--- Log opened Fri Jul 15 00:00:04 2005
--- Day changed Fri Jul 15 2005
00:00 < runelind> I'm trying to figure out how to plug in a microphone into this thing
00:00 < Jerub> what's DA mean?
00:00 < Jerub> I've got the dual2ghz one.
00:00 < runelind> digital audio
00:00 < Jerub> yeah, got some bad news for you.
00:00 < Jerub> you need a mic preamp.
00:00 < runelind> that's ghetto
00:00 < Jerub> oh, it annoyed me no end.
00:01 < Jerub> you've either gotta use a USB microphone (like for the mac mini) or use a mic preamp so you can feed the mic to line-in at enough ampag.e
00:01 < runelind> yeah the mic input doesn't seem to fit the mic
00:03 < vasi> dmacks, i don't get what you wanted me to look at in postinstall.in....it looks identical in 0.24 and 0.25
00:03 < Jerub> runelind: what I did was feed the mic to the soundblaster live on my linux box, and feed the line out from the linux box to the mac.
00:03 < Jerub> it's a really really dodgy hack.
00:04 < runelind> heh yeah
00:04 < Jerub> after I find the charger for my bluetooth handsfree kit, I intend to use that instead.
00:04 < runelind> I can't get a bluetooth headset to work with tiger
00:05 < runelind> just says hardware not supported
00:05 < Jerub> blast.
00:05 < runelind> cause I have some ghetto usb dongle
00:05 < Jerub> hm. I have the dlink one that apple ship for people who didn't get bluetooth builtin.
00:06 < Jerub> (my wife got it becuase she needed her ibook *now* and not in 4-6 weeks, so got ibook sans bluetooth + bluetooth dongle)
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00:06 < runelind> maybe that will work better, but I dunno
00:07 < Jerub> no idea myself either
00:08 < dmacks> vasi: /me looks......
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00:12 < dmacks> hrm...looks the same to me too:) Wonder if I was looking at .pl not .pl.in and hadn't regenerated 'em?
00:13 -!- vasi [~vasi@modemcable133.147-70-69.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #fink
00:13 < dmacks> < dmacks> hrm...looks the same to me too:) Wonder if I was looking at .pl not .pl.in and hadn't regenerated 'em?
00:14 < vasi> possible!
00:14 < dmacks> A key feature meld does *not* have is respect for .cvsignore files.
00:15 < dmacks> We should have a 'clean' target in the Makefile.
00:15 < vasi> well i can't use it anyhow :-/
00:15 < vasi> yeah, that would make sense
00:15 < vasi> maybe even generate 'clean' from the .cvsignores :-)
00:16  * dmacks was just about to type that.
00:17  * dmacks recently ate huge (free!) meal...is now a bit slow...
00:17 < vasi> find . -type -d | while read d; do cd $d; xargs rm -rf < .cvsignore; done
00:17 < vasi> that should work, or something like it
00:18 < vasi> (er, might need some parens for the cd to work?)
00:19 < vasi> i just found out about the fink-tracker list...why didn't anybody ever mention it?
00:19 < dmacks> find . -name .cvsignore -execdir rm `cat {}`\;
00:20 < vasi> that too :-)
00:20 < vasi> but i still prefer xargs to back-quotes
00:22 < dmacks> 'cat .cvsignore | xargs rm' is better than 'rm `cat .cvsignore`'?
00:22 < vasi> xargs rm -f < .cvsignore
00:23 < vasi> Excessive use of cat is harmful :-)
00:25 < dmacks> Regardless, we're still a bit screwed by globbing
00:26 < dmacks> May have to eval. Yech
00:26 < Jerub> hm?
00:27 < dmacks> Jerub: .cvsignore can (and does) contain shell wildcards.
00:27 < Jerub> write a python script using the glob module
00:28 < dmacks> backwhack works in eval , xargs does not:)
00:28 < vasi> er, i think your solution works with globs
00:28 < vasi> yeah
00:28 < vasi> i wasn't aware you could glob in .cvsignore :-)
00:29 < dmacks> You learn that, I learn the -execdir flag; we all win!
00:33 < dmacks> Except backtick works *too* well (during the initial shell setup of the find command itself, not during each -execdir call
00:35 < vasi> oh yeah
00:35 < vasi> i was just at a meeting for the montreal LUG, it's apparently being revived
00:36 < dmacks> nice
00:36 < vasi> there were even some mac users to try to convert to Fink :-)
00:36 < dmacks> :)
00:50 < dmacks> find . -name foo -execdir perl -e 'unlink glob qx(cat {})' \;
00:50 < dmacks> Whoops...s/foo/.cvsignore :)
00:51 < dmacks> not so pretty (need a perl-only cat?), but it works.
00:51 < vasi> trust you to randomly use perl :-)
00:51 < dmacks> ...and re-spawn to bash too:)
00:54 < vasi> woohoo, Allegro is pushing my patch upstream
00:54 < vasi> i hate the eternal-maintenance-of-ever-growing-patch-files games
00:57 < Jerub> when I'm installing stuff with fink, sometimes it drops out of the fink install <packagename> and tells me to fink build <someotherpackage>
00:57 < Jerub> is there a good reason for that? or is it just a design flaw that hasn't been worked out yet?
01:00 < dmacks> sweesweet
01:01 < vasi> Jerub, it's something we've mostly worked out
01:01 < vasi> it's necessary for proper building of packages
01:01 < vasi> in newer versions of fink, it just automatically switches rather than bombing out
01:02 < Jerub> okay, good.
01:02 < vasi> but there's apparently some problem with the switching, so we haven't released that (even though nobody seems to be able to tell me what the problem is so i can fix it, grrr)
01:02 < Jerub> vasi: I've got a project that will rely on being able to programattically install packages via fink without user intervention
01:02 < Jerub> vasi: so I'll keep my ear to the ground on that one
01:02 < vasi> Jerub, details?
01:03 < vasi> if you tell me more, i might be able to tell you the best way to make it happen
01:03 < Jerub> vasi: I want to be able to deploy a buildbot buildslave on an osx machine with a mininmum of user intervention.
01:04 < Jerub> so the build master will tell the slave "I need packages x, y and z." and the slave will report back when it's finked them.
01:04 < vasi> Jerub, you may want to talk to msachs...he's planning to write an automatic-build-queue facility at some point
01:04 < Jerub> vasi: have you seen buildbot?
01:04 < vasi> nope
01:05 < vasi> this thing? http://buildbot.sourceforge.net/
01:05 < Jerub> uhh, here's a good example.
01:05 < Jerub> build.fluendo.com:8080
01:05 < Jerub> yeah, that one. but that's the gstreamer one's web interface
01:06 < vasi> looks like tinderbox
01:06 < Jerub> yeah, similar, but more flexible apparently.
01:06 < Jerub> or something
01:07 < vasi> well it really depends on your goals with your buildbox
01:07 < Jerub> well, the goal is to make it much easier than it currently is to run a slave.
01:07 < Jerub> at the moment each slave is hand-configured, and there's only one slave per column on that web-interface
01:08 < Jerub> the project is to make it obscenely easy to install a buildslave on a linux or osx machine.
01:08 < Jerub> auto-install build-dependancies without any user-input.
01:09 < vasi> ah ok...well i recommend you install fink from CVS HEAD, it's a bit more robust 
01:09 < vasi> just get the fink CVS module, and do a ./inject.pl to install
01:09 < Jerub> cool
01:09 < vasi> it has that auto-switching code
01:10 < vasi> also, msachs has some data/code to help deal with packages that try to demand user interaction, to disable it
01:10 < vasi> which he uses for his automatic build system
01:10 < vasi> so ask him about that
01:12 < vasi> in fact, you may want to even base your system on his buildfink system, in our scripts module in CVS
01:12 < vasi> it's VERY robust
01:12 < vasi> but also not so good at doing what you want :-)
01:13 < vasi> so it depends how much development you want to put into this
01:14 < dmacks> I have hundreds of extremely robust tools that don't do what he wants...where should I send them?
01:14 < vasi> dmacks, /dev/null :-P
01:14 < dmacks> :)
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02:13 < Feanor> oops i just did a fink operation locally instead of on the shell i wanted
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02:17 < Feanor> and accidentally switched to rsync selfupdate
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02:50 < _Lars__> Hi, I am looking for ncutil x86 to setup the network. (actually I cant use it)
02:50 < _Lars__> could you check with fink if such package is available ? thx
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05:43 < kapowaz> hello there
05:43 < kapowaz> I am attempting to install a few packages and am receiving the following error message at the end:
05:43 < kapowaz> Failed: buildlock failure
05:48 < nkuttler> pgsql.sh gives me an ERROR: You must set your shared memory resources higher for PostgreSQL to function. Any ideas what i can/should set the kern.sysv.shmmax in /etc/sysctl.conf to?
06:35 < kapowaz> why on earth is ruby a dependency for install subversion?
06:40 < kapowaz> and another thing
06:40 < kapowaz> why on earth has an X manager been required to install subversion, php4 and mysql?
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07:58 < kapowaz> anyone around?
