--- Log opened Wed Jul 20 00:00:35 2005
--- Day changed Wed Jul 20 2005
00:00 < vasi> true!
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00:01 < dmacks> The Date::* modules are good for all kinds of sophistimacated date processing.
00:01 < vasi> yeah, but i'm not about to pull in all that junk for findutils
00:07 < dmacks> Right.
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00:30 < dmacks> *gah* libtool!
00:32 < pogma> *gah* x11 crashed and I had 42 xterms open
00:32 < dmacks> d'oh:(
00:33 < pogma> at least they all were running screen on the remote ends
00:36 < dmacks> pogma: Actual libtool question (not just a bitching-session): do you know what version ltmain.sh (if any) has fixed the problem with the linker seeing the wrong libJPEG?
00:43 < pogma> 1.5.16 and later
00:43 < pogma> (I hope)
00:44  * pogma has case-sensitive HFS
00:44 < dmacks> Okay. I noticed while updating packages that sometimes the "standard patch" for that situation no longer applied, wondered how to distinguish "no longer needed" from "back to the drawing board for a new patch"
00:45 < pogma> anywhere it does not apply is probabyl fixed
00:45 < dmacks> cool
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01:33 < happy_broccoli> is there strace for osx
01:33 < msachs> happy_broccoli: There's ktrace, which is kind of similar.
01:33 < msachs> Shark also has a pretty useful system call trace function, as of the latest version.
01:34 < dmacks> Rosetta is a good resource for finding "does OS X have some-utility-I've-used-on-some-other-Unix"
01:34 < happy_broccoli> msachs: comes with os ?
01:35 < msachs> dmacks: Rosetta the PPC->Intel thing, or a different Rosetta?
01:35 < dmacks> rosetta?
01:35 < dmacks> !rosetta
01:35 < Melian> hmm... rosetta is a comparison of commands on various flavors of unix at http://bhami.com/rosetta.html
01:35 < msachs> happy_broccoli: ktrace comes with the OS, Shark is part of the CHUD Tools, which are part of Xcode.
01:41 < dmacks> vasi: If I have a set of functions that all have a common documentation block but then a few specific details, should I do a single =item with an intro then a sublist =over/=item for each function? Or just make each a top-level =item and cut'n'paste the common doc paragraph?
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02:49 < vasi> dmacks, depends how big a "set" is
02:49 < vasi> if it's really big, make a whole new section
02:50 < vasi> if it's really small, make separate blocks
02:50 < vasi> somewhere in the middle, well that's just hard to choose
02:51 < dmacks> I'm overhauling cleanup, gonna have separate cleanup_srcs cleanup_debs cleanup_buildlocks.
02:51 < vasi> cool
02:52 < vasi> that's probably big enough for a section
02:52 < vasi> so do a =head2 CLEANUP
02:52 < vasi> document the general idea
02:53 < vasi> and then a separate smaller per-function block for their idiosyncrasies i guess
02:53 < dmacks> Hrm, I guess I could do it that way too.
02:53 < vasi> seems cleaner than a list
02:53 < vasi> if they're short docs, you don't have to split them up so they're next to the function they belong to
02:56 < dmacks> Each has a sentence or two. While this is a work-in-progress, only some understand dryrun option, srcs has a special option, only some are implemented at all.
02:57 < lisppaste> dmacks pasted "multilevel list" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/10052
02:58 < dmacks> (we're already in a =head2...how much head can we get?)
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03:07 < vasi> heh
03:08 < vasi> i'm sure any way you do the pod will be fine in the end
03:09 < dmacks> No! We must completely optimize the docs now, before I even start to implement a half-assed coding attempt!
03:10  * dmacks notices that there's plenty of scary auto-LART opportunity in the current code.
03:12 < vasi> howzat?
03:12 < dmacks> It appears to look for files in one directory, then delete them from another.
03:12 < vasi> (btw, it's kinda too bad how slow cleanup is in HEAD....it's one of the only things left that needs a complete DB load)
03:12 < vasi> ack!!
03:13 < dmacks> It would take *very* rare filesystem arrangement and fink.conf to do any real damage I think.
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03:18 < vasi> wow i've got a streak going
03:19 < vasi> 4th time in a row i've made a serious change to a fink module and 'make test' has passed right away
03:19 < vasi> won't last long :-)
03:19 < dmacks> Sweet.
03:24 < vasi> Information about 4792 packages read in 3 seconds.
03:24 < vasi> :-)
03:28 < dmacks> Is there any standard syntax for "iterate over the values resulting from a function applied to a list"?
03:29 < dmacks> foreach (@list) {my $value=&func($_); [do stuff with $value, don't care about $_] }
03:29 < vasi> foreach my $item (map { &func($_) } @list)
03:29 < dmacks> seems clunky...silly temp variable.
03:29 < vasi> no?
