--- Log opened Thu Jul 21 00:00:37 2005
00:04 < vasi> argh, i'm having more fried brain issues
00:05 < msachs> ?
00:06 < vasi> i keep doing ok when i think of complicated stuff, but then totally forget the simple stuff 
00:06 < msachs> Anything in particular, or is this a general life issue?
00:06 < vasi> just something that's been happening to me in general this week
00:07 < msachs> Maybe you need more sleep.
00:07 < vasi> that's the strange thing, if there's anything i haven't done it's work too much or stress too much
00:07 < msachs> Guess you're just having an off week then.  It happens.
00:08 < msachs> Damnit, speaking of which, I forgot to eat again.
00:08 < vasi> yup...film fest is coming to town (or already in town?) so i'll use that as an excuse not to think for awhile, hopefully it'll be better soon
00:08 < vasi> msachs, ack!
00:09 < msachs> And roommates didn't bother washing pots, so I can't cook something even if I convinced myself to do so.
00:09 < msachs> Maybe it's sandwich time.
00:09 < vasi> i was gonna say "time to order pizza" :-)
00:10 < vasi> i swear that my girlfriend only keeps me around because i compulsively wash dishes ;-)
00:10 < msachs> Eh, that requires calling somewhere.
00:10 < msachs> Do I want a -- ooh, that weird sandwich I made once, maybe I want that...
00:10 < msachs> (peanut butter and hoisin sauce)
00:12 < vasi> ewww
00:14 < vasi> dmacks, is my brain fried more than i think, or did you do "prompt_selection API fix for wrong-checksum"?
00:16 < dmacks> vasi: Ayup I did that.
00:17 < vasi> can you change the ChangeLog to reflect that? :-)
00:17 < msachs> vasi: Yeah, that's most people's reaction.
00:17 < dmacks> Did I forget to commit the ChangeLog?
00:17 < msachs> I think it just means I'm too lazy to make tofu and want protein.
00:17 < vasi> dmacks, you put it under my name in the clog !
00:17 < dmacks> d'oh!
00:18 < vasi> msachs, so that's peanut butter, who needs the sauce?
00:18 < msachs> Freaks like me?
00:18 < vasi> *shrug* ok then :-)
00:18 < dmacks> pb&hoisin sounds kinda like something Thai.
00:18 < msachs> Well I don't like just peanut butter, it's too dry, and usually I do PB & jelly, but sometimes I don't want something sweet.
00:19 < dmacks> Go forthe elvis sandwich?
00:19 < msachs> What's that?
00:19 < dmacks> Or ants-on-a-log?
00:19 < msachs> Nah, I'm a vegetarian ;)
00:19 < vasi> PB and banana is good for me
00:20 < msachs> Mm.  If I had bananas I might've done that.
00:20 < dmacks> Unless you live in a *really* skanky apt, ants on a log is vegetarian, and (depending how you make it) also vegan.
00:20 < msachs> Oh, what is it?
00:20 < dmacks> Fill a celery stalk with cream cheese or peanut butter, sprinkle with raisins.
00:21 < msachs> Ah.  Well I have one of those ingredients :)
00:21 < msachs> I'm not good at figuring out what to buy to, like, generally have food around such that I can decide I want something and I'll probably have the stuff to make it.
00:21 < dmacks> Me neither.
00:22 < msachs> It's really hard this summer because the four of us aren't combining groceries, so I buy stuff just for myself and it goes bad before I can use much of it, plus space in the fridge is tight, plus I have to carry groceries back on foot so can't buy too much anyway...
00:22 < msachs> It was easier during the school year when there were five of us shopping communally.
00:22 < vasi> oooh that's not a good solution
00:22 < vasi> shared fridge is usually much better
00:22 < dmacks> http://www.handcoding.com/archives/2003/09/02/the-elvis-peanut-butter-bacon-and-banana/
00:22 < msachs> I agree, vasi.
00:23 < dmacks> I got plenty of fridge space if anyone needs it.
00:23 < msachs> I'll keep that in mind ;)
00:23 < msachs> I'm not here for too much longer, headed back to Mass on Aug 20th, and back to sharing food, albeit only with two others this time.
00:26 < dmacks> In college, housemates and I shopped together, but mostly bought our own stuff, then went home and tossed it all into a single community shelf.
00:26 < dmacks> One guy wanted onions, one wanted potatoes.
00:26 < dmacks> ...from which we learned "*never* store onions and potatoes on the same shelf"
00:27 < msachs> Makes them go tentacley?
00:27 < dmacks> Much much worse...the taters decay into a virtually liquid state, smells like a corpse.
00:27 < vasi> *shudder*
00:28 < msachs> That sounds ever-so-lovely.
00:28 < dmacks> (the peel retains it shape; the insides dribble out)
00:28 < dmacks> Was it Sun's manpages that had cooking tips buried in them?
00:29 -!- will__ [~will@c-24-91-204-10.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
00:35 < vasi> i almost never use dashboard, but i'm loving it anyhow
00:35 < Jerub> I only use the ical widget.