07:58 < kapowaz> this is getting absurd
07:58 < kapowaz> I try to install the php4 apache 2 module
07:58 < kapowaz> and fink wants to install these modules
07:59 < newmanbe> Hi.
07:59 < kapowaz> The following package will be installed or updated:
07:59 < kapowaz>  php4-apache2-ssl
07:59 < kapowaz> The following 35 additional packages will be installed:
07:59 < kapowaz>  apache2-ssl apache2-ssl-common apache2-ssl-dev apache2-ssl-mpm-prefork apr-ssl apr-ssl-common apr-ssl-shlibs autoconf
07:59 < kapowaz>  bison curl-ssl curl-ssl-dev curl-ssl-shlibs cyrus-sasl2-dev cyrus-sasl2-shlibs db43-ssl db43-ssl-shlibs gd2 gd2-shlibs
07:59 < kapowaz>  libcurl3-ssl-shlibs libsablot-dev libsablot-shlibs net-snmp-ssl net-snmp-ssl-dev net-snmp-ssl-shlibs openldap-ssl-dev
07:59 < kapowaz>  openldap-ssl-shlibs php4-apache2-ssl-cgi postgresql80-ssl postgresql80-ssl-dev postgresql80-ssl-shlibs readline5
07:59 < newmanbe> !lisppaste
07:59 < Melian> You can use lisppaste to paste errors at http://paste.lisp.org/new/fink , instead of flooding the channel.
07:59 < kapowaz>  unixodbc2 unixodbc2-shlibs uw-imap-c-client-ssl xml-parser-pm586
07:59 < kapowaz> postgres!?
07:59 < kapowaz> fair enough
07:59 < kapowaz> but still
07:59 < kapowaz> openldap? postgres?
07:59 < kapowaz> imap clients!?
07:59 < newmanbe> IMAP clients?
08:02 < newmanbe> I don't think all of those are 100% necessary, but are frequently used with Apache,
08:03 < newmanbe> but if you are getting binaries, might be required because it was compiled with them.
08:05 < kapowaz> I can't be sure I *am* getting binaries
08:06 < kapowaz> I have the option for binary dists in my fink.conf but I've seen a lot of stuff being compiled
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08:11 -!- vektor [reet@ottawa-hs-209-217-110-213.d-ip.magma.ca] has joined #fink
08:11 < vektor> I'd like to edit the source of a library and rebuild it.  What's the correct way to do this using fink?
08:12 < newmanbe> Hi.
08:12 < newmanbe> <-- Phone call, please wait.
08:13 < newmanbe> Unless someone else wants to help.
08:18 < kapowaz> ok, installation is now failing
08:18 < kapowaz> http://pastebin.com/313841
08:21 < kapowaz> any suggestions?
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08:50 < newmanbe> No one was here to help you these people?
08:50 < newmanbe> Well anyway, phone call over.
08:50 < newmanbe> @#$%^&* State Attorney General
08:51 < kapowaz> heh
08:51 < kapowaz> you able to look at what I posted, newmanbe ?
08:51 < newmanbe> Not yet.
08:51 < newmanbe> vektor first, shorter answer.
08:51 < vektor> Thanks.
08:51 < Melian> vektor: de rien
08:51 < newmanbe> Bad Melian!
08:51 < kapowaz> ok :P
08:51 < newmanbe> vektor: move the .info file from where it is into your local tree, then edit it there.
08:52 < newmanbe> /sw/fink/local/main/finkinfo
08:52 < vektor> Is there anything special I do to create a local directory, or is it just a directory?
08:53 < newmanbe> It is just a directory, probably exists already.
08:53 < vektor> The problem with the .info file is that it's just a script.  I'd like it to pause so I can go hack code.
08:53 < chris01> vektor: also read: http://fink.sourceforge.net/doc/quick-start-pkg/
08:53 < vektor> Do you think it's safe to just run 'bash' in the middle of the script?
08:54 < chris01> vektor: section 1.2 
08:55 < vektor> Thanks, you guys have been quite helpful.
08:56 < newmanbe> kapowaz: Try removing autoconf2.5 and and then retry whatever you were trying to do.
08:57 < kapowaz> remove?
08:57 < kapowaz> fink remove autoconf ?
08:58 < newmanbe> I think so; might me uninstall; I'm still fuming.
08:58 < kapowaz> fuming?
08:58 < newmanbe> [08:00 12] 	newmanbe	@#$%^&* State Attorney General
08:59 < kapowaz> are autoconf and automake required components for fink to work?
08:59 < newmanbe> Don't think so.
09:00 < newmanbe> No, because there are different versions of autoconf you can install.
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09:01 < newmanbe> drm!
09:01 < drm> newmanbe!
09:01 < newmanbe> Ha, finally beat Melian to it.
09:01 < drm> hehe
09:05 -!- You're now known as RangerRick
09:07 < chris01> Since today i receive following error messages when fink selfupdating with rsync:
09:07 < chris01> mkstemp "/sw/fink/.VERSION.gJU0ng" failed: Permission denied
09:07 < chris01> what could that be?
09:08 < kapowaz> http://pastebin.com/313867
09:08 < chris01> (with  fink 0.24.7 on 10.3.9)
09:08 < kapowaz> ^^^ any ideas what the problems with the above are?
09:08 < chris01> kapowaz: the -ssl and the non-ssl packages can't/shouldn't be installed at the same time.
09:09 < chris01> I recommend that you only use -ssl variants. 
09:09 < kapowaz> chris01: ok so I remove it first?
09:09 < drm> chris01: what permissions does /sw/fink have?
09:10 < kapowaz> well it thinks I already have db43-ssl installed
09:10 < chris01> drm: drwxr-xr-x   10 root   admin
09:10 < drm> chris01: sounds like rsync is trying to write to that directory, and can't
09:10 < kapowaz> bah
09:11 < kapowaz> I have db43-shlibs installed and db43-ssl installed
09:11 < kapowaz> I can't remove the former without it breaking loads of dependencies
09:11  * kapowaz bangs head on desk
09:11 < kapowaz> can I force it to remove it?
09:11 < drm> kapowaz: yes
09:11 < chris01> kapowaz: yes. Use 'fink remove --recursive'
09:12 < kapowaz> that'll remove dependencies too though!
09:12 < kapowaz> which are the actual packages I wanted in the first place
09:12 < drm> kapowaz: other option is "dpkg -r --force-remove foo" or some such
09:12 < drm> kapowaz: but if you do that, be sure to install the other one right away
09:12  * drm recommends "man dpkg"
09:13  * kapowaz reads
09:13 < kapowaz> dpkg -r --ignore-depends ?
09:13 < drm> yeah
09:13 < drm> well, it should be a --force option
09:13 < drm> you need something like "dpkg --force-help" to get advice on them
09:14 < kapowaz> I did the former
09:14 < kapowaz> and then installed the ssl version
09:14 < kapowaz> no error messages
09:14 < kapowaz> trying to reinstall php5 now...
09:15 < kapowaz> I am a little dismayed by the number of dependency errors I've had
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09:16 < kapowaz> I'm getting a shitload of warnings compiling now
09:17 < kapowaz> and another failure
09:17  * kapowaz is <---> this close to saying sod it and using the entropy packages instead
09:17 < kapowaz> I don't have this many problems with debian
09:18 < drm> debian has probably 100 times as many people working on it as fink does
09:18 < kapowaz> aye
09:18 < newmanbe> kapowaz: Send e-mails to your friendly maintainers when you find something wrong in their package.
09:18 < newmanbe> And if it works.
09:18 < kapowaz> but I'd have thought that modules like apache and php would be rather commonly requested
09:18 < newmanbe> But only if it works for the unstable packages.
09:19 < kapowaz> maybe that's the problem, using unstable
09:19  * Jerub ponders if running regression testing would be that hard
09:19 < drm> if by "failure" you mean a dependency not found error, we're working on fixing the system to make those better
09:19 < kapowaz> but I wanted subversion
09:19 < RangerRick> kapowaz: we have apache2 and php, just no apache because no one wanted it enough to package it (since apple provides it)
09:19 < Jerub> cpu intensive, sure.
09:19  * drm invites Jerub to join the fink team as the Regrasion Tester :)
09:19 < drm> Regression
09:19 < kapowaz> RangerRick: aye, well it's apache2 and php I'm installing
09:19 < vektor> I have installed freetype2-hinting, but I noticed that my applications are using the libfreetype library in /usr/X11R6/lib, which is from the xfree86 package (and not compiled with the bytecode interpreter).  Any advice?
09:20 < Jerub> drm: *wink*
09:20 < Jerub> I'll get right on it.
09:20 < RangerRick> vektor: mixing and matching freetypes is a tricky business; most fink packages use the one that comes with your X11 if possible because otherwise there's dynamic loading issues
09:20 < RangerRick> vektor: there's no good way to switch without recompiling the app, and there's no good way to be sure it won't crash regularly if you do without testing
09:20 < Jerub> drm: seriously, testing is the only reason I'm using fink at all, so just writing more tests isn't a big trial.