03:30 < dmacks> map appears to pre-allocate a new array the size of @list. Pretty bad for large @list
03:31 < vasi> python solves that kind of thing well
03:32  * dmacks is trying to avoid allocating a list sizeof(&list_packages)
03:32 < vasi> i guess you could do 'while (my $item = &func(shift @list))'
03:32 < vasi> as long as you don't mind destroying the list
03:33 < vasi> er, and as long as func deals with undefined values
03:34 < dmacks> Okay, I'll not pre-optimize this.
03:35 < vasi> good idea
03:35 < vasi> do a DProf or SmallProf run after if it's too slow
03:36 < vasi> (probably the real reason anything in cleanup is slow is because of the cost of loading the entire PDB)
03:36 < dmacks> s/^/Wait for someone else /
03:36 < vasi> (but there's not much i can do about that)
03:38 < vasi> woohoo, more caching and super-fast fink loading
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06:48 < cirdan> HA
06:48 < cirdan> http://moon.google.com
06:49 < cirdan> zoom all the way in
06:55 < dmalloc> yet anotehr evil google world domination site
06:55  * dmalloc goes to block it on the proxy for all :P
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09:02 < newmanbe> Aw comeone, no on is in #fink on the testnet?
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09:14 -!- You're now known as RangerRick
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09:51  * akh really needs to stop breaking stuff...
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10:01 < newmanbe> !command akh to stop breaking stuff
10:01 < newmanbe> ;)
10:03 < akh> Would that it were so easy...
10:05 < newmanbe> !hail akh, king of the Pessemists
10:05 < newmanbe> :-p
10:06 < akh> My wife says the same thing (w/o the 'hail')  ;-)
10:10 < akh> I've got one package that won't update for me at all...not too bad, all things considered.
10:11 < newmanbe> You need to make a religion around you and have your believers do all your work for you: gopher://erwin.complete.org/0/Archives/mirrors/textfiles.com/humor/how2bgod.txt
10:14 < akh> Yeah--that beats sending a message to fink-devel about an unmaintained package.  :-)
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10:20 < newmanbe> NOAA is absolutly useless!
10:20 < newmanbe> Reporting the temperature in F.
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10:32 < akh> You know the conversion if you want it in C.
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10:39 < akh> They figure most people in the US don't care.  ;-)
10:43 -!- pHatidic is now known as pHatidic_
10:51 < akh> grrr...lazy people!  "Unsubscribe me," they say, but they don't send the unsubscribe message from the subscribed address, nor do they provide the subscribed address.
10:52 < pogma> ignore them
10:52 < akh> I sent a note saying they weren't subscribed at that address--they did use the proper channel (fink-users-admin) even if they are lazy.
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12:54 < Murr> talking of tarring and feathering, I nominate the author of pyobjc
12:55 < Murr> a package that you have to manually uninstall when you want to update it
12:55 < newmanbe> Melian: Get the pitchforks and torches. We're marching onto pyobjc!
12:56 < Murr> the fink peasants are getting restless
12:56 < Murr> or should that be "feasants" ?
12:56 < newmanbe> lol
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13:13 < Hentai> Hello zizban, you there?
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13:25 < cirdan> hey drm
13:25 < drm> hey cirdan
13:25 < newmanbe> Not poor drm!
13:25 < newmanbe> No AOL.
13:25 < cirdan> how goes it?
13:25 < drm> nope, broadband at a coffee shop
13:25 < newmanbe> You should be using Tor!
13:26 < newmanbe> All those people could be sniffing what you are doing right now!
13:26 < drm> sniff away, folks
13:26 < drm> (all the secure stuff is done via ssh :)
13:26  * RangerRick makes sure to not wash his irc client for a couple of days for maximum effect
13:27 < cirdan> like...irc :-)
13:27 < cirdan> heh
13:27  * cirdan hands RangerRick BitchX for added flavor
13:27 < drm> RangerRick: eww
13:29 < drm> does anybody know if the mass backporting is finished?
13:29 < cirdan> dunno
13:38 < RangerRick> drm: if not, it's slowed down a lot  :)
13:38 < RangerRick> I think most everything that was going to be backported is
13:40 < drm> ok, cool
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13:49 < Murr> morning
13:50 < Murr> http://americaninlebanon.blogspot.com/2005/07/backstroke-of-west.html
13:50 < cirdan> hey murr
13:50 < cirdan> 'noon
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13:57 < beniamino> can anyone tell me what combination of environment vars and parameters get artsd working from the command line? i.e. without kde
13:58 < beniamino> i made a darwinports port based on the fink port. it builds fine but i can't get it to actually do anything
14:00 < RangerRick> I don't know that I've tried it on the command-line outside of kde, like... in forever
14:00 < RangerRick> I'm really not sure
14:00 < RangerRick> I do know you need to use the "esd" output
14:03 < beniamino> hmm... 'sudo artswrapper -a esd' gives no errors, but no server either
14:03 < RangerRick> what about artsd itself, rather than artswrapper?
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14:05 < cirdan> beniamino: you should not need to run it as root, should you?
