 < akh> "Make a binary" they say...feh!
15:49 < akh> Admittedly these are probably all issues with builddepends rather than runtime.
15:49 < akh> ooh--somebody claims rsync selfupdate is different on 10.4.2 than 10.4.1
15:50 < akh> -users
15:50  * akh checks
15:51 < akh> probably would be good to install the same fink version.
15:52 < dmacks> Looks like something wacky with his TIMESTAMP* file contents.
15:52 < dmacks> *could* be a busted mirror even.
15:52 < newmanbe> How can Knoppix find FireWire (bah, should use IEEE 1394) when the computer doesn't have IEEE 1394...
15:53 < akh> dmacks:  That's kind of what I thought.
15:53 < akh> newmanbe: it's maaaagic.
15:56 -!- linuxmaniac [~maniac@27.Red-83-38-146.pooles.rima-tde.net] has left #fink ["Leaving"]
16:00 -!- hennker [flullup@dsl-082-082-224-090.arcor-ip.net] has joined #fink
16:00 < newmanbe> Melian: Make the public radio person say da' number!
16:00  * Melian whips up public radio person say da' number! for the real quick.
16:02 < akh> 608 273 TALK?
16:03 < newmanbe> No, that is a Madison number, this show is produced in Milwaukee.
16:03 < akh> Ah.
16:03 < akh> 414 then?
16:03 < newmanbe> Making me go to their ucky website.
16:03 < newmanbe> Yes.
16:03 < newmanbe> Might have an 800 number.
16:04 < akh> Ah, yeah.
16:04 < newmanbe> Is akh the New England area Wisconsin area code expert?
16:04 < akh> I spent 7 years in Madison, so, probably I'm as good as anybody.
16:04 < newmanbe> 414-227-2050
16:05 < akh> Wouldn't have guessed that. ;-)
16:06 < newmanbe> I am in.
16:06  * newmanbe 's heart is pounding.
16:06 < newmanbe> Never done this before.
16:06  * akh is gone.
16:06 -!- akh [~akhansen@ldx3.psfc.mit.edu] has quit []
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17:02 < drm> hola
17:02 < Melian> privet
17:02 < drm> Melian: did you learn some new tricks?
17:03 < dmacks> W00t! drm!
17:04 < drm> hi dmacks
17:04 < drm> looks like you guys are getting ready for a 0.24 branch release maybe?
17:04 < dmacks> Ayup.
17:05 < dmacks> vasi & TheSin spent a while trying to figure out exactly what the dep-swapping situation is that's blocking eventual 0.24->stable.
17:06 < dmacks> I figure if 0.24 is headed to stable soon, may as well backport all the small fixes that have accumulated in HEAD, so that "stable" will actually be a fairly clean thing.
17:06 < drm> makes sense
17:07  * drm is at a conference this week, still not really *back*
17:12 < newmanbe> Bad Melian!
17:13 < newmanbe> Bad! Bad! Bad!
17:13 < dmacks> !botsitinthecorner
17:13  * drm is fond of Melian
17:14  * newmanbe is not fond of her stealing my job!
17:14 < dmacks> vasi's list of major 0.24.8 changes is http://paste.lisp.org/display/9868
17:15 < RangerRick> drm: so I'm gonna have to do some major package moving to get kde in stable
17:15 < drm> ok
17:15 < RangerRick> including freetype219, python24, and some other stuff that will take some real work  :(
17:15 < dmacks> RangerRick: fltk-x11 is not ready for stable.
17:15 < RangerRick> dmacks: yeah, that too
17:16 < RangerRick> I'm starting to move over what I can now
17:16 < RangerRick> but the rest will take some coordination
17:18 < dmacks> Someone got latest evolution to build on OS X, now just waiting for a bnuch of libs to catch up (I think it required CVS versions of some of them)
17:22 < drm> BTW, python22 is not going to move forward to the 10.4 tree
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17:28 < cirdan> whee.
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17:41 -!- You're now known as RangerAway
17:42 < cirdan> hey, i wanna match a string that doesn't end with .foo
17:42 < cirdan> and if it doesn't, i wanna append .foo to it
17:42 < cirdan> any ideas? (in perl)
17:45 -!- Lawjoskar is now known as LawjoskarAway
17:58 < dmacks> cirdan: So you want to do s/{not ".foo"}$/.foo/ and don't know how to say {not ".foo"}
18:00 < dmacks> Simplest way is s/(\.foo)?$/.foo/
18:00 < dmacks> (which doe *not* work by the concept I propsed:)
18:00 < dmacks> *proposed
18:02 < dmacks> The literal implementation of what would be: s/(?<!\.foo)$/.foo/
18:07 -!- hennker [flullup@dsl-082-082-224-090.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["leaving"]
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18:44 < cirdan> ugh
18:44 < cirdan> dmacks: i'm using the perl 'rename' util
18:44 < cirdan> it's quite handy
18:49 < dmacks> Heh...is that the one that's documented to be a buggy, outdated piece of crap code?