09:20  * Jerub heads to bed
09:21 < drm> Jerub: seriously, we could use some help on this matter
09:21 < vektor> RangerRick: I'd rather not mix and match.  Should I uninstall the fink libfreetype packages, and recompile the XFree86 one to include the bytecode interpreter?
09:22 < kapowaz> okay
09:22 < kapowaz> if I wanted to remove fink from my system, would removing the entire /sw tree do that?
09:22 < RangerRick> vektor: honestly, your best bet is to just leave it alone; the byte interpreter doesn't get you much as of freetype 2.1.3 and higher (which any X11 you have installed probably has)
09:22 < drm> kapowaz: yes
09:22 < kapowaz> no other signs of it ever being installed left anywhere?
09:23 < vektor> RangerRick: Why do you say that?
09:23 < drm> there will be a line in your .profile or .tcshrc
09:23 < kapowaz> other than that
09:23 < drm> and a Receipt from the original installation in /Library/Receipts
09:23 < chris01> kapowaz: you are still having problems with the dep?
09:23 < drm> and there may have been a few users added to your system
09:23 < chris01> kapowaz: shall we try to solve it?
09:23 < kapowaz> chris01: I'm waiting for the next one.
09:23 < vektor> RangerRick: I mean, what changed as of 2.1.3?
09:24 < chris01> kapowaz: the -ssl vs non-ssl is quite known.
09:24 < kapowaz> I'm just thinking, I've got to use this for work, and I've so far spent about 8 hours on trying to get it set up
09:24 < chris01> kapowaz: uh oh... sorry to hear that.
09:24 < kapowaz> if I'd gone with the entropy packages I'd be working by now
09:24 < kapowaz> I'd *like* to use fink, if it does what it says on the tin
09:24 < RangerRick> vektor: the auto-hinting engine that's patent-free outperforms the bytecode interpreter in most cases, now, according to the freetype folks
09:24 < kapowaz> but so far it's proving a bit of a let down :|
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09:25 < chris01> kapowaz: i understand your feeling. Let's try to solve it, shall we?
09:26 < vektor> RangerRick: I think they're on crack.  The output is pretty bad.  At least for the fonts I'm using.
09:26 -!- LawjoskarAway is now known as Lawjoskar
09:26 < kapowaz> well, until this next stage has either completed or died, I will be continuing to try :)
09:27 < RangerRick> vektor: you on KDE, built from source, by any chance?  :)
09:27 < vektor> RangerRick: No.  Why?
09:27 < RangerRick> just curious, there's a bug in kde package building that makes the ~/.qt directory root-owned, which makes it impossible to turn on AA fonts
09:28 < vektor> RangerRick: No, it's not like that.  I've actually studied font hinting academically, so I know a fair bit about the topic.
09:28 < RangerRick> ok
09:28 < RangerRick> well the short version is, it's difficult to switch things out if you don't know what you're doing
09:29  * kapowaz will check back in 2 hours, I guess
09:29 < vektor> RangerRick: The autohinter works well for the bitstream fonts which were designed in a certain way, but fail on fonts like "Tahoma" or "Verdana" which were hinted manually by an expensive font house to actually change shape and other neat tricks at low pixel sizes.
09:29 < vektor> RangerRick: So, my option is to not use the microsoft fonts, or enable the bytecode hinter.
09:29 < RangerRick> vektor: you need to build a custom freetype, enable hinting, copy it over the other libs, and use some developer tools tricks to change the lib so it looks like it was put there
09:30 < vektor> RangerRick: OK.  I made it up to the "developer tools tricks" part.  Which tricks are you referring to?
09:30 < RangerRick> `man install_name_tool`
09:30 < vektor> Interesting, thanks.
09:31 < vektor> I'm not familiar with the Darwin runtime linker at all. :/
09:31 < RangerRick> if you're gonna do it, replace the headers too, or bad things will happen
09:31 < RangerRick> freetype folks changed their API some between 2.1.4 and 2.1.5 or so
09:31 < vektor> I understand.
09:31 < vektor> You're kidding.
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09:32 < RangerRick> in a very minor way, but it breaks some stuff, we patch our freetype219 package to compensate
09:32 < RangerRick> I'd start from that patch if you're gonna build your own copy
09:32 < RangerRick> and just enable the hinter
09:32  * RangerRick thanks debian for that patch  :)
09:33 < vektor> So what's the use of the freetype2/freetype2-shlibs packages?
09:33 < RangerRick> they existed before a lot of this stuff happened
09:33 < RangerRick> and can't be switched out because of backwards-compatibility
09:33 < RangerRick> many things are slowly making the switch to depending on the freetype219 package specifically
09:33 < vektor> I guess they're also likely required if you're not using the xfree86/xorg packages from fink?
09:34 < RangerRick> there's very few things that use freetype that aren't X packages, but yeah
09:34 < vektor> But the freetype219 package doesn't enable the bytecode hinter, correct?
09:34 < RangerRick> right
09:34 < vektor> I'd strongly recommend enabling it, but if upstream specifically says "we're cool", then that's awkwawrd.
09:35 < RangerRick> it's patent-encumbered, and unclear whether we can enable it and distribute binaries (some other distros enabling it notwithstanding)
09:36 < RangerRick> on the other hand, it's apple's friggin' patent...  :)
09:36 < akh> Eh, just make it restrictive, like everything else where there's a question.
09:36 < vektor> I agree that this makes things awkward.
09:36 < RangerRick> akh: that would make much of the bindist break  :P
09:36 < vektor> However, I wish freetype was more honest about their autohinter.
09:36 < RangerRick> for apt-get I mean
09:37 < vektor> Automatic hint generation is a research topic, and any research paper you read on it will tell you that it's for generating hints which you will then manually tweak ;)
09:37 < akh> RangerRick: yeah, I guess--though I was thinking that there'd be a separate -hinting package.
09:37 < RangerRick> akh: ah yeah
09:38 < akh> At least it'd be drop-in compatible.
09:38 < RangerRick> yeah
09:39 < RangerRick> I think a freetype219-hinting package wasn't made because it's a pain in the ass making the things switch out right
09:39 < RangerRick> and the only reason we're using a newer-than-2.1.4 package in the first place was because of some specific requirements of pango and bugs in qt
09:40 < akh> Guess that's reason enough.
09:40 < vektor> This is all so sad and disappointing. :)
09:41 < RangerRick> working well with freetype is complicated
09:41 < RangerRick> moreso because of darwin's tricky dynamic loader, and X11 providing various versions of it
09:42 < pogma> x11 provides various versions of dyld? :-p
09:42 < vektor> Yes, I'm surprised the dynamic loader is so tricky.  It's like everything is rpath'ed.
09:42 < akh> Plus the upstream-engendered lack of back compatibility.
09:42 < vektor> What's a good Serif font then that people use?
09:42 < akh> pogma: wouldn't that be horrible.  ;-)
09:45 < pogma> when playing with dyld I used sed to make a mv executable that used a known working version of dyld (/usr/bin/dylg in this case) so I could copy back said good version if I screwed up
09:45 < pogma> it was kinda fun :)
09:45 < akh> Sounds like a good idea.
09:46 < akh> (/me wished I could do that with laboratory hardware.  :-\ )
09:49 < vektor> Can someone maybe post a screenshot of a web browser running under X?  I'd really like to see what fonts you guys use.
09:53 < RangerRick> I don't use a web browser under X  ;)
09:53 < vektor> :)
09:53  * RangerRick starts up konqueror
09:57 < RangerRick> http://ranger.befunk.com/misc/konqueror-3.4.1.png
09:57 < vektor> Interesting font.
09:57 < vektor> Can you try with a serif-liking site like cnn.com or slashdot.org ?
09:59 < RangerRick> ick, no AA
10:00 < vektor> No AA?
10:01 < RangerRick> not sure why
10:01 < vektor> Those fonts look AA in that screenshot.
10:01 < vektor> Can you post what you're seeing?
10:01 < RangerRick> no, I mean CNN
10:01 < RangerRick> uploading irgh tnow
10:01 < RangerRick> http://ranger.befunk.com/misc/konqueror-3.4.1-cnn.png
10:01 < vektor> OK, that's unexpected. :)
10:02 < RangerRick> yeah
10:02 < RangerRick> I appear to be missing a lot of fonts that used to work, but I don't know if it's because of apple's X11 or something else
10:02 < vektor> Lucida Grande 13 seems to be the default font for OS X.  Does that sound correcT?
10:03 < RangerRick> used to == 10.3, I've barely made things work nice in my new setup
10:03 < RangerRick> I have no idea
10:03 < vektor> I'm now changing my approach.  I will now try and use OS X fonts. :)
10:05 < vektor> Not working so well for me so far :0
10:06 -!- geewz [~gregreede@ppp122-142.static.internode.on.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
10:12  * akh gives up on attempting to test o.o.org until I get a bigger HD for temp space.
10:13 < akh> I just don't have the necessary 50 gigs free.
10:14 < vektor> RangerRick: If you're curious, here's my problem.  Compare these screenshots: http://vektor.ca/fonts/
10:14 < vektor> In one I have Safari viewing a webpage, and in the other it's with the molizard.