14:06 < beniamino> 'sudo artsd -a esd' is the same -- no error message, but artsplay x.wav -> can't connect to server
14:06 < beniamino> cirdan: i just thought sudo would reduce by 1 the number of things that could not work
14:06 < cirdan> nope
14:07 < cirdan> try artsd -l 0 -a esd
14:07 < cirdan> also, what does artsd -A output?
14:08 < beniamino> artsd -A gives null or esd
14:08 < cirdan> ok, then try the other thing i said
14:10 < beniamino> [ben@assam ben] $ artsd -l 0 -a esd
14:10 < beniamino> artsd version is 1.4.1
14:10 < beniamino> gsl: using Unix98 pthreads directly for mutexes and conditions
14:10 < beniamino> [artsd:  5514] SoundServerStartup --> got lock
14:10 < beniamino> using device Built-in Audio for output:
14:10 < beniamino>         with sample rate 44100.000000, 2 channels and 32-bit sample
14:10 < beniamino> using device Built-in Audio for input:
14:10 < beniamino>         with sample rate 44100.000000, 2 channels and 32-bit sample
14:10 < beniamino> virtualize StereoVolumeControl
14:10 < beniamino> audio format is 44100 Hz, 16 bits, 2 channels
14:10 < beniamino> addDirectory(/opt/local/lib/mcop,)
14:10 < beniamino> addDirectory(/opt/local/lib/mcop/Arts,Arts)
14:11 < beniamino> addDirectory(/Users/ben/.mcop/trader-cache,)
14:11 < beniamino> [artsd:  5514] SoundServerStartup <-- released lock
14:11 < beniamino> [sorry if pasting like this is annoying]
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14:11 < beniamino> looks promising...
14:11 < cirdan> have fun then
14:11 < beniamino> but artsplay x.wav just hangs.  no error message
14:11 < cirdan> you tried again?
14:11 < RangerRick> beniamino: in the future, please use lisppaste to paste larger amounts of stuff
14:11 < cirdan> does esdplay work?
14:11 < beniamino> yep, esdplay is fine
14:11 < beniamino> rangerrick: ok, sorry 'bout that
14:11 < RangerRick> I honestly haven't used any of arts' command-line stuff since, like, arts 1.1 or so
14:12 < RangerRick> it's not unlikely that it's broken
14:12 < RangerRick> arts is a piece of crap anyways
14:12 < akh> *gasp*
14:12 < beniamino> :-)
14:12 < RangerRick> :)
14:18 < beniamino> rangerrick: so does kde sound work on fink?
14:20 < RangerRick> beniamino: yeah
14:20 < beniamino> so you think artsplay/artscat might be broken, but the server's ok?
14:21 < RangerRick> and sound works, for me at least, although it's still a bit... off-and-on
14:36 < akh> I'm at about 50 %
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14:53 < ericb2> hi
14:54 < ericb2> I have a problem with libkdeui.4.dylib : this one is linked against libfreetype.6.dylib but, the version does not match :
14:54 < ericb2> Referenced from: /sw/lib/libkdeui.4.dylib
14:54 < ericb2> Reason: Incompatible library version: libkdeui.4.dylib requires version 10.0.0 or later, but libfreetype.6.dylib provides version 6.3.0 ../unxmacxp.pro/lib/libvclplug_kde680mxp.dylib
14:55 < ericb2> I just want to know if this is possible to rebuild kdelibs, or somethiing like that ?
14:55 < ericb2> maybe otheer kdelibs have such problems
14:56 < RangerRick> possible to rebuild
14:56 < RangerRick> you haven't changed X11's recently, have you?
14:56 < RangerRick> downgrading X11's can have that effect
14:56 < RangerRick> or DYLD_LIBRARY_PATH being set to something bad
14:57 < ericb2> RangerRick: I have the one provided by Apple for Tiger ( kb disabled )
14:57 < ericb2> I'm trying to implement kdeplugins for OOo2.0
14:57 < ericb2> in order to use kde themes
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14:58 < ericb2> it works already for gtk themes
14:58 < RangerRick> it's more a problem with changing X11's than whatever one you happen to have, like, if you had x.org installed when you built kde, then upgraded/changed to apple's x11, or got apple's x11 from an upgrade to tiger
14:59 < ericb2> I'm sure I had the same X11 when I have built  kde
15:00 < ericb2> probably rebuild kdelibs is the most simple
15:00 < RangerRick> worth a shot
15:00 < RangerRick> so you're not setting DYLD_LIBRARY_PATH ? 
15:00 < RangerRick>  what does "echo $DYLD_LIBRARY_PATH" on the command-line print?
15:00  * ericb2 looks
15:01 < ericb2> don't know if this is interesting :   .:/Volumes/sauvegarde/Openoffice.org680/solver/680/unxmacxp.pro/lib
15:02 < RangerRick> . ?