18:49 < cirdan> no, it's the undocumented one :-)
18:50 < cirdan> # Revision 1.5  1998/12/18 16:16:31  rmb1
18:50 < cirdan> woot.
18:50 < dmacks> I don't disagree about the handiness of said example script though.
18:50 < dmacks> Yeah, I think that's the one.
18:55 < dmacks> meme doesn't go back far enough to find our previous discussion about it:)
18:55 < cirdan> hehe
18:55 < dmacks> !lart rand and his MIA FinkBot
18:55  * Melian accelerates a free AOL cd to 50,000 rpm and lets rand and his MIA FinkBot feel it
18:55 < cirdan> rename 's/$/.torrent/ if m/10.*/' 10.000.Maniacs-In.My.Tribe
18:55 < cirdan> that works
18:56 < dmacks> Yup. That's unrelated to what you asked, but that will do precisely what it does.
18:56 < cirdan> no, that works :-)
18:56 < jack-> isnt that what most things do, dmacks
18:56 < cirdan> the 2nd part isn't needed so much
18:56 < jack-> in like 100% of all imaginable cases?
18:56 < cirdan> heh
18:56 < jack-> ;)
18:56 < dmacks> jack-: Ayup.
18:57 < cirdan> wunderbar!
18:58 < cirdan> rename 's/$/.torrent/ unless m/.torrent$/' *   # final version
18:59 < dmacks> Mine was prolly more efficient:)
18:59 < dmacks> Only gotta fire up the regex engine once.
18:59 < cirdan> heh
18:59 < cirdan> i don't mind the extra .0000025s
19:00 < cirdan> besides, i can understand this one ;-)
19:00 < dmacks> (you should backwhack the period in the m//; and the "m" isn't needed so net-net it doens't cost you any extra keystrokes)
19:02 < dmacks> (...otherwise you'd rename all your .asstorrent files also)
19:03 < dmacks> (or whatever other kinds of torrent-derived things there might be)
19:08 < cirdan> heh
19:08 -!- newmanbe [~newmanbe@609622c150ffabb4.session.tor] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
19:12 < cirdan> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20050714144923365
19:12 < cirdan> :-)
19:13 < dmacks> Yup.
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19:56 < dmacks> Clef: Maybe it's time to close this now? http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=769926&group_id=17203&atid=367203
19:58 < newmanbe> All closed, all the time.
20:17 -!- Feanor_ [~astrange@feanor.developer.opendarwin] has quit []
20:17 < newmanbe> Hmm, /me commands CIA-2 to join.
20:17 < newmanbe> Who is driftkop?
20:17 < newmanbe> Other than the maintainer for emboss.info.
20:17 < newmanbe> s/emboss.info/emboss/
20:17 < dmacks> "The Anorexic Cafe: Now closed 24x7"
20:17 < dmacks> He's a biochemistish guy...North Carolina last I knew.
20:17 < newmanbe> What's with all these scientists?
20:17 < dmacks> You'd prefer fink be full of politicians?
20:17 < newmanbe> Fink is full of packages.
20:18 < newmanbe> Always trying to get what they want, with little regard to others.
20:18 < newmanbe> Fink is full of politicians.
20:18 < dmacks> And fink is just a tool for using others.
20:19 < newmanbe> megahal: What is Fink?
20:19 < newmanbe> Melian: What is Fink?
20:19 < Melian> I think you lost me on that one, newmanbe
20:19 < newmanbe> Other than the fact that it isn't Debian.
20:19 < dmacks> (no megahal:(
20:21 < dmacks> !seen akh
20:21 < Melian> akh <~akhansen@ldx3.psfc.mit.edu> was last seen on IRC in channel #fink, 4h 16m 33s ago, saying: 'Wouldn't have guessed that. ;-)'.
20:21 < cirdan> heh
20:22 < newmanbe> Actually, the last thing he said was not that.
20:22 < newmanbe> [15:15 53] 	*	akh is gone.