10:14 < RangerRick> oh, so you're not talking about X11 at all, that would have absolutely nothing to do with freetype
10:14 < RangerRick> nor do I have much knowledge of it  :)
10:14 < vektor> I am talking about X11.
10:14 < RangerRick> my screenshot was konqueror in X11 on OSX
10:15 < vektor> The second screenshot is fullscreen XDarwin.
10:15 < RangerRick> ok, I guess I just had the before and after confused  :)
10:15 < vektor> I'm trying to get the mozilla in fullscreen XDarwin to look as good as Safari.
10:15 < RangerRick> I've got nuthin'
10:16 < vektor> So, I've been trying to configure X the same as I do on my Linux box.
10:16 < vektor> This has proved a little difficult. :)
10:18 < jack-> vektor: which menu extensions are you running on the mac? ;)
10:25 < vektor> MenuMeters is what it's called.
10:40 < vektor> GTK+ only lists the "Regular" style for all of my fonts -- no Bold or Italics.
10:40 < vektor> Anyone have an idea of what might be wrong?
10:40 -!- dalibor [~mpiadmin@swspm1500.d1.mpi-sws.mpg.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
10:40 < vektor> Mozilla seems to have the same trouble, nothing can boldly go.
10:42 < vektor> Seems like it's a fontconfig issue...
10:52 < vektor> Or, it's just that whatever freetype or whatever can't read the Apple fonts.  It can only get the regular style from them.  If I use "Bitstream Vera Sans" or "Bitstream Vera Serif", then I can get the styles they provide.
10:52 < vektor> Anyone seen this before?
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11:01 < kapowaz> :(
11:01 < kapowaz> somebody tell chris01 sorry from me when he returns
11:01 < kapowaz> he was helping me try and get the stuff I wanted working, but I had no luck so I gave up
11:01 < kapowaz> if somebody could thank him on my behalf that'd be appreciated.
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11:04 < kapowaz> okay, before I disappear off the face of the finkosphere
11:04 < kapowaz> I removed my /sw tree
11:04 < kapowaz> but OS X won't let me install Apple X11
11:04 < newmanbe> That removes Fink!
11:05 < newmanbe> Because that is not where X11 is kept.
11:05 < newmanbe> It is in /usr/X11R6/
11:05 < kapowaz> okay
11:05 < newmanbe> And and /etc/ somwhere.
11:05 < kapowaz> yes, removing my Fink was the intention
11:05 < kapowaz> I may return to it at some point
11:05 < kapowaz> but not today
11:06 < kapowaz> so, the contents of /usr/X11R6 is installed by Fink?
11:06 < kapowaz> and thus, safe to delete?
11:06 -!- Lars [~Lars@38.Red-80-32-22.pooles.rima-tde.net] has joined #fink
11:06 < newmanbe> Unless you installed it from somewhere else.
11:06 < kapowaz> unless it's part of a default Tiger install, nope
11:06 < Lars> Could someone check if ncutil is available for x86 ? I need it to setup the network, so I may use fink
11:07 < newmanbe> Darwin/X86? Try asking in #opendarwin .
11:08 < Lars> is there a site where I may check for available packages ?
11:10 < kapowaz> yeah, one of these guys will tell you the URL
11:10 < RangerRick> Lars: available packages for darwin/x86?  fink has none
11:11 < RangerRick> there's been a little work in that direction, but not too much yet
11:11 < Lars> oh, I thought fink was usefull for x86 too :(
11:11 < kapowaz> so er... where else will Fink have installed X.org to?
11:11 < RangerRick> some of it might work
11:11 < kapowaz> the X11 installer is still saying newer software exists
11:11 < RangerRick> but we don't have anyone actively working on it yet, I think
11:12 < RangerRick> still need to get some x86 devel boxes
11:12 < RangerRick> kapowaz: did you download the x11 installer from apple.com?
11:12 < RangerRick> that one's for 10.3 I think
11:13 < kapowaz> ohh
11:14 < kapowaz> I did
11:14 < kapowaz> boo
11:14 < kapowaz> so there's no installer for 10.4 yet?
11:14 < RangerRick> for X11?
11:14 < RangerRick> it came on your tiger DVD
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11:15 < vektor> RangerRick: Do you happen to know about this font style thing?
11:16 < RangerRick> and if the 10.3 installer is complaining you have a newer one, you probably need to delete the /Library/Receipts/X11User.pkg or whatever file before you can install X11 again (from the Tiger CD, don't install the 10.3 one)
11:16 < RangerRick> vektor: nope, sorry
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11:22 < cirdan> !test
11:22 < Melian> No, cirdan, you're not online any more.
11:24 < cirdan> !aussiesmite $randnick
11:24 < Melian> $randnick: ((i wouldnt take a back hander for that bush pig bloody|cheerio|heh im going to the dunny to wank with my donger|why dont ya go spending all your doc on a town bike bloody hell|what the do-dar are you drinking|jeeeez mate who cut the dog in half? better check your bloody dacks) mate|hold on mate im going to the dunny...
11:24 < cirdan> grr
11:24 < cirdan> !aussiesmite me
11:24 < Melian> cirdan: ((i wouldnt take a back hander for that bush pig bloody|cheerio|heh im going to the dunny to wank with my donger|why dont ya go spending all your doc on a town bike bloody hell|what the do-dar are you drinking|jeeeez mate who cut the dog in half? better check your bloody dacks) mate|hold on mate im going to the dunny...
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11:28 < kapowaz> RangerRick: oh... better go take a look then :P
11:29 < cirdan> morning all
11:29 < newmanbe> 'ello!
11:30 < jtyler> hello!
11:36 -!- newmanbe [[U2FsdGVkX@343c5a82c6173c12.session.tor] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
11:36 < cirdan> aww
11:36 < cirdan> !canuksmite newmanbe
11:36  * Melian makes newmanbe listen to Celine Dion
11:36 < cirdan> !canuksmite me
11:36  * Melian makes cirdan listen to Rush
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11:46 < cirdan> !topicsmite Melian 
11:46 < Melian> <reply> And the wrath of /TOPIC descended with terrible fury upon Melian.  And all the people marveled, saying, Behold, we too should read the /TOPIC, lest we be stricken.  And all the people read the /TOPIC, and went away edified.
11:46 < cirdan> hm
11:53 < newmanbe_> cirdan: Didn't work that computers speakers were unplugged.
11:53 -!- newmanbe_ is now known as newmanbe
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11:54 < cirdan> !topicsmite newmanbe 
11:54 < Melian> And the wrath of /TOPIC descended with terrible fury upon newmanbe.  And all the people marveled, saying, Behold, we too should read the /TOPIC, lest we be stricken.  And all the people read the /TOPIC, and went away edified.
11:54 < cirdan> w00t.
12:00 < cirdan> wtf. i thought the gnome ssl lib thing was fixed :-(
12:00 < cirdan> !lart 10.4.2
12:00  * Melian cuts off 10.4.2's head with a halberd that could have been a little bit sharper
12:15 < cirdan> .
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12:17 < akh> mmm...new smites...
12:19 < cirdan> hehe
12:19 < newmanbe> !prasie teh smiter 
12:19 < newmanbe> !praise smiter
12:19  * Melian prostrates herself before smiter.  "Can I have your baby, smiter?"
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13:59 < kapowaz> boo
14:00 < kapowaz> if I want to create an arbitrary new user on OS X, how do I go about that?
14:00 < kapowaz> I take it OS X doesn't really use the contents of /etc/passwd
14:01 < newmanbe> Only in single user mode.
14:02 < kapowaz> as opposed to...?
14:02 < newmanbe> You could either use NetInfo Manager (Not Apple's recommended way) Or the Accounts preference pane.
14:02 < kapowaz> the fast switch mode?
14:02 < newmanbe> Multi-user mode.
14:02 < kapowaz> the one with the natty 3D rotate thing
14:02 < kapowaz> right?
14:02 < newmanbe> No.
14:02 < kapowaz> oh
14:03 < RangerRick> system preferences -> accounts
14:03 < RangerRick> click the "+" to add an account  :)
14:05 < kapowaz> I'd rather the subversion user wasn't listed there
14:06 < RangerRick> then do it in NetInfo
14:06 < newmanbe> If you are installing it from Fink, it might ad it for you.
14:10 < kapowaz> if I were then yes I imagine so :)
14:11 < vasi> i think there's a useradd tool floating around
14:13 < kapowaz> I couldn't see one
14:15 -!- dk0rr [~dk0r@cpe-24-194-171-176.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #fink
14:15 < RangerRick> "floating around" == "not in the default system"  ;)
14:16 -!- newmanbe [[U2FsdGVkX@c94f71600aabd464.session.tor] has quit ["This setback in computing brought to you by SCO Group."]
14:16 < kapowaz> floaters == eww
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14:27 < akh> mmmm...useraddd
14:27 < akh> (adds an extra d, too)
14:28 < cirdan> heh
14:28 < cirdan> userutils, yup
14:28 < cirdan> fink should depend on that and use that to add users
14:28 < cirdan> :-)
14:28 < akh> heh
14:28 < cirdan> serious
14:28 < cirdan> why recode everything
14:29 < cirdan> just improve what's existing
14:29 < akh> Would it allow packages to add and remove users as part of their preinst and postinst, respectively?