15:02 < RangerRick> that's most likely bad
15:02 < RangerRick> althouhg not necessarily the cause for this
15:03 < ericb2> the cause is really a versioning mismatch
15:03 < RangerRick> DYLD doesn't act like LD in regards to library_path, crazy things can happen if you set it, most of the time
15:05 < ericb2> RangerRick: if I want to rebuild kdelibs, everything kde needs to be rebuild, right ?
15:06 < ericb2> so, maybe deinstall everything kde and download the same but already and cleanly build should do it ?
15:09 < RangerRick> maybe, since osx is so picky about libs
15:10 < RangerRick> you could try just rebuilding kdelibs and see what happens
15:10 -!- Feanor [~astrange@dsl-80-44-75-14.access.as9105.com] has joined #fink
15:17 < ericb2> I have tried with fink commander rebuilding from source, is it correct ?
15:18 < akh> Sounds right.
15:19 < ericb2> thank you :-)
15:19 < akh> no problem
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16:07 < dmacks> Fingolfin! He's alive!!
16:08 -!- KraMer__ [~mark@adsl-70-240-184-118.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #fink
16:09 < Fingolfin> hi dmacks
16:09 < dmacks> Thanks for clearing out the backlog of -bugs.
16:10 < Fingolfin> ahh, a typical day, where I should have been learning all the time for the next major exam... whenever things come up that are "not nice", i tend to clean the laundry. I.e. tend to old bug reports, fix things, update packages, clean up my desktop, sort my CD collection.... ;-)
16:10 -!- cianhugh1s [~cianhughe@ti.cian.ws] has joined #fink
16:11 < Fingolfin> now... *cough* only problem is that this means the learning gets a bit, uhmm, less attention than desirable
16:11 < dmacks> heh yeah.
16:20 < Fingolfin> anyway, about 30 bugs closed, more set to pending, not too bad ;-)
16:21 < dmacks> ...and one moron user who posts directly to the fink-tracker mailing list.
16:22 < Fingolfin> yeah :-)
16:22 < Fingolfin> dmacks: can this be closed? <https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1156904&group_id=17203&atid=117203>
16:23 < Fingolfin> (if so, please do so :-)
16:23 < Fingolfin> hm, fink-tracker probably should be configured so that it doesn't allow everybody to post to it...
16:24 < Fingolfin> only mails by noreply@sourceforge.net should be sent through automatically. or something like that
16:24 < Fingolfin> in fact I thought I had done that a long time ago =)
16:24 < dmacks> Yeah. I have -auto-logs set up to block everyone but a few select addresses.
16:25 < dmacks> mailman has some weird interactions among its allowed-poster config settings.
16:26 -!- Albie [~ambs@82.155.39.236] has quit ["Leaving"]
16:27  * dmacks sent laurent an email; didn't *actually* use the word "moron"
16:27 < Fingolfin> I have fixed the fink-tracker settings; now only tracker messages should get through
16:28 < Fingolfin> I did indeed do this before, but for scummvm-tracker, not fink-tracker :-)
16:28 < dmacks> :)
16:30 < dmacks> So if we "just" arranged to have complete control over the whole system software, we could stop playing these damn freetype2 and fontconfig2 games?
16:31 < Fingolfin> yeah =)
16:31 < Fingolfin> that's one of those things that the Debian / Gentoo / etc. folks have and we don't and which always kind of made us green with envy <g>
16:31 < Fingolfin> total control....
16:31 < Fingolfin> anyway....
16:31  * Fingolfin is leaving now, going to cinema. Sneak preview. I wonder which bad moview they are going to show tonight...
16:31 < Fingolfin> keep up the great work folks, and cya
16:31 < dmacks> Whatever it is, it's better than studying.
16:31 < Fingolfin> <g>
16:31 < Fingolfin> right right =)
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16:42 -!- EnsignRedshirt [~EnsignRed@rrcs-24-213-192-70.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #fink
16:42 < EnsignRedshirt> Hello, world.
16:43 < dmacks> HELO
16:43 < EnsignRedshirt> A newb question: What is the meaning of the -nox versions of packages?
16:43 < dmacks> graphics-disabled (we usually use x11 for graphics, so it's "No X")
16:44 < EnsignRedshirt> OK, I guessed it was something like that.  Which should I install?  Most of what I am looking for use a gui of some sort.
16:44 < dmacks> If you want a _G_UI, something with no graphics is probably the wrong choice:)
16:44 -!- citizen_0 [~user@va-sterling-u1-c5c-a-146.chvlva.adelphia.net] has joined #fink
16:45 < EnsignRedshirt> Makes sense... :)
16:48 < dmacks> It's pretty rare that normal users use a -nox variant of anything these days. foo and foo-nox are mutually exclusive; many pkgs either don't know about the -nox form or really do require graphics support, so they require only the non -nox one. So sooner than later, you'll wind up needing the non -nox anyway.
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17:02 < ugly> is there a way to disable automounting of CDs by finder?
17:04 -!- spundun [~spundun@mermaid.isi.edu] has joined #fink
17:09  * spundun wonders why fink install xorg is not working.