20:25 -!- Murr [~neeri@A17-202-20-71.apple.com] has quit ["Leaving"]
20:31 < knghtbrd> hmm, sdl-config --libs spits out -L/sw/lib -lSDLmain, and there is /sw/lib/libSDLmain.a, but I get:
20:32 < knghtbrd> /usr/bin/ld: can't locate file for: -lSDLmain
20:33 -!- Murr [~neeri@A17-202-20-71.apple.com] has joined #fink
20:33 < knghtbrd> does this have anything to do with Darwin's batshit insane use of Mach-O?  =)
20:34 < pogma> knghtbrd: does -lSDLmain actually appear on the link line?
20:35 < pogma> knghtbrd: I bet someone is not using sdl-config, or is ignoring the result
20:35 < knghtbrd> pogma: it's my make line.
20:37 < knghtbrd> I see why it's borking though
20:37 < pogma> knghtbrd: I should have read properly :)
20:37 -!- akh [~akhansen@68-118-244-23.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #fink
20:37 < jack-> just ld your .a to get a .la maybe, and try again
20:38 < pogma> huh? That's even worse than me :-p
20:38 < knghtbrd> there we go, now it finds all of the libs, but still can't link (as should be the case!)
20:38 < jack-> erm, i mean ranlib it
20:38 < knghtbrd> I'm porting shit that uses X11/OpenGL to SDL
20:39 < knghtbrd> And I mean, it calls xlib functions.
20:39  * knghtbrd convulses
20:39 < akh> crossplatform?
20:39 < knghtbrd> Not yet it's not
20:39 < jack-> i did a few of those too, being an xmms visualization freak
20:40 < knghtbrd> I'm basically building an equivalent to icculus quake2
20:40 < jack-> only thing i failed at was xvidmodeextension etc, its just not available in any mac-x11 clone
20:40 < jack-> nice :)
20:40 < knghtbrd> none of us quake hackers had the good sense to just compile the fracking thing for SDL, make the result work cross-platform, and do NOTHING ELSE to it.
20:40 < akh> heh
20:41 < jack-> hope its gonna be that "simple" ;)
20:41 < knghtbrd> jack-: I've ported Quake to SDL before  ;)
20:41 < jack-> ok, guess you're qualified then
20:41 < jack-> hehe
20:42 < knghtbrd> granted, I haven't touched Quake, OpenGL, or SDL in three years now.
20:42 < jack-> there will be a few surprises maybe :) but it wont hurt
20:42 -!- LawjoskarAway is now known as Lawjoskar
20:42 < jack-> i'd love it if someone did that with the unreal engine
20:43 < jack-> ut 4.36 in x11 would rule
20:43 < knghtbrd> BUT, I have quake building on Linux using OSS sound and X11/GLX (unmodified, which means it doesn't work right in XFree4/X.Org), and I have gotted the Linux/OSS sound code with #if 0 to port it to SDL
20:43 < dmacks> pogma: Did you hear? You've been nominated to rewrite the dependency engine. Congratulations!
20:43 < knghtbrd> The last time I did it, I was able to leave Linux/OSS sound in place while i hacked SDL video into place with an axe
20:44 < pogma> dmacks: Okay, I'll do it on my 65th birthday (unless someone else gets there first)
20:44 < dmacks> I'm guessing nobody will.
20:45 < pogma> :/
20:45 -!- Jerub [~gideon@webserver.suqueensland.org.au] has joined #fink
20:46 < Jerub> is it possible to have a fink tree that can be used to build things in a chroot that only contains the fink tree?
20:46 < Jerub> i.e. not depend on any system libs at all.
20:46 -!- regeya_ [~shane@adsl-sp3-cdale176.micgi.com] has quit [Client Quit]
20:46 < dmacks> No...damn near everything links to libSystem.dylib and often other /usr/lib things.
20:47 < dmacks> (fink sits on top of OS X, not along side it)
20:52 < Jerub> hmm.
20:52 < Jerub> okay, thanks.
20:55 -!- akh [~akhansen@68-118-244-23.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has left #fink []
20:56 -!- akh_gone [~akhansen@68-118-244-23.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #fink
20:57 -!- akh_gone is now known as akh
20:59 < dmacks> akh: there's a documentation suggestoin on -beginners
21:00 -!- baba [~baba@YahooBB220041000208.bbtec.net] has joined #fink
21:00 < akh> dmacks:  Saw it--and I agree.
21:00 < dmacks> "nice packaging design decision, apple!"
21:01 < akh> It should probably go into the X11 FAQ too.
21:01 < akh> Seems pretty ass-backwards to me.
21:01 < dmacks> Yeah...wherever users would look for "fink is trying to install xfree86/xorg!"