14:30 < akh> (end the "why do I have all these extra users" gripes)
14:30 < newmanbe> As da' bbraun has said, can't make not-suck out of suck.
14:31 < akh> Sure you can--you just lower the bar to where "suck" looks good.
14:39 < cirdan> heh
14:47 -!- Murr [~neeri@A17-202-20-71.apple.com] has joined #fink
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14:48 < newmanbe> Murr! emp!
14:49 < cirdan> http://ldx3.psfc.mit.edu/~hansen/koffice.pdf
14:49 < cirdan> akh: remember that? :-)
14:49 < vasi> akh, we have a plan for adding/removing users for packages
14:49 < akh> cirdan: yup
14:49 < vasi> unfortunately, not all of us have the SAME plan
14:50 < vasi> but we're working on that
14:50 < vasi> :-)
14:50 < Murr> newmanbe?
14:50 < cirdan> hehe
14:50  * newmanbe is saying hello people before Melian would get a chance to.
14:50 < cirdan> i don't remember what the green means though
14:50 < akh> vasi: Implement them all.  Two plans are better than one. ;-)
14:50 < vasi> heh
14:50 < akh> cirdan--I think they're alternatives
14:51 < cirdan> ah
14:51 < akh> -ssl vs not
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15:09 < vasi> dmacks, should we remove the build-as-nobody warning?
15:10 < dmacks> At least we should remove the delay.
15:10 < vasi> delay?
15:10 < dmacks> There's a sleep() after it.
15:10 < vasi> that's kinda silly
15:11 < dmacks> !lart whoever added it.
15:11  * Melian sends a legion of lawyers after whoever added it.'s head
15:11  * dmacks ducks
15:12 < vasi> also, what would you think of a 'fink builddeps foo' command, which installs all build depends of foo?
15:12 < dmacks> I think it's stable enough now...all the ways I can envision it causing "incorrect builds" (or whatever the warning says) would actually cause crashes (chown and things)
15:12  * vasi agrees
15:13 < dmacks> fink build --deps-only somepkg
15:13 < dmacks> --deps-only takes args "Depends" and/or "BuildDepends", defaults to both.
15:13 < vasi> i guess that could work too, i was just thinking of 'apt-get build-dep' :-)
15:14 < vasi> hmm, i think it should be a separate command 
15:14 < vasi> cuz what would it mean for remove? or update?
15:15 < dmacks> It would only be available forthe cmds where it makes sense ((re)install, build, update)
15:15 < vasi> i'm not clear on what it would do for update
15:16 < vasi> i guess the same as install?
15:17 < vasi> anyway i shouldn't be thinking about this now, gotta finish the things we're working on now
15:17 < dmacks> update already implies install (if the pkg isn't installed).
15:17 < dmacks> Right.
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15:17 < vasi> anything left for 0.24.8?
15:17 < dmacks> (see also, jfm'n'my on-and-off battle about whether reinstall should build if needed)
15:17 < vasi> er yeah, i have no opinion
15:18 < dmacks> There is a new validator check for Depends syntax. Backport it?
15:22 < vasi> guess so
15:22 < vasi> also the splitoff_required_fields and DFSG license make sense
15:23 < vasi> not sure if it's really worth it, i've been trying to assume that 0.25 will be released sometime in the not-incredibly-far-future
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15:24 < vasi> there's also the DYLD_LIBRARY_PATH check
15:24 < vasi> *shrug*
15:29 < vasi> dmacks, as you may have noticed i've started prepending 'private' functions with _, and doc'ing them with # blocks instead of POD
15:29 < vasi> is that an ok convention by you?
15:29 < akh> vasi: how about DYLD_FALLBACK_LIBRARY_PATH?
15:30 < vasi> akh, i don't think we check for that...not sure if we should?
15:30 < akh> Ah--was thinking of something else.
15:32 < dmacks> akh: FALLBACK is a base-files thing, not fink core.
15:33 < dmacks> (thuogh we should release the base-files that has it)
15:33 < cirdan> yup
15:34 < dmacks> I'm assuming 0.25 will come along soon and 0.24 will go to stable; but I'm not expecting 0.25 to go to stable anytime soon. So I'm trying to get 0.24.8 to be good and not missing critical (but small!) changes from 0.24.7, since it'll be with us for a while.
15:34  * akh is doing multiple things at once and is too lazy actually to scroll back for context.  ;_)
15:35 < dmacks> Hence I backported doc-fixes, for example.
15:36 < dmacks> Underscores for private is fine. I'm not sure I like some-funcs-get-#-comments/others-get-pod
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15:50 < dmacks> Thinking back to few-days-ago's sheep talk... http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/aplocal_story.asp?category=6420&slug=WA%20Abuse%20Investigation
15:50 < vladuz976> does anybody know a channel for mac?
15:52 < akh> dmacks:  /me wonders which 17 states _don't_ have such laws.
15:52 < akh> (not that I'm looking, of course )
15:52 < dmacks> vladuz976: There are many...what *about* mac?
15:52 < dmacks> akh: Of course not.
15:52 < dmacks> Whoop...meeting
15:53 -!- dmacks is now known as dmacks_away
15:53 < vladuz976> i've been updating since 10.3 and disk fills up. i don't know where all the space goes. doesn't seem like updating it seems as if it is adding stuff all the time
15:54 < akh> If it's a Fink problem try "fink cleanup"
15:54 < vladuz976> no, i just installed fink today
15:55 < vladuz976> have you ever tried runnning gnome on your mac
15:55 < akh> sure.
15:56 < vladuz976> so what do i install? gnome-session?
15:57 < vladuz976> i had X11 but deleted that. when i installed gnome-desktop i was hoping that it adds xfree86 as a dependency but didn't
15:58 < akh> bundle-gnome is probably the best bet.
15:58 < vladuz976> ok i'll try that
15:58 -!- htodd [htodd@i8u.org] has joined #fink
15:58 < akh> And if you just deleted X11.app you didn't actually remove the real "meat" of Apple's X11.
15:59 < akh> Which might explain why fink didn't give you the option to install xfree86 (it was doing its job)
16:00 < vladuz976> akh: how can i delete the real meat?
16:00 < vladuz976> same with other stuff i wanna get rid of
16:00 -!- dsias_ [~dsias@68-235-246-26.atlsfl.adelphia.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
16:00 < akh> For X11, run "sudo rm -rf /etc/X11 /usr/X11R6" in a terminal window.
16:00 < akh> That's all of the core stuff.
16:01 < akh> For everything else; that depends on where it's installed.
16:02 < vladuz976> first do i need to enable root?
16:02 < akh> That's what the 'sudo' is for.
16:02 < vladuz976> coz my password doesn't work for sudo
16:02 < vladuz976> that is what i thought
16:02 < akh> Ah.  You do need to do the 'rm' as root, yes.
16:03 < vladuz976> what i mean is that my login password is not being accepted for some readon
16:03 < vladuz976> reason
16:04 < akh> Odd--you're using an account with administrator privileges ?
16:04 < vladuz976> shoot yeah, that's it
16:04 < akh> That'd do it.
16:05 < vladuz976> hey i had fink installed on separat partiton and now formatted that partition, trying to install fink again from binary but, it says can't install coz there is a /sw  directory
16:05 < akh> You may have a /sw from earlier.
16:05 < vladuz976> i tried to cd into it
16:05 < vladuz976> but nothing
16:06 -!- Murr [~neeri@A17-202-20-71.apple.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
16:06 < akh> hmm...'cd /sw' on your primary partition?
16:06 < akh> That gives nothing?
16:07 < vladuz976> no
16:07 -!- Murr [~neeri@A17-202-20-71.apple.com] has joined #fink
16:07 < vladuz976> hey does updatedb not work on mac?
16:07 < vladuz976> i tried that right now to locate stuff
16:08 < akh> I've never figured out how to turn it on--I just installed the fink fileutils package instead.
16:09 < vladuz976> that's not what i mean. i am trying to find out where like let's say m$office installed itself into so i can clear some diskspace
16:09 < vladuz976> also trying to find out why i get the error that /sw exists when it doesn't
16:09 < akh> So there's no /sw on your _primary_ partition? 
16:10 -!- cirdan [~chris@pcp04356153pcs.glstrt01.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
16:10 < vladuz976> akh: no
16:10 -!- Melian [~blootbot@pcp04356153pcs.glstrt01.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
16:10 < vladuz976> weird no?
16:10 < akh> Very.
16:10 < vladuz976> how is the installer checking for that directory?
16:11 < vladuz976> maybe there is someting left from the previous installation that tells it about the dir
16:11 < akh> I'm not sure--I always assumed it ran a script to do so.
16:11 < vladuz976> yeah but whhat does the script do?
16:13 < akh> I'd always assumed it'd run a command like 'test -d'
16:14 < vladuz976> ok is there any mac channels tha i can consult?
16:15 < akh> I'm not sure--never had to look around.