17:09 < spundun> is xorg taken out of fink package database?
17:09 < spundun> oh wait.. must be the enable unstable issue
17:17 -!- Lawjoskar is now known as LawjoskarAway
17:24 < EnsignRedshirt> More newb questions: What is the "best" way to use X apps if I am running OS X 10.3?  According to docs on the fink web page, Apple provides X11.
17:33 < Murr> yes
17:33 < Murr> use it
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17:39 < EnsignRedshirt> Murr: I've been doing more reading, and answering partially answering my own questions.  It looks like I just run startx, or click on XDarwin.  (Yup, I wasn't kidding when I said newb!)
17:39 < Murr> you just click on X11.app
17:40 < EnsignRedshirt> Where is that?  
17:40 < Murr> in /Applications/Utilities
17:41 < EnsignRedshirt> I don't have it.  I have XDarwin in Applications.
17:42 < EnsignRedshirt> Clicking on XDarwin seems to work. It starts up a login console and two xterms by default.
17:43 < Murr> hmm, maybe it used to be called XDarwin a long time ago, in a galaxy far away
17:43 < RangerRick> xdarwin is non-apple-x11
17:45 -!- bmaret [~smaret@MARETMACLT2.astro.lsa.umich.edu] has joined #fink
17:45 < bmaret> hi folks
17:45 < bmaret> I have a question about dependencies
17:45 < bmaret> I have a package which depends on gtk+2
17:46 < bmaret> gtk+2 depends itself on glib2, pango, etc...
17:47 < bmaret> should I put glib2-shlibs and pango-xft2-shlibs in the depends: fields of the info file of my package ?
17:47 < bmaret> or just gtk+2 ?
17:47 < EnsignRedshirt> RangerRick, Murr: So if I am running 10.3.9, I *should* have X11.app?  The computer was set up for me by tech staff, so they are probably the ones who installed XDarwin.
17:49 < RangerRick> EnsignRedshirt: if you're running 10.3.9 and you installed x11 off your panther cds you would
17:49 < RangerRick> it was an optional part of the install
17:49 < RangerRick> bmaret: just gtk+2 should be fine in that case
17:50 < RangerRick> bmaret: you do need to list glib2-dev and pango-xft2-dev in the BuildDepends: though
17:50 < EnsignRedshirt> RangerRick: Thanks, I'll take a look.  I didn't set the computer up myself, but I have the CDs.
17:52 < bmaret> RangerRick: thanks. i thought one has to put all the libs that otool -L <mypackagebin> gives ?
17:55 < bmaret> btw, why list the -dev in the BuildDepends but not the -shlibs in Depends ?
17:57 < RangerRick> bmaret: because gtk+2-shlibs depends on glib2-shlibs, so you won't have to install it yourself
17:57 < RangerRick> but -dev's are not allowed to be depended on
17:58 < RangerRick> I know there's been some work to automatically inherit builddepends from packages you builddepend on, but I don't know the status of it
17:58 < bmaret> ok
17:59 < bmaret> then I guess that the simplest way to deal with that is to make a otool -L on the binary and put all the shlibs in depends and dev in buildepends
18:00 -!- You're now known as RangerAway
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18:20 < ugly> the 'bc' port seems to have problems with the standard math library
18:20 < ugly> when bc is called with the '-l' flag, it segfaults
18:37 < ericb2> bye
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19:49 < newmanbe> !lart the BBC for making me enable JavaScript and Flash
19:49  * Melian beats the BBC into protomatter with the andromeda galaxy for making me enable JavaScript and Flash
19:49 < Jerub> nothing wrong with javascript if you have a modern browser.
19:49 < Jerub> but flash is unforgivable.
19:50 < newmanbe> It uses JavaScript to detect if you have Flash.
19:50 < newmanbe> And everything is wrong with JavaScript!
19:50 < newmanbe> That too in unfogivable.
19:51 < Jerub> oh, there's lots wrong with JavaScript.
19:51 < Jerub> but nothing wrong enough to cause anyone to leave it deactivated in this day and age
19:52 < newmanbe> This day and age?
19:53  * newmanbe does not know what day and age you are talking about.
19:54 < Jerub> like, since firefox 1.0 was released.
19:55  * newmanbe thinks your reasoning is flawed.
19:55 < Jerub> quite often is.
19:58 -!- akh [~akhansen@68-118-244-23.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #fink
20:11 < dmacks> akh: The MIT folks who submitted the bullshit conference paper have a good webpage about their results.
20:12 < akh> Yeah?
20:13 < dmacks> http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/scigen
20:19 < akh> heh
20:20 < akh> http://punitive-surgery.lcs.mit.edu/scicache/365/scimakelatex.85372.D.+Macks.D.+Vasilevsky.D.+Morrison.html
20:26 < newmanbe> The Three D's.
20:27 < dmacks> Crikey, even the abstract is alliterative.
20:28 < newmanbe> You are just so proud of yourself, your brain can't digest it. :-p
20:28  * akh should generate a few of these so that I can get a tenure-track job.