21:03  * akh won't be able to do default installs of XCode until they go back to making the X11SDK an optional package.
21:03 < akh> grrr....
21:04 < akh> But for the nonce, I'll revel in my Xorg-enabled Debian.
21:04 < akh> aaahh!
21:04 < dmacks> Can you cross-compile oo.o on it for OS X?
21:04 < akh> I don't think I've got the disk space.
21:05 < akh> I can't resize the NTFS partition with parted, and Partition Magic won't touch ReiserFS.
21:06 < cirdan> heh
21:06 < akh> So I haven't been motivated actually to do it.
21:07 < akh> I'll just keep posting error messages about o.o.o so that people can figure out build conflicts for me.  ;-)
21:08 < akh> The sad part is I don't really need it--NeoOffice/J does just fine for me.
21:08 < cirdan> hehe
21:09 < dmacks> How 'bout remove-all-non-essential
21:09 < cirdan> dmacks: sure, but that doesn't discover buildconflicts
21:09 < akh> Right--I'm doing this for the benefit of the project.
21:09 < cirdan> akh: maybe the package should test to see if you have enough free space on %b ;-)
21:09 < akh> And to be a PITA.  ;-)
21:09 < cirdan> akh: hehe
21:09 < akh> cirdan:  That's probably a good plan.
21:10 < dmacks> cirdan: It's alrady approaching 'BuildConflicts:*'  status
21:10 < cirdan> "Sorry, you don't have 55G free temp space. no build for you!"
21:10 < akh> If it's really 55 then it wouldn't work for me, anyway.
21:11 < cirdan> dmacks: think its an underlying build problem do I.
21:11 < dmacks> If they named the package "openofficeorg" their SplitOff InstallScript wouldn't suck quite as much
21:11 < akh> Strong with the dark side is openoffice.org.
21:11 < cirdan> heh
21:11 < Jerub> oo.org is scary
21:12 < akh> dmacks:  like xorg vs x.org, huh?
21:12 < dmacks> When 900 years you have been compiling, this much free disk space you will not have.
21:12 < cirdan> hehe
21:13 < dmacks> Holy crap akh...they download and include *2* separate copies of the whole mozilla source.
21:13 < Jerub> hah
21:13 < Jerub> dmacks: yay oo.org!
21:13 < Jerub> dmacks: they also include python!
21:13 < Jerub> the entire thing!
21:13 < cirdan> ahhhh!
21:13 < dmacks> "that's a little less-than-ideal perhaps"
21:13 < cirdan> ok, it's time to seriously sit down a slap these people with a large trout
21:13 < akh> dmacks, Jerub:  Wowoie.
21:14 < newmanbe> Those developers must have come from Mac OS/Microsoft Windows.
21:14 < akh> !fishslap the oo.org people
21:14 < Melian> slaps the oo.org people upside the head with a wet fish.
21:14 < newmanbe> !lilosmite the oo.org people
21:14  * Melian wallops the oo.org people with a main rotation server that needs rehubbing.  It won't take long.
21:14 < cirdan> can we look at see how debian builds this beast?
21:14 < cirdan> they g=must have found a way...
21:14 < dmacks> ...and their SplitOffs do non-portable things with tar.
21:14 < newmanbe> They got dem'themselves a website.
21:14 < akh> Debian's method sounds like a start, anyway.
21:15 -!- baba [~baba@YahooBB220041000208.bbtec.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
21:15 < cirdan> akh: right, it's usually easier to stand on the shoulders of giants
21:15  * dmacks wonders if baba is off to go warn Todai of the rebellion fomenting here:)
21:15 < akh> It'd be nice to have a non-destructive build process before we say "screw it" and put a copy in the bindist.
21:15 < cirdan> esp. large ones with strong polocies :-)
21:15 < newmanbe> Rebellion?
21:15 < cirdan> akh: just use baba's build :-)
21:16 < akh> cirdan:  Even if they don't have KDE 3.4 in binary form yet...
21:16 < dmacks> Todai spent a lot of time and effort doing this pk...it's custom-written for fink, not much based on outside influences from what I can tell.
21:16 < cirdan> akh: you want bleeding edge/hands go to gentto :-p
21:16 < akh> Pass
21:16 < cirdan> right, i'll take stable > new
21:16 < Jerub> you've gotta hand it to the oo.org guys
21:16  * akh just figures if Fink has a package it's gott abe pretty old.