16:15 < vladuz976> just so weird that i can't find the /sw
16:16 < akh> Yeah
16:16 < vladuz976> you know what
16:17 < vladuz976> i couldn't cd into it but i did a rm -rf /sw
16:17 < vladuz976> and after that it worked
16:17 < vladuz976> is that funny or what
16:17 < akh> Interesting.
16:17 -!- Albie [~ambs@bl6-38-192.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #fink
16:17 < akh> It might have had the permissions messed up or something wild like that.
16:18 < vladuz976> maybe
16:18 < akh> As long as it works now.
16:18 < vladuz976> so with fink you get what? fink, apt-get
16:18 < vladuz976> both?
16:18 < akh> yup
16:19 < vladuz976> installation is smooth
16:19 < vladuz976> what differnce does it make when i use apt-get
16:19 < akh> It always installs from precompiled binaries.  "fink install" generally installs from source.
16:20 < vladuz976> oh ok
16:20 < vladuz976> hey i did get an error druing install
16:20 < vladuz976> writing some file for fink environment setup
16:20 -!- dmacks_away is now known as dmacks
16:20 < vladuz976> then it couldn't write it
16:20 < vladuz976> for some reason
16:21 < dmacks> (if you use the binary installer to put fink on another volume, it creates a /sw link from the main volume; if the target of that link goes away you cannot "cd" into it (since it's a link to a non-existent dir) but it's still true that "/sw exists")
16:22 < akh> dmacks:  Ah
16:22  * akh lost track since I'm doing other stuff too.
16:23 < akh> vladuz976:  The message might be that you already had a startup file setup so that Fink didn't mess with it.
16:23 < vladuz976> ok that explains that
16:23 < vladuz976> ok so now best thing to do is a selfupdate ?
16:23 < akh> If you have XCode installed, yes.
16:24 < vladuz976> yeah i got that
16:26 < vladuz976> oh wow, i type fink and it gives command not found
16:26 < akh> Ah--then I might have been wrong about the nature of the installer error.
16:26 < akh> It's easy to fix, though.
16:26 < vladuz976> how
16:26 < akh> Which shell are you using?
16:27 < vladuz976> bash
16:28 < akh> OK.  Try "echo . /sw/bin/init.sh >> ~.profile"
16:28 < akh> Then start a new terminal window.
16:29 < vladuz976> what are the things before and after .profile?
16:29 < vladuz976> quotation?
16:29 < akh> Leave out the quote marks
16:30 < akh> and it's a typo
16:30 < akh> echo . /sw/bin/init.sh >> ~/.profile
16:30 < akh> The above is what you want--sorry about that
16:30 < vladuz976> i get permission denied
16:30 < vladuz976> oh its for home
16:30 < vladuz976> got it
16:30 < akh> Right
16:30 < vladuz976> my font in this terminal (irssi) is kinda smal
16:31 < akh> Makes sense--I _tried_ to write down the command correctly to paste, but...
16:31 < vladuz976> sorry i am on the linux box with irc
16:31 < vladuz976> mac is the laptop
16:31 < akh> ah
16:31 < vladuz976> but still get permission denied
16:32 < vladuz976> can i just do more .profile?
16:32 < akh> yes
16:32 < vladuz976> to read it
16:32 < vladuz976> ok coz that works
16:32 < akh> Right--there's a file, but it wasn't owned by you so the installer didn't like it.
16:33 < akh> And what's in it?
16:33 < vladuz976> ok what i got in there is just "test -r /sw/bin/init.sh && . /sw/bin/init.sh
16:33 < vladuz976> and that twice
16:33 < newmanbe> Muahahaha!
16:33 < newmanbe> <- Expanding influence throughout the land's of freenode and OFTC.
16:35 < akh> vladuz976: OK--that should be fine.
16:35 < akh> so run
16:35 < vladuz976> run what?
16:35 < akh> sudo chown <your user name> .profile
16:35 < vladuz976> what's that do
16:36 < newmanbe> Changes the owner for the file.
16:36 < vladuz976> oh change owenr
16:36 < vladuz976> ok
16:36 < newmanbe> CHange OWNer
16:36 < vladuz976> and then
16:36 < akh> Try opening a new terminal
16:36 < akh> And run fink again.
16:36 < vladuz976> cool
16:37 < dmacks> (that reminds me...gotta fix the symlink tests in the binary installer...*grr*...hate Hate HATE the installer)
16:37 < vladuz976> for selfupdate what is the difference between those choices
16:37 < vladuz976> if i pick cvs what diff for futre use
16:37 < vladuz976> of fink
16:37 < newmanbe> rsync
16:38 < vladuz976> y
16:38 < dmacks> It's explained in FAQ 3.2
16:38 < akh> !lilosmite the installer
16:38 < akh> oops--no Melian
16:39 < vladuz976> so pick rsync then?
16:39 < akh> Yeah
16:39 < dmacks> Use rsync unless you know why you want to use cvs.
16:39 < vladuz976> to get newest stuff
16:39 < vladuz976> but then maybe not stable huh
16:40 < vladuz976> rsync gives me what?
16:40 < dmacks> You didn't read the faq, huh?
16:40 < akh> Not quite--there's only a delay of a few hours between cvs and rsync.
16:40 < dmacks> fink.sf.net/faq
16:40 < akh> (the packages being available)
16:41 < vladuz976> damn, so less with rsync?
16:41 < newmanbe> With CVS you download more stuff than you need to have Fink work.
16:41 < vladuz976> oh ok
16:42 < newmanbe> It downloads every file in the 10.2 10.2-gcc3.3 10.3 and 10.4-transitional.
16:42 < vladuz976> shoooot
16:42 < vladuz976> too much
16:42 < vladuz976> i guess
16:42 < akh> And the cvs server is less reliable (usually) than the rsync mirrors.
16:42 < vladuz976> hey but one more time, to get gnome working, can i do apt-get install bundle-gnome
16:42 < newmanbe> Because the CVS server is hosted by SourceForge.net.
16:42 < newmanbe> bundle-gnome-ssl
16:42 < dmacks> At any given time, cvs and/or rsync may lag by up to a few hours. Which (if either) is lagged (and by how much) is unpredictable.
16:43 < akh> newmanbe: no such package
16:43 < vladuz976> what is ssl?
16:43 < newmanbe> No such package?
16:43 < newmanbe> Crypto
16:44 < akh> newmanbe: "fink list" it for yourself
16:44 < vladuz976> damn i think its stuck
16:44  * dmacks wonders if we need a faq about package-naming conventions.
16:44 < vladuz976> for speed is says 0
16:44 < akh> vladuz976: You can do it if you're on Panther but not Tiger.
16:44 < akh> (apt-get bundle-gnome)
16:44 < vladuz976> got tiger
16:45 < akh> Then you'll have to install it from the unstable tree.
16:45 < vladuz976> what gnome?
16:45 < akh> 2.6
16:45 < akh> Fink's latest
16:45 < vladuz976> that's it
16:45 < vladuz976> old
16:45 < akh> Yup.
16:46 < vladuz976> on panther i would have gotten a newer one?
16:46 < akh> Nope-exact same version.
16:46 < akh> It just wasn't ready to be made a binary on Tiger.
16:46 < vladuz976> so can i actually set it up so it loads gdm and then log into gnome?
16:47 < vladuz976> or i gotta go from terminal startx and then lauch gnome?
16:47 < akh> I've never actually gotten gdm to work--I've used kdm, though.
16:48 < vladuz976> ok, so how did that work
16:48 < akh> I believe I ran it from a terminal after starting X11--I didn't like it enough to keep at it.
16:49 < vladuz976> so are you using gnome or kde now?
16:50 < akh> Right now, neither--I usually run KDE if I want a desktop rather than just a single X11 application.
16:51 < newmanbe> dmacks: Part of that exists somewhere in Fink's web site.
16:52 < vladuz976> wow fink is pretty damn slow, updating itself
16:52 < dmacks> I figured it does. I just want one place to point 'cuz I'm tired of explaining -nox and -ssl differences, and "why can't I find foo-pm" ("because you need -pmXXX for your perlX.X.X)
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16:53 < ugly> I'm a little confused.  Is gcc-3.3 installable from fink or must it be installed from Xcode?
16:53 < dmacks> The latter usually.
16:53 < ugly> ok
16:54 < dmacks> vladuz976: We'd be happy to hear any suggestions for improving fink's speed.
16:54 < vladuz976> dmacks: i would if i knew how. but i changed the mirror and now it works fine
16:54 < dmacks> Or reports of particular bottlenecks where it seems to be doing un-necessary work.
16:54 < akh> dmacks:  0.24.99 is much faster.
16:55 -!- dk0rr [~dk0r@cpe-24-194-171-176.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #fink
16:55 < akh> After the first index, anyway.
16:55 < ugly> wow, you guys ported cdparanoia?
16:55 < dmacks> akh: Yup. I have no idea whether "fink is slow" means indexing, downloading, compiling, installing, starting kde, or whatever else, though:)
16:55 < akh> ugly: yup
16:56 < vladuz976> dmacks: i meant downloading
16:56 < dmacks> ugly: It appears to have compiled without much tweaking at all.