20:29 < newmanbe> Use it as a Ph.D. thesis. ;)
20:32 < akh> Nah, have one of those.
20:34 < Jerub> my wife is an academic, she laughed.
20:34 < akh> Yeah--it does hit home.
20:35 < newmanbe> akh: Of course you have your Ph.D. I won't tell anyone.
20:35 -!- baba [~baba@YahooBB220041000208.bbtec.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
20:35 < Jerub> I've read papers that have been less intelligble than that too.
20:35 < akh> Jerub: yup
20:36 < akh> newmanbe: heh--It's somewhere in Madison.
20:36 < newmanbe> Sure.
20:36 < newmanbe> You don't have to keep pretending to me still.
20:37 < akh> *sigh* still can't update eterm.
20:38 -!- zizban [~zizban@24-52-0-219.sbtnvt.adelphia.net] has joined #fink
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20:45  * dmacks built eterm no problem last weekend.
20:46 < dmacks> It's a massively old version, didn't care enough to actually upgrade it.
20:55 < zizban> have you seen the elive linux cd?
20:59 -!- citizen_0 [~user@va-sterling-u1-c5c-a-146.chvlva.adelphia.net] has left #fink ["Leaving"]
21:00 < akh> dmacks: But do you have the same OS / Developer Tools setup that I do?
21:00 < akh> That's the question
21:01 < akh> zizban: no--what's it got?
21:08 < zizban> http://livecd.debianitas.net/
21:10 < dmacks> akh: 10.3, XCode1.5.
21:10 < dmacks> , AppleX11
21:11 < akh> dmacks: That would be utterly unlike my setup then.  ;-)
21:11 < akh> zizban: Looks fun. 
21:18 -!- akh [~akhansen@68-118-244-23.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit []
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21:24 < cirdan> yo
21:24 < zizban> it does look good...the next version will be installable
21:37 < akh> I'll stick with a KDE-oriented distro, myself.
21:37 < akh> Wonder if kubuntu has 3.4...
21:40 < cirdan> heh
21:41 < dmacks> Not if RangerAway can help it!
21:42 < akh> hehe--so it's a cross-platform conspiracy?
21:42 < dmacks> I've said too much already.
21:42 < newmanbe> It expands even past the cross-platform stuff!
21:42 < newmanbe> It involves things such as KDE 3.4 for Dummies,
21:43 < newmanbe> and such books.
21:45 < akh> oooh!  Books, too.
21:46 < akh> He's apparently kept it out of Debian.
21:46 < akh> (somebody sure has)
21:48 < akh> 3.3 is so retro.
21:48 < akh> It's like my grandfather's KDE.
21:48 < akh> ;-)
21:48 < Jerub> hah
21:48  * Jerub remembers when kde 3.0 was the next big thing.
21:49 < Jerub> and I was still running a 2.x konq
21:49 < Jerub> that was before electricity came in wall sockets of course. We had to pedel an excecise bike 30 miles in the snow to get a computer to run for a minute
21:50 < akh> Uphill both ways.
21:51 < dmacks> "This is not your father's koldsmobile"?
21:51 -!- newmanbe [~newmanbe@29245905ac1b4f11.session.tor] has quit ["leaving"]
21:54 < dmacks> You had pedals? We had to weld our feet to the crank. 
21:56 < zizban> My first experience with linux was kde 1.1
21:58 < zizban> kernel 2.2.10
22:07 < akh> 2.2.10?  Luxury!
22:07 < zizban> you had .99 right?
22:07 < zizban> no x window
22:09 < akh> I think it was 1.2.x, and X11R5.
22:09 < Jerub> that was my first experience. 1.2.x and X11R5.
22:09 < Jerub> I didn't know what to DO with X.
22:09 < Jerub> but I found /usr/games/*
22:09 < Jerub> :)
22:10 < akh> yup.
22:10 < zizban> heh
22:10  * akh tried to run X stuff remotely over a 28.8 dialup line.
22:10 < zizban> didn't X11R5 have uwm as it's default wm?
22:10 < zizban> no that was X11R3
22:10 < akh> I had twm.
22:11 < akh> And even then I hated it.
22:13 < zizban> did anyone like it, ever?
22:15 < akh> doubt it
22:15 < zizban> didn't think so
22:20 < akh> hmmm.../me wonders if the Unison-2.10.2 on the tracker works...
22:21 < zizban> go find out
22:21 < akh> guess so...I wonder what magic he did to get it to build.
22:23 < akh> However, /me has a later version on my boxen which works fine.
22:24 < akh> It's not a Fink package, but also doesn't interfere.
22:24 < zizban> ah
22:24 < akh> Unfortunately the GUI borked when I upgraded to Tiger--and the guy who built it hasn't made a Tiger version.
22:24 < akh> Meanwhile, I'm totally unable to build it myself.
22:25 < zizban> ouch
22:27 < akh> Maybe I can use his .info file as a template.  That wouldn't suck.