21:17 < cirdan> haha
21:17 < akh> (plenty of supporting examples)
21:17 < akh> "I want my Gnome 2.8"
21:17 < cirdan> heh
21:17 < Jerub> there's enough interoperation between C, C++, Java, Python and Basic in their codebase I'm amazed they don't include the text of the bibiel
21:17 < cirdan> heh
21:18 < akh> Jerub:  If you apply a certain mathematical function to the source tree...
21:18 < akh> But I've said too much.
21:18 < dmacks> Too busy reading it, trying to determine what sacrifice is needed to get it built.
21:18 < akh> 55 Gigs
21:18 < cirdan> hahaha
21:18 < akh> And 16 hours
21:18 < cirdan> 16 hous is short
21:18 < cirdan> no way on the 55G part though
21:18 < akh> And possibly XCode 2.1
21:19 < cirdan> ok
21:19 < akh> (getting rid of it, that is)
21:19 -!- dmacks is now known as dmacks_away
21:19 < cirdan> here it is: http://packages.debian.org/unstable/source/openoffice.org
21:19 < cirdan> check out the changelog :-)
21:20 < akh> And that's the stable version.
21:20 < cirdan> no, unstable
21:20 < cirdan> hmm, "build with system-python on sid"
21:21 < akh> Rather, what the oo.o folks consider release.
21:21 < cirdan> system-python.diff
21:21 < cirdan> w00t.
21:21 < cirdan> ah
21:22  * cirdan thinks this needs looking into
21:22 < cirdan> they have a 4.7M gz patchfile :-)
21:22 < akh> ouch.
21:22  * newmanbe gets cirdan's Sherlock Holmes hat and pipe.
21:23 < newmanbe> !give cirdan his Sherlock Holmes hat and pipe
21:23 < newmanbe> !make cirdan his Sherlock Holmes hat and pipe
21:23  * Melian whips up his Sherlock Holmes hat and pipe for cirdan real quick.
21:23 < cirdan> heh
21:23 < akh> He might need Holmes' "stimulant" as well for this project.
21:23 < newmanbe> Melian: You are a she-bot.
21:23 < Melian> newmanbe: what are you talking about?
21:23 < cirdan> newmanbe: you said it "his Sherlock Holmes"
21:24 < newmanbe> But she's still wrong.
21:24 < cirdan> you'r wring
21:24 < akh> newmanbe:  Only because the antecedent is ambiguous
21:24 < cirdan> !give me Sherlock Holmes's hat and pipe
21:25 < cirdan> !make me Sherlock Holmes's hat and pipe
21:25  * Melian whips up Sherlock Holmes's hat and pipe for cirdan real quick.
21:25 < newmanbe> Melian should have just known what I wanted.
21:25 < newmanbe> :-p
21:25 < cirdan> heh
21:25 < akh> !give should use "...trots out..." or something.
21:25 < cirdan> heh
21:25 < akh> Ugh---when are the Dennis remnants going to show up?
21:26 < akh> I gave up biking today because I thought I'd be riding home in a thunderstorm.
21:26 < akh> !lart the Weather Channel for lying.
21:26  * Melian puts on a hockey mask and jumps out at the Weather Channel for lying.
21:27 < akh> !botsnack
21:27 < Melian> akh: aw, gee
21:27 < cirdan> hmm
21:51 -!- xhrl [~ThomasW@24.80.39.250] has joined #fink
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22:07 -!- dmacks_away is now known as dmacks
22:14 < akh> hmmm...BuildConflicts: *
22:14 < newmanbe> BuildConflicts: akh
22:15 < kalessin> BuildConflicts: fink, dpkg ?
22:15 < akh> It's ironic too--for years I was one of the few Fink users who actually had mozilla build for them.
22:15  * newmanbe doesn't have the patience for that.
22:15 < newmanbe> Not worth it.
22:15 < dmacks> ...and now you're having it build for you, what, twice a day?
22:15 < akh> At least.
22:16 < akh> well, if it ever got there anyway.
22:16 < akh> And I did test firefox on Panther last night for the maintainer, so that counts, too.
22:17 < akh> Let's see what removing openldap-ssl-dev does...
22:17 < akh> Although--I probably shouldn't bother until I buy a new HD.
22:18 -!- IRCMonkey [~chatzilla@dsl-200-95-55-223.prod-infinitum.com.mx] has joined #fink
22:18 < akh> 20 gigs free may not cut it.
22:19 < dmacks> Probably not even close.
22:19 < akh> a 300 gig drive would do nicely.
22:19 -!- IRCMonkey [~chatzilla@dsl-200-95-55-223.prod-infinitum.com.mx] has quit [Client Quit]
22:20 < akh> Or maybe I can symlink fink.build onto a removable for now...