16:57 < dmacks> vladuz976: Now you know first-hand one reason why rsync is better: mirror choices.
16:58  * dmacks has a crappy dialup...mirrors don't matter to me:(
16:58 -!- regeya [~shane@adsl-sp3-cdale176.micgi.com] has left #fink ["Leaving"]
16:59 < akh> No Melian to give !comfort...
16:59 < dk0rr> boy fink is nice
16:59 < dk0rr> i dont like anyone of the desktop environments out there
17:00 < dk0rr> they should make an OSXde
17:00 < dk0rr> kinda like the opposite of what fink is.
17:00 < akh> The Finder?
17:00 -!- akh [~akhansen@ldx3.psfc.mit.edu] has quit []
17:00 < dk0rr> no
17:00 < dk0rr> just the layout
17:01 < dk0rr> gnome and kde both suck in comparison 
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17:01 -!- newmanbe [~newmanbe@e5e5f7f5a3d68a60.session.tor] has joined #fink
17:02 < newmanbe> Fink commit!
17:02 < newmanbe> driftkop...
17:03 -!- vasi [~vasi@modemcable133.147-70-69.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #fink
17:03 < newmanbe> vasi!
17:03 < newmanbe> No Melian here to greet you!
17:03 < newmanbe> Yay!
17:03 < vasi> newmanbe!
17:04 < vasi> dammit, i can't remember half the reasons for why i lock when during indexing
17:05 < vladuz976> how come it can't fink bundle-kde?
17:05 < newmanbe> I have no idea.
17:05 < newmanbe> fink install bundle-kde-ssl
17:06 < vladuz976> ok i'll try
17:06 < vladuz976> what is ssl?
17:06 < newmanbe> Crypto.
17:07 < newmanbe> Didn't you ask that before?
17:07 < vladuz976> what is Crypto
17:07 < newmanbe> Encryption.
17:07 < vladuz976> but actually id doesn't find that either
17:07 < vladuz976> with -sll
17:07 < vladuz976> ssl
17:09 < newmanbe> Are you using Mac OS X 10.4?
17:09 < vladuz976> yes
17:09 -!- dk0rr [~dk0r@cpe-24-194-171-176.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit []
17:14 < dmacks> (maybe naming conventions discussion should be in pkging manual...at least the -pmXXX is essentially policy at this time, and that's where we talk about how to name a package anyway)
17:14 < dmacks> For Tiger, both bundle-kde and bundle-kde-ssl are only available in unstable.
17:15 < vladuz976> so how do i get that
17:15 < newmanbe> Read the docs.
17:15 < newmanbe> It's probably in http://www.finkproject.org/faq/ .
17:16 < dmacks> FAQ 5.8, in particular.
17:16 < dmacks> (if melian weren't dead, she'd've told you that:(
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17:23 -!- dmacks is now known as dmacks_away
17:24 -!- Lawjoskar is now known as LawjoskarAway
17:30 < ugly> does OS X come with GNU's coreutils or FreeBSD's versions?
17:31 < ugly> gonna run a script that uses GNU-specific options/behavior of date, awk, and sed
17:31 < newmanbe> I believe FreeBSD.
17:31 < ugly> heh damn
17:31 -!- ambs_ [~ambs@bl5-163-131.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #fink
17:31 < ugly> no one has packaged coreutils
17:32 < newmanbe> It apparently has problems on Darwin.
17:32 < ugly> damn heh
17:35 < ugly> hmm gawk ported - 1 out of 3 at least :P
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17:38 -!- ambs_ is now known as Albie
17:40 < newmanbe> Hmm, finally some GNOME commits.
17:40 < newmanbe> KDE has had a lot today.
17:43 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
17:47  * RangerAway has coreutils packaged in his experimental tree
17:48 < RangerAway> it even seems to work, but it had subtle problems before and I don't trust it enough to actually release it  =D
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18:29 < ugly> why would 'sudo' deny a user's password?
18:29 < ugly> this user is the only user on the system
18:29 < ugly> it has to have admin privs then, doesn't it?
18:30 < htodd> I forget, does console.app log the actual error message/
18:30 < htodd> ?
18:31 < htodd> it might tell you more about why
18:32 < ugly> you mean, send the error msg to STDOUT or?
18:33 < ugly> out/error - whatever
18:33 < ugly> or log to an actual file?
18:34 < htodd> console.app
18:34 < htodd> applications -> utilities -> console
18:34 < ugly> oh sorry
18:34 < ugly> was thinking of terminal.app
18:43 -!- Jason-X [~jason-x@user-176.lns4-c10.dsl.pol.co.uk] has joined #fink
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18:57 < cirdan> or just tail -f /var/log/system.log
18:57 < ugly> had the guy I'm helping just enable the root user
19:09 < ugly> is there any other way to get gcc, etc. than Xcode?  apple's servers are unbelievably slow
19:09 < ugly> 30kb/s max right now
19:11 < ugly> gcc-3.3, that is
19:11 < cirdan> no
19:11 < cirdan> you mist install xcode
19:11 < cirdan> must
19:12 < cirdan> xcode 2.0 is on the tiger dvd
19:12 < ugly> hmm
19:12 < cirdan> but xcode 2.1 is a little better
19:39 -!- MacinMan [~tron@163.101.207.68.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #Fink
19:40 < MacinMan> fink is still self contained under tiger correct? so deleting /sw is all that needs to be done to delete it right?
19:57 < cirdan> except for x11
19:57 < cirdan> yes
19:58 < MacinMan> ok
19:58 < cirdan> hmm
19:58 < MacinMan> i was having issues with the gnome package
19:58 < cirdan> anyone hear in the NE that surfs? :-)
19:58 < MacinMan> i installed bundle-gnome under tiger
19:58 < MacinMan> and it wouldn't run
19:58 < MacinMan> it compiled though
19:59 < MacinMan> something about libcrypto and libssl
19:59 < MacinMan> something it expected in the libs wasn't found
20:01 < MacinMan> is xcode 2.1 suitable for fink to work?
20:22 -!- dmacks_away is now known as dmacks
20:24 < cirdan> MacinMan: thats a known problem with a known fix
20:24 < cirdan> it's a os x bug
20:25 < Jerub> how do I install a CVS version of fink?
20:26 < cirdan> what do you need from cvs?
20:27 < Jerub> ah, nevermind, fink selfupdate-cvs
20:27 < cirdan> ah
20:27 < cirdan> ok
20:27 < Jerub> I thought I'd have to check it out manually.
20:27 < cirdan> :-)
20:27 < cirdan> might as well use rsync though
20:27 < Jerub> cirdan: I'm actually trying to set up regression testing of fink packages.
20:27 < cirdan> it's faster
20:27 < Jerub> does rsync get the latest version?
20:27 < cirdan> cvs of the fink program is in cvs
20:28 < cirdan> released versions are different from HEAD
20:28 < Jerub> oh, how do I install HEAD instead?
20:28 < cirdan> fink.sf.net
20:28 < cirdan> read the cvs docs
20:28 < cirdan> :-)
20:29 < Jerub> http://fink.sourceforge.net/doc/cvsaccess/index.php?phpLang=en <- not this?
20:31 < Jerub> does fink selfupdate-cvs install HEAD or a release?
20:31 < Jerub> (I can't tell, it scrolled past too fast)
20:31 < dmacks> There is no way except manual CVS checkout to get the CVS versions of fink itself.
20:32 < dmacks> selfupdate gets releases; selfupdate-cvs uses cvs as a protocol to access the releases.
20:32 < Jerub> dmacks: oh, thanks :)
20:33 < Jerub> cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anonymous@cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/fink co fink ; <- is that the right module?
20:33 < dmacks> Looks reasonable.
20:33 -!- newmanbe [~newmanbe@a3aef39e3a7b608f.session.tor] has joined #fink
20:33 < dmacks> Check that you a perlmod/ subdirectory.
20:33 < dmacks> *get
20:34 < Jerub> yeah, that's here.
20:35 -!- Lars [~Lars@38.Red-80-32-22.pooles.rima-tde.net] has joined #fink
20:35 -!- akh [~akhansen@68-118-244-23.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #fink
20:35 < dmacks> ./inject.pl should get you a new fink.
20:37 < Jerub> dmacks: fyi, just for kicks i'm attempting to set up regression testing of the fink packages. it'll the limits of buildbot :)
20:37 < dmacks> Neato!
20:37 < akh> w00t!
20:37 < dmacks> akh: Someone else has the same fltk* vs oo.o problem as you:)
20:37 < akh> heh
20:37 < Jerub> oo.o scares me.
20:38 < akh> deja etendue
20:38 < Jerub> I was laying awake last night thinking "buildbotting fink packages can't be too bad, there's only a thousand of them"
20:38 < Jerub> "oh shit, there's oo.o in there!"
20:38 -!- Feanor [~astrange@feanor.developer.opendarwin] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20:38 < akh> And there's nearly 5000 according to my "fink list"
20:39 < dmacks> By the time you consider how much oo.o duplicates existing pkgs, there's likely to be an extra 1000 of them.