22:28  * akh ponders, and goes to bed to dream of new package additions.
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22:57 < dmacks> msachs: Instead of relying on the internal implementation of the "new" PkgVersion parent API, why not just ask your $pkgobj if it can get_parent() ? Otherwise you're screwed if in the future we change {parent} to contain a hashref that isn't the exact parent object.
22:58 < msachs> Does UNIVERSAL::can do the right thing in the blessed reference case?
22:58 -!- mcp [~hightower@wolk-project.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
22:59 < msachs> If you change it to something else that's not a hashref, I'll try calling get_parent on it, and that'll fail.
22:59 < dmacks> ...you hope.
22:59 < msachs> Well if it gets changed to something that supports get_parent but does something random, I'm willing to blame you :)
22:59 -!- mcp [~hightower@wolk-project.de] has joined #fink
23:00 < dmacks> $obj->can("method")
23:00 < msachs> Right, but in the old stituation, $obj is an unblessed hashref.
23:00 < msachs> I think maybe I could do UNIVERSAL::can("method")
23:01 < msachs> But I don't see what that gains me, except possibly I could try falling back to ->{parent} and if you ever switch back to supporting ->{parent} but not get_parent, but are still a blessed ref -- then my code would just work.
23:01 < dmacks> $pkgobj might not be an object?
23:02 < msachs> Oh, right, this is on that, not on $po->{parent}.
23:03 < dmacks> I'm thinking in general it's better to try new API (and use it) first else fall back to direct access to private data structures, rather than vice versa.
23:03 < msachs> Mm, good point.
23:04 < dmacks> Not sure the specific best-way to do that here, but that commit msg reminded me to say something about it:)
23:05 < msachs> $parent = $pkgobj->can("get_parent") ? $pkgobj->get_parent()->get_name() : $pkgobj->{parent}->get_name();
23:06 < dmacks> ya
23:06 < msachs> And so it is committed.
23:07 < dmacks> If vasi ever switches to autoloading, we're revisit this issue.
23:07 < msachs> It's good to break occasionally, reminds people I exist, including myself.
23:07 < dmacks> :)
23:08 < pogma> you need to be reminded?
23:08 < htodd> anyone know what I need to edit to make my apps not have .app on the end?
23:09 < msachs> Sometimes.
23:09 < msachs> htodd: You mean you don't want the .app to show up in Finder?
23:09 < pogma> hmm, speaking of reminders, I was told to go to the bank 2days ago and have yet to go
23:09 < htodd> yeah, so Terminal.app just says Terminal
23:09 < htodd> pogma: thanks for reminding me, I have to bill a guy for some work I did
23:09 -!- spundun [~spundun@mermaid.isi.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"]
23:10 < msachs> Uh, you can change it via Finder preferences, under Advanced, not sure what that's doing under the hood.
23:11 < htodd> thanks
23:11 < msachs> Possibly com.apple.systempreferences.plist
23:12 < htodd> now I just have to figure out how to back up my laptop so I can reformat the disk to be case sensitive
23:12 < htodd> unless that's a bad idea
23:12 < msachs> We probably only officially support it for OS X Server, but don't quote me on that.
23:13 < htodd> :) well, you can do it in tiger
23:14 < msachs> Well yeah, you can do lots of things we don't support.
23:15 -!- will__ [~will@c-24-91-204-10.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #fink
23:15 < pogma> they usually don't let you do things through the GUI if they are not supported and formatting your boot drive HFSX is an option at install on tiger
23:16 < msachs> Oh, through the GUI?  Didn't realize that.
23:16  * pogma hopes his memory is correct and that it is indeed an option  :-p
23:17 < msachs> How's it going, pogma?
23:17 < htodd> yes it is
23:17 < htodd> (an option, that is)
23:17 < htodd> not something I did from the command line (this time)
23:19 -!- vasi [~vasi@modemcable133.147-70-69.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #fink
23:19 < msachs> 'lo vasi
23:19 < vasi> hi msachs
23:20 < vasi> do you think it's possible to do a buildfink as i was wondering on -devel?
23:20 < msachs> Which thread was that, I must've missed that one...
23:23 < vasi> http://www.mail-archive.com/fink-devel@lists.sourceforge.net/msg11955.html
23:24 < vasi> basically, the idea is to modify the .info files so that nothing is essential unless it's REALLY needed for fink to work
23:25 < msachs> Okay, so just a build with a modified list of essentials?  Sure, if you give me the list I can fire one off.
23:25 < vasi> yeah, well i'm not sure of the right list
23:25 < vasi> definitely need fink
23:25 < msachs> How easy is it to change the list of essentials, just a change to one of the .pm or does it require lots of mucking about in info?
23:25 < vasi> dpkg and its depends
23:25 < msachs> Do we really need to dep on tar and gzip or can we fall back to the system versions?
23:26 < vasi> it's a field in the .info's....
23:26 < msachs> Okay.