22:20 < dmacks> Yeah...then you could store *all* your pr0n, plus have space left to compile something the size of...um...xttitle?
22:21 < akh> ;-)
22:21 < dmacks> Oh *that* wouldn't be slow...oo.o built over a USB cable.
22:21 < akh> Naw--firewire
22:21 < akh> half the suckage
22:21 < newmanbe> s/firewire/IEEE 1394/
22:22 < dmacks> Wouldn't it be cool if regexen really did have an effect in the Real World?
22:22  * akh has an 80 gig spare partition on my 'IEEE 1394' drive?
22:22 < newmanbe> dmacks: The television show?
22:22 < akh> s/?/.
22:22 < akh> That too.
22:23 < newmanbe> You forgot the terminating "/".
22:23 < akh> oops.
22:23 < dmacks> "I'm thirsty, but there's only one beer left in the fridge... s/beer/more beer/ w00t!"
22:23 < akh> That'd be nice.  
22:24 < akh> (and now you've gone and reminded me that I've still got half an hour available to buy beer)
22:24 < cirdan> heh
22:24 < kalessin> If I could just apply s/do it yourself/of course dear/ to my wife..
22:24 < dmacks> Stupid .ma blue laws?
22:24 < newmanbe> cd ~/frigde/beer;./configure;make;makeinstall
22:24 < newmanbe> s/makeinstall/make install/
22:25 < akh> dmacks:  I think there might be other stores around that close at midnight.
22:25 < akh> Unlike where I went to grad school where the liquor stores close at 9.
22:25 < dmacks> Yikes!
22:25 < newmanbe> Walmart, open everyday but Christmas for 24 hours a day.
22:25 < akh> dmacks:  it was apparently due to the bar lobby.
22:26 < akh> 10000 legal-aged undergrads + grad students = much drinking.
22:26 < akh> (plus the 30000 illegal undergrads)
22:26 < cirdan> hehe
22:26 < cirdan> where u go to school, akh?
22:26  * kalessin is sad that UW-Madison isn't the drinkingest school around anymore.
22:26 < akh> Wisconsin--Madison
22:27 < cirdan> ah
22:27 < cirdan> heheh
22:27 < dmacks> Things PDRNJ is good for: #1 cheap alcohol, #2 making neighboring states relax their blue laws, #3...um...
22:27 < newmanbe> Bucky badger!
22:27 < kalessin> akh How long ago did you go?  Who did you study under?
22:27 < akh> kalessin:  when I was there we led the US in binge drinking.
22:27 < cirdan> dmacks: there are a few towns in NJ that are dry...
22:27 < cirdan> just a few though
22:27 < akh> I graduated in 2000 from Physics.
22:27 < dmacks> Too many traffic circles and jug-handles to have room to build a packie?
22:27 < kalessin> akh heh.  I started my undergrad here in '98.
22:28 < newmanbe> akh: You must a' join the #physics. (In an Italian accent).
22:28 < cirdan> hey dmacks, you see the link to debian's oo.org patchfile?
22:28 < akh> kalessin: So we probably overlapped a bit--I think I took my last class in '96.
22:28 < cirdan> 4.7Mb .gz :-)
22:28 < akh> (so no classes in common)
22:28 < dmacks> cirdan: holy crap.
22:29 < kalessin> akh I did EE/CS, and only some very basic non-device physics.
22:29 < cirdan> dmacks: yeah, but they use system-python to build ;-)
22:29  * akh did a distributed minor in CS.
22:29 < cirdan> dmacks: http://packages.debian.org/unstable/source/openoffice.org
22:29 < kalessin> akh Who did you work with in CS?
22:29 < knghtbrd>         SUCCESS         glquake.glx
22:29 < knghtbrd> holy crap, it links!
22:29 < akh> I didn't really "work" there--just took two classes.  ;-)
22:30 < dmacks> cirdan: Why aren't we at least using our own python? Many/most users have it already (and with correct patches/etc)
22:30 < Jerub> knghtbrd: oh dude! that rocks.
22:30 < cirdan> dmacks: no idea
22:30 < akh> The upper level one was with Jude Shavlik (Intro to AI)
22:30 < Jerub> knghtbrd: I remember you from #glx years ago :)
22:30 < cirdan> prolly cause it needs patching?
22:30 -!- newmanbe [~newmanbe@dacf78b4c5555c0c.session.tor] has quit ["This setback in computing brought to you by SCO Group."]