20:39 -!- Feanor [~astrange@mp1-249-240.dialup.emory.edu] has joined #fink
20:39 < akh> heh
20:39 < Jerub> akh: double damn.
20:39 < Jerub> but how many source packages?
20:39 < akh> I'm not sure how the count works.
20:41 < Jerub> c'est la vie.
20:44 < akh> I'd bet it counts all the splitoffs and variants separately.
20:45  * Jerub smiles nicely.
20:45  * akh waits for dmacks to correct me.
20:48 < Jerub> oh, hey, found warners buildbot paper
20:48 < Jerub> http://python.fyxm.net/pycon/papers/buildbot/buildbot.html <- this is probably a clearer explanation of what buildbot actually i
20:48 -!- MacinMan [~tron@163.101.207.68.cfl.res.rr.com] has left #Fink []
20:49 < akh> cool
20:50 < akh> Sounds like information RangerAway could use in the quest to get KDE 3.4.1 to stable.
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20:54 < Jerub> fink list|cut -f2 -d\t is doomed to failure, what's a more robust way of getting a list of all the package names?
20:54 < dmacks> akh: You're right. By the time the indexer finishes indexing, every splitoff and variant is a full-fledged package.
20:55 < akh> dmacks: Kind of thought so.
20:55 < Jerub> oooh!
20:55 < Jerub> I could split this up by maintainer.
20:55 < Jerub> ;)
20:55 < Jerub> oh cool, fink list -t
20:56 < dmacks> Variants pretty much lose all trace of the fact that they are actually a variant of some template pkg; splitoff/main pkgs have pointers to each other, but that's all.
20:58 -!- Lars [~Lars@38.Red-80-32-22.pooles.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
20:58 < akh> Yeah--if one compares the raw .info file with the output of fink --dumpinfo, this comes out.
20:58 < dmacks> Jerub: Yeah, in a pipeline (or with -t), you get tab-delimited). Or you could set a *huge* -w and cut by column.
20:58 < akh> mmm...gimp-2.2.8
20:59 < akh> from binaries
20:59 < akh> (thought I'd rub it it)
21:00 < dmacks> (I guess we should document somewhere that -t is default in pipelines)
21:00 < akh> probably
21:00 < Jerub> hmm. install.sh doesn't work
21:00 < Jerub> sorry, I'm asking heaps of questions.
21:01 < Jerub> I'm trying to do something along the lines of "install fink in an arbitary directory, then do a $ARBDIR/fink install <somepackage>
21:01 < akh> Use bootstrap.sh $ARBDIR
21:01 < akh> ./boostrap.sh $ARBDIR
21:01 < akh> damn
21:01 < Jerub> thanks :)
21:02 < Jerub> oh, that's another problem.
21:02 < Jerub> is there a way to *not* run fink as root?
21:02 < dmacks> No.
21:02 < Jerub> probably because of suid binaries and root ownership requirement of some packages, right?
21:03 < dmacks> There are ways to have the build process run as not-root, but even that involves switching to root and then switching to "nobody"
21:03 < dmacks> Right. And given that root *could* install the binaries, we don't want Joe User creating those binaries.
21:03 < Jerub> oh, what if the build process ran as nobody to begin with?
21:03 < Jerub> this is for testing purposes, I just don't want the build user needing root.
21:04 < dmacks> No easy way around it. It's pretty risky saying "here root, install this arbitrary thing" no?
21:04 < dmacks> (dpkg itself doesn't really work without being root)
21:05 < Jerub> yeah, it's a bugger.
21:05 < Jerub> maybe I could chroot this.
21:06 < dmacks> It was a pain just to implement --build-as-nobody
21:06 < dmacks> bbiam
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21:06 < Jerub> oh, heck, I don't need to install, just build.
21:06 < Jerub> I'll use the nobody trick.
21:06 < cirdan> being root/fakeroot is needed for building
21:06 < akh> Do we have fakeroot?
21:07 < cirdan> no
21:07 < Jerub> fakeroot isn't a package
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21:07 < cirdan> fakeroot doesn't fully exist :-)
21:07 < cirdan> but lots of ppl wish it did
21:07 < cirdan> actuaclly dpkg could be forces to install everything as a user
21:07 < cirdan> but everything would be owned as the user
21:08 < cirdan> and builds would still need to be done as root
21:09 < dmacks> --build-as-nobody is as safe we have at this time.
21:09 < dmacks> *grr* new server doesn't have #fink
21:10 < akh> The freenode test thing?
21:10 < cirdan> ?
21:10 < dmacks> akh: Yeah.
21:10 < akh> It's a plot!
21:10 < akh> They can't handle the truth!
21:10 < akh> (or something)
21:10 < dmacks> No, that horrid dotty pdf you linked was a plot.
21:11 < akh> heh
21:11 < akh> That it was
21:11 < cirdan> haha
21:11 < akh> Wonder what the oo.o graph looks like?
21:11 < cirdan> it's gotta inclde the buildconflicts :-)
21:11 < akh> Heh
21:11 < dmacks> Yeah...no deps...because it builds them all itself.
21:12 < cirdan> hehe
21:12 < cirdan> !seen baba
21:12 < cirdan> !seen baba^
21:12  * cirdan wonders where melian went
21:12 < akh> dmacks: That's nice and selfcontained, anyway.
21:12 < dmacks> akh (or anyone else): what channel did lilo keep mentioning in his msgs?
21:13 < cirdan>           getting to the testnet, please stop by #freenode-testing here on the
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21:13 < cirdan> Bug reports on
21:13 < cirdan>           #hyperion or to bugs@freenode.net .... thank you for coming, and
21:13 < akh> !wb Melian
21:13 < Melian> Welcome back Melian, o lonely traveller amongst the TCP/IP packets of chaos.
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21:29 < dmacks> akh: thx
21:30 < akh> for what?
21:30 < cirdan> dunno
21:30 < dmacks> Aw crap. s/akh/cirdan
21:30 < akh> heh
21:30 < dmacks>  /
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21:35 < cirdan> for what?
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21:38 < dmacks> cirdan: For reposting lilo's msg.
21:39 < cirdan> o
21:39 < cirdan> np
21:41 < dmacks> Next person who bitches about our mess of parallel but disjoin 10.x dists and stable/unstable trees, I'm gonna point to this freenode mess:)
21:42 < cirdan> heh
21:42 < cirdan> well, bbl all
21:44 < akh> What's up with all the trees?
21:45 < dmacks> akh: Compared to this freenode mess (/me points) that's an insignificant problem.
21:45 < dmacks> "evil is not a party line problem; its a congressional whore problem, spanning both parties"
21:45 < dmacks> [from /.]
21:46 < akh> heh
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21:49 < zizban> dmacks: what's up with that mess of parallel but disjoin 10.x dists and stable/unstable trees?
21:50 < dmacks> zizban: Compared to this mess (/me points at akh) that's an insignificant problem.
21:50 < zizban> heh :)
21:52 < akh> haha
21:53 < akh> They aren't quite disjoint, either--there's significant intersection.
21:55 < dmacks> Two trees diverged in a yellow cvs-server, and I--I took the one less tested-by, and that has made all the difference.
21:55 < zizban> hey, I was just quoting dmacks
21:56 < zizban> I felt a funeral in my brain, once
21:59  * akh is having a wake in mine.
22:02 < akh> (stereotypical Irish style, that is)
22:06 < akh> And now, time to dance with the devil.
22:07 < zizban> heh
22:07 < akh> i.e. try to build openoffice.org
22:07 < akh> Got an 80 gig partition on my firewire drive ready to go.
22:08 < akh> symbolic link set
22:09 < zizban> why? you can get it prebuilt
22:09 < akh> <sanctimonious>It's for the good of the project</sanctimonious>
22:10 < akh> It's to try to find all of the build conflicts so that we can actually have it in the bindist (which I don't think we can, come to think of it, because it's got crypto stuff)
22:10 < zizban> ah, well, go for oh mister i love self abuse man
22:10 < zizban> oh I see
22:11 < akh> Now it's because I haven't been able to build it, and I'm personally offended by that.
22:11 < akh> arrr.
22:11  * akh stomps around on my peg leg
22:11 < zizban> OH
22:11 -!- akh is now known as ahab
22:11 < zizban> heh
22:11 < ahab> Thar she blows!
22:11 < dmacks> oo.o hates each and every one of us personally and individually.
22:11 -!- ahab is now known as akh
22:11 < akh> Yeah
22:12 < zizban> wow, that is personal
22:12 < dmacks> "openoffice.org 2: this time, it's personal"
22:12 < akh> Like Ranger*'s conspiracy to keep KDE from the masses.
22:13 < zizban> ya
22:13 < akh> (vasi got an email suggesting this)
22:13 < zizban> heh
22:14 < zizban> build the beta of OO.o 2
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22:19  * dmacks just mailed todai about the oo.o mozilla mess.
22:20 < dmacks> Hush, akh...how the hell is he s'posed to run a good conspiracy if you keep telling everyone about it in an open channel.
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22:38 < dmacks> pm
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--- Log closed Sat Jul 16 00:00:38 2005