00:35 < msachs> Hey Jerub.
00:35 < vasi> it takes all the bad UIs and dumb ideas that developers can come up with, and puts them in their own little zoo where they can't bother me
00:35 < msachs> I hear you're doing some sort of buildbot-type thing?
00:37 < Jerub> msachs: I attempted to implement one last weekend, but they ended up watching 'Dr Who' at my LUG. so I didn't get any programming done.
00:37 < vasi> heh
00:37 < Jerub> msachs: buildbot falls over with 4700 buildslaves.
00:38 < msachs> Jerub: Don't know if you've seen, but I've been doing world builds for QA purposes, and I've been talking about moving towards a more "build things as they come in, notify people if they fail" type situation to give us a set-up more like Debian's.
00:38 < Jerub> msachs: essentially if I manage to solve the scalability problems (I know it's possible, canoncial use buildbot for their packages, but haven't released changes), then it should be quite possible.
00:39 < Jerub> msachs: it's possible to hook into CVS commit notifications to fire off builds.
00:39 < Jerub> http://build.fluendo.com:8080/ <- note the CVS commit column.
00:39 < msachs> My scripts are in scripts/buildfink in CVS, might be worth looking about.  And if you need any implementation help or want to bounce any ideas off me, let me know.
00:39 < Jerub> sure, thanks. :)
00:40 < msachs> Cool, that's how I was thinking of doing it to, either through subscribing to fink-commits or wiring directly into the bit in CVSROOT that triggers said fink-commits postings.
00:40 < msachs> *too
00:41 < Jerub> both work I believe.
00:41 < Jerub> I'm just trying to figure out how to resolve scalability issues.
00:41 < dmacks> I'm not sure relying on lists.sf is a good idea.
00:41 < Jerub> partitioning the packages will help.
00:41 < vasi> Jerub, do you know what fails?
00:41 < msachs> In terms of scaling to large number of build hosts?
00:42 < msachs> Or large number of packages per builder?
00:42 < vasi> ie: what causes it to break at ~4700 slaves?
00:42 < Jerub> msachs: yes, but i tihnk it will also be necessery in order to not build the entire repository when someone commits a change to a single package.
00:42 < dmacks> (SF's mailserver has been known to drop msgs, and often lags badly)
00:43 < msachs> brb
00:43 < Jerub> vasi: Kinda-sorta.
00:43 < Jerub> dmacks: sf's CVS lags 6 hours for anoncvs checkouts, so message lag isn't an issue.
00:43 < vasi> Jerub, one "slave" corresponds to one package?
00:43 < vasi> or to one build-box?
00:43 < dmacks> Jerub: that's not how cvs-commits works.
00:43 < Jerub> vasi: one slave is one process on any box, and can run an arbitary number of shell commands when its build is triggered.
00:44 < Jerub> basically, it's not a big issue, I just have to fix it.
00:45 < vasi> i guess i don't quite understand what you're doing...but that's ok :-)
00:45 < Jerub> sorry, this is stuff that's mostly internal to buildbot and twisted that I had problems with, but it's okay, I have commit access to both :)
00:46 < msachs> Jerub: Yeah, obviously you don't want to do full world builds for every submission.  It probably isn't worth having more than N slaves/host where N is the number of CPUs in that box.
00:47 < Jerub> msachs: yep, definately.
00:47 < Jerub> msachs: RealSoonNow, it should be possible for machines to advertise that they're free, and have builds farmed out, but currently it's all hardwired.
00:47 < Jerub> and slave build interlocks would be nice too.
00:47 < msachs> Characteristics that I'm interested in include the ability to check for various problems, ala fink validate, and also when there's spare cycles do things like check building with --build-as-nobody, check building with older or newer compilers (GCC 3.3  vs. GCC 4, Xcode 2.0 vs. Xcode 2.1, different OS's [maybe do Panther builds on a Tiger host via the SDKs...])
00:48 < Jerub> msachs: yeah, that's exactly the kinda thing that I want to attempt to achieve.
00:48 < msachs> Awesome.
00:49 < msachs> Well I was planning on doing this myself at some point, so let me know if you need any help.
00:49 < Jerub> :)
00:49 < Jerub> msachs: I've actually put some of my other projects indefinately on-hold to work on buildbot type stuff.
00:49 < Jerub> :)
00:50 < msachs> I've haven't had as much time for Fink this summer, my intern project's been eating up all of my time.
00:51 < msachs> But I've been able to follow traffic and pop my head in enough to mostly stay in the loop, and I've popped off a build or two.
00:52 < msachs> If it were worth it for people, it wouldn't be too much trouble to set it up so I just continually cycle through world builds...  I'm not sure that that'd be worthwhile, the builds don't seem to get as much response these days as they did during the earlier stages of Tiger bring-up.  I'm sure they'll get paid more attention to when we switch over from 10.4T to 10.4.
00:52 < msachs> Well, the packages with active maintainers tend to get fixed quickly, and the packages with not-so-active maintainers, those people may not even read fink-devel.