22:30 < cirdan> knghtbrd: building quake for os x?
22:31 < cirdan> hmm
22:31 < knghtbrd> cirdan: porting to SDL, yes
22:31 < dmacks> ...and our Mazola, or Mozilla, or whatever else.
22:31 < kalessin> akh I never took any of Shavlik's stuff.  I heard it was -terrible-.  CS540, ya?
22:31 < cirdan> knghtbrd: ugh. why?
22:31 < dmacks> Either fink's pkg has better patches, or oo.o should contribute to them so they are improved.
22:31 < cirdan> dmacks: look at the debian changelog on that page
22:31 < cirdan> :-)
22:31 < knghtbrd> cirdan: It isn't much of a surprise that I got it to build though, it's been a few years but I know Quake and I know SDL.
22:31 < cirdan> heh
22:32 < akh> kalessin: Yup--I thought it was all right, though--didn't really retain any of it.
22:32 < dmacks> cirdan: wow.
22:32 < knghtbrd> it doesn't sigsegv on execution!
22:32 < cirdan> haha
22:32 < cirdan> SIGBEER!
22:32 < knghtbrd> knghtbrd@yumi:~/Source/refquake/refquake/client-nq$ ./glquake.glx
22:32 < knghtbrd> FindFile: can't find gfx/pop.lmp
22:32 < knghtbrd> Playing shareware version.
22:32 < knghtbrd> FindFile: can't find gfx.wad
22:32 < knghtbrd> this means I need to copy an id1 dir from somewhere  =)
22:32 < Jerub> knghtbrd: buildbot is your friend.
22:33 < cirdan> hehe
22:34 < knghtbrd> Error: memory overwrite in Sys_Printf
22:34 < knghtbrd> haha
22:34 < cirdan> whee
22:34 < knghtbrd> I know how that happened
22:34 < knghtbrd> it tried to print the extensions string into a 1024 byte buffer
22:34 < cirdan> whee
22:36 < cirdan> dmacks: they have a lot of good patches for oo there
22:36 < cirdan> hehe: * wbb4 still needs to remember to kick mww in the shins
22:36 < dmacks> tell todai.
22:37  * akh browses the Debian sci package list to look for anything to add to Fink.
22:37 < cirdan> :-)
22:37 < cirdan> freshmeat is a good place to look
22:38 < akh> Yeah--I found one that purported to be OS X compatible, and had an earlier version where somebody recommended using Fink libs, but it wouldn't even configure for me.
22:39 < knghtbrd> Jerub: don't suppose you happen to know offhand how to make SDL not go fullscreen when you ask for SDL_OPENGL?
22:41 < akh> hmmm...wonder why clepple hasn't made his geda-bundle avaialble.
22:41 < akh> Is it in the tracker?
22:45 < akh> Maybe I'll email him and find out.
22:46 < dmacks> There are a few trackers about geda IIRC
22:46 < akh> Ah--OK
22:46 < akh> Just not recent enough for GMANE I guess.
22:46 < akh> There are some recent posts by people who've installed it.
22:47 < dmacks> Yeah...I think I had looked at it (either testing a submission or trying to port it myself) and thought "hmm...didn't think that was public"
22:48 < akh> He's got a website where you can check out the package description files.
22:48 < akh> A concept that I find vaguely unsettling--must be the control freak in me.
22:48 < dmacks> It's in submissions, 25 months old, unchanged for 13 months.
22:49 < akh> Ah--well people say it builds
22:50 < akh> The validator's probably changed in that interval, so it's probably worth a new look.
22:50 < akh> But not tonight by me.
22:50 < dmacks> So have who-knows-how-many dependent libs
22:51 -!- kalessin [~crhalpin@adsl-68-78-232-23.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit ["."]
22:51 < akh> Yup.  I'll check if clepple's posted files are more current.
22:52 < akh> If so then I might take the liberty of attaching them to the tracker item and resurrecting it.
22:52 < akh> Or if I like the stuff, maybe I'll just commit it to unstable myself- (not as maintainer).  At least it won't take 50 gigs of temp space.
22:53 < akh> I'll drop him an email before I do that, though.
22:53 < knghtbrd> http://warped.bluecherry.net/~knghtbrd/refquake/quake00.png
22:54 < knghtbrd> ^^^ it ALMOST works  ;)
22:54 < akh> mmm...red
22:54 < Jerub> knghtbrd: no, I'm not an SDL hacker.