23:26 < vasi> yeah, tar and gzip and bzip2 can probably go
23:26 < vasi> alternatively, you can just modify the line in Engine.pm that makes essential packages "implicit depends" of all other packages
23:26 < vasi> that's probably the best thing to do
23:26 < msachs> Well there are a few things that need to work.
23:27 < vasi> and then simply make sure that your "revert to only essential packages" method removes even some essentials
23:27 < msachs> fink has to not insist on having these formerly-essential packages installed, and they have to get removed by my cleaner.
23:27 < vasi> yeah, exactly as i was saying :-)
23:28 < vasi> you know, maybe we shouldn't do this at all, i'm reconsidering whether it's a good idea to remove the implicit depends
23:28 < vasi> dmacks, this is your cue to start convincing me again :-)
23:28 < msachs> Well what's the motivation, make it easier to bootstrap, make it possible to have a truly minimal system?
23:29 < vasi> makes it easier to remove Essential from packages in the future
23:29 < vasi> now that's very very difficult...
23:29 < msachs> Right, but why is that a desirable thing to be able to do?
23:29 < vasi> well if we want to move dpkg to use gettext3 (and we do!)...
23:30  * dmacks is on the phone.
23:30 < vasi> and any other refactoring of essentials that ever is desired
23:30 < msachs> Well we could do that and still have libgettext be essential, and maybe that would be a spurious essential, but that doesn't stop us from switchign dpkg.
23:31 < vasi> msachs, we'd end up with an ever-growing list of essentials
23:31 < vasi> which makes fink take more space, and makes it harder to bootstrap
23:31 < msachs> Agreed.
23:32 < vasi> i'm thinking maybe we should just do all the refactoring we want for the 10.4 (non-transitional) tree
23:32 < vasi> rather than removing the implicit depends
23:32 < msachs> I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, I just want to make sure there's a clear understanding of the motivation and what the priority should be.
23:32 < vasi> and then deal with things then, before users get to touch that tree, rather than risk breaking things in the current tree
23:32 < msachs> Well, we'd still need to find out what really needs the current-essentials.
23:33  * vasi is kinda hoping we have some kinda auto-builder in place by then :-)
23:33 < msachs> So doing it just in 10.4 is safe but still the same amount of work.
23:33 < vasi> well the idea is we HAVE to test everything all over again, so we might as do all major changes at the same time
23:34 < vasi> which is why i'd like fink 0.25 to be released not long before 10.4 as well :-)
23:34 < msachs> I have my big presentation next week, so I might have more time to work on it after then possibly, either that or after August when I head back east, but I wouldn't count on having it done before, say, December, unless someone else wants to put in some work on it.
23:34 < vasi> yeah, i'm not trying to push you
23:34 < msachs> ("big presentation" == presentation to VP & co on my big [non-Fink] summer project, which is what I've been spending all my time on lately.)
23:34 < vasi> btw, i'm doing more hacking on Package.pm in prep for 0.25, so expect a few things to break
23:35 < msachs> Yeah, just want to let you know what my schedule is, don't want you to depend on things being in place if they aren't going to be.
23:35 < vasi> the good news is the package DB will be load-on-demand, so 'use Fink' should become easier
23:35 < vasi> good luck on the presentation!
23:35 < msachs> Cool.
23:35 < msachs> Thanks.  Showing it to my group tomorrow.
23:35 < vasi> are you allowed to tell us what it is, or is it uber-secret? ;-)
23:36 < msachs> brb
23:36 < vasi> k
23:45 < dmacks> Okay, what am I supposed to tell who to do about what?
23:46 < msachs> back
23:46 < msachs> It's a system for dealing with test data, and browsing it and querying it and doing comparisons and stuff.
23:47 < vasi> anything that makes testing easier is a good thing :-)
23:47 < vasi> dmacks, you're supposed to convince me why we want to remove the implicit depends on essentials
23:49 < msachs> I'll probably start using it for my runs at some point, although I don't know how much of that will get exposed to you guys unless we ever release it or something crazy like that.
23:50 < vasi> msachs, as long as the results of buildfinks are browsable in some way by us mortals, it's cool by me
23:51 < vasi> one thing i would like to know is if you have a set of .info modifications that essential to a buildfink, for things like bypassing prompts in PostInst?
23:52 < msachs> vasi: Of course.  The only info-modifying I do is I run everything through finkfilter_sysgcc for my normal builds, but that's only because I want it all to use gcc 4, it works fine without it and I've done a couple of builds that way.
23:52 < msachs> What I do do is exclude any packages that demand interaction, a set I've discovered empirically.
23:52 < vasi> passwd seems to get installed...
23:52 < msachs> And that's one of the failure categories, "excluded" or something.
23:53 < msachs> Maybe it detects that stdin isn't a tty and doesn't bother prompting?
23:53 < vasi> could be...i ought to buy a new hard drive and play with it more :-)
23:53 < msachs> Excuses to buy HDs are always welcome.
--- Log closed Thu Jul 21 00:00:37 2005