22:54 -!- akh [~akhansen@68-118-244-23.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [""goodnight peeps""]
22:54 < knghtbrd> Jerub: I did get it to behave
22:56 -!- kalessin [~crhalpin@adsl-68-78-232-23.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #fink
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23:14 < cirdan> w00t.
23:14 < cirdan> http://www.aim-digest.com/gateway/pages/general/articles/sleep.htm
23:19 < dmacks> "2. Use the bed and bedroom only for sleep and sex
23:19 < cirdan> hehe
23:19 < dmacks> "3. [whatever]
23:19 < dmacks> "4. Repeat this step as often as necessary
23:19 < cirdan> haha
23:20 < cirdan> a nightcap usually does help me to sleep throuout the night
23:20 < cirdan> only if i drink very heavily does it keep me up
23:21 < dmacks> I wonder how much NIH paid for t he study that found that taking stimulants leads to sleeplessness.
23:21 < cirdan> and 15 shots of 80-100 proof booze == a lot
23:21 < cirdan> :-)
23:21 < cirdan> dmacks: you don;t wanna know
23:21 < cirdan> :-)
23:21 < dmacks> I like how the article claims more than 1-2 drinks is a lot.
23:21 < cirdan> for a nightcap?
23:21 < cirdan> woot: Scandanavian Medical Alcohol Board
23:22 < cirdan> can we have one of those?
23:22 < cirdan> can i be on it? ;-)
23:22 < cirdan> The Fink Alcohol Board
23:22 < dmacks> I an't havin' no dinky night-beret, I tell you what-what.
23:22 < cirdan> hehe
23:22 < cirdan> dmacks: 2 shots of 99-whatever is delicious before bed :-)
23:23 < cirdan> 99apples + 99bananas
23:23 < cirdan> mmm
23:23 < dmacks> 99luftbalons?
23:23 < cirdan> dmacks: my only demima is do i have a nightcap, or a nyquil?
23:23 < kalessin> "This is it boys, this is war...
23:24 < dmacks> Nena's prolly too old for a quick 'night-cap' IYKWIM
23:24 < dmacks> cirdan: Why choose?
23:24 < cirdan> IDKWYM, but who's nena?
23:24 < dmacks> Singer of 99luftbalons
23:25 < cirdan> ah
23:25 < cirdan> heh
23:25 < cirdan> ok, nighttime
23:25 < dmacks> heal thyself.
23:25 < cirdan> 99apples wins
23:25 < cirdan> :-)
23:26 < cirdan> the alcohol will help kill the infection :-)
23:26 < dmacks> In college we described our nights out as "going to get sterilized"
23:26 < cirdan> hahaha
23:26 < cirdan> aye
23:27 < cirdan> yeah, philly is a very steril towne :-)
23:28 < dmacks> Providence. Philly was grad school. (same amount of drinking, but may as well be historically accurate)
23:29 < cirdan> heh
23:29 < Jerub> I spent my years in education getting learning, not booze ;)
23:29 < cirdan> you missed out :-)
23:30 < kalessin> I got education until I turned 21.  :-)
23:30 < Jerub> hah, we drink legally at 18 here
23:30 < kalessin> I'd prefer not ot be blamed for some of the stupid laws my country does.
23:31 < kalessin> s/ot/to/
23:31 < kalessin> s/does/has/
23:34 < kalessin> Anyway. :-)
23:34 < cirdan> heh
23:34 < dmacks> Speaking of which... http://online.wsj.com/public/article/0,,SB112130747570985459-a6aQ_cM7U3ysPBEVAdU5mR7YbX8_20050813,00.html
23:34 < cirdan> nothing clears the throat like a shot or 2 of bacardi 151 or everclear
23:34 < cirdan> :-)
23:34 < kalessin> mmm...151.
23:35 < kalessin> There's something just delightful about drinking things that can burn.
23:35 < cirdan> heh
23:35 < cirdan> so true
23:35 < dmacks> Mmmm...Sambuca....
23:35 < cirdan> too many shots of that though, and it'll give you a sore throat ;-)
23:35 < kalessin> You don't notice it for a while though.
23:37 < kalessin> dmacks If I remember correctly, that guy got a scholarship for his invention.
23:37 < dmacks> Awesome.
23:40 < kalessin> http://studentservices.engr.wisc.edu/innovation/1996.html
23:40 < cirdan> cool invention
23:55 -!- kalessin [~crhalpin@adsl-68-78-232-23.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit ["sleep."]
23:59 -!- vasi [~vasi@modemcable133.147-70-69.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #fink
23:59 < runelind> anyone else have a DA powermac?
--- Log closed Fri Jul 15 00:00:04 2005