00:52 < vasi> msachs, i think part of the issue is the significant number of packages that aren't built due to dependency issues
00:53 < vasi> once a successful build becomes required for unstable => testing, i predict a lot of packages will suddenly find maintainers
00:53 < Jerub> the best thing about buildbot is that it can abuse people via email and irc.
00:54 < msachs> vasi: It's not /so/ large these days.  I keep hoping that the next build will be the one that finally gets significant progress on GNOME and KDE, but that keeps not happening for various reasons.
00:54 < dmacks> msachs: Is there a single webpage where I can go and see all the current build-world results? It's a pain to say "I've got some time to fix stuff, which email msg has the latest URL?"
00:54 < msachs> Jerub: Yeah, definitely.
00:54 < msachs> dmacks: http://fink.opendarwin.org/build/
00:54 < msachs> Just lists all the available results...
00:55 < vasi> msachs, i think continuous incremental builds (rather than world builds) will make it easier to get everything working
00:55 < vasi> much faster test-fix cycle
00:55 < dmacks> thx
00:56 < vasi> unfortunately the current algorithm in buildfink doesn't lend itself well to modification for non-world builds
00:57 < vasi> (msachs, i do plan to do some work on refactoring the Fink dep engine, probably for 0.26.x)
00:57 < msachs> vasi: Mm, well, you'd have to invert the dependency-graph stuff.
00:57 < dmacks> [new gnoem-vfs2* is waiting on 0.24.8; that will precipitate other chunks of gnome updating)]
00:57 < msachs> People also liked when I would send out maint notifications about specific problems, preferrably with patches.
00:57 < msachs> I doubt all of my 2.1 patches have been applied, I haven't had time to track those down.
00:57 < dmacks> "if we had a wiki......"
00:58 < vasi> msachs, well we'd have to do more like fink does...determine the needed packages top-down, then order it bottom-up
00:58 < msachs> Mm.
00:58 < msachs> wiki or BTS-that-doesn't-suck-cough-tracker-cough.
00:59 < vasi> wasn't cirdan talking about moving to opendarwin bugzilla?
00:59 < msachs> If you say so.  Someone was making noise about debbugs at some point, too.
00:59 < dmacks> We keep talkin' 'bout debian bts, nobody ever says "yes, we know this works and we shuold start using it as our primary system now; let's make the necessary doc and weblink changes"
00:59 < dmacks> cirdan's the debbugs man
01:00 < dmacks> I'm sorta-opposed to bugzilla, due to learning curve for newbies.
01:00 < msachs> debbugs is good for me because it can be driven via email, and I already have a script to take a list of packages and send per-maintainer emails to everyone owning something on that list..
01:00 < dmacks> Right.
01:01 -!- drm [~drm@ACC63DF0.ipt.aol.com] has joined #fink
01:01 < msachs> (Not that that's the behavior you'd want for debbugs, wouldn't want per-maint.)
01:01 < msachs> hey drm
01:01 < dmacks> hi drm
01:01 < drm> hey msachs, dmacks
01:01 < drm> and vasi too
01:01 < vasi> hey drm!
01:01 -!- mrcucmber [~will@c-24-91-204-10.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #fink
01:02 < drm> is all the backporting done, guys? is it release time?
01:02 < vasi> are you back? or just visiting?
01:02 < msachs> Haven't managed to be on at the same time as you in a while, welcome back(?)
01:02 < drm> msachs: i was on vacation
01:02 < drm> not exactly back, but sort of back
01:02 < mrcucmber> I'm installing apache2, and I noticed that it's installed under /sw/sbin isn't it standard practice to run apache as www rather than root?
01:02 < drm> actually in the same timezone as you right now, presumably just a few scant miles away, msachs
01:02 < vasi> drm, it's either done or almost-done....dmacks was saying something about PostInst
01:03 < vasi> mrcucmber, i'm not sure i understand....why is being installed in /sw/sbin relevant to the user apache runs as?
01:03 < msachs> Oh, cool, want lunch in Caffe Macs?
01:03 < drm> vasi: cool... i need to add something which will disable prebinding in the 10.4 tree, prior to release
01:03 < msachs> Or, like, a real restaurant even?
01:03 < msachs> I bet I could expense it ;p
01:03 < vasi> drm, what about 10.4-transitional?
01:03 < drm> msachs: sure
01:04 < dmacks> I can't think of any blockers for .8
01:04 < drm> vasi: its too late for 10.4-transitional... this affects debs
01:04 < mrcucmber> vasi: isn't sbin reserved for root only?
01:04 < vasi> drm, some debs WILL be built differently with .8, because of a fix to postinst
01:04 < drm> hmmm
01:04 < drm> that's not ideal
01:04 < msachs> drm: Cool, let me know what your schedule's like, and where you are and whether you have transportation.
01:05 < vasi> drm, i can't think of any good way to deal with modifying the standard postinst 
01:05 < drm> i'm in felton (just outside santa cruz), i have a rental car, but my schedule is a bit uncertain... this would have to be tomorrow or friday, though... am leaving sunday a.m.
01:05 < vasi> (for perl packages)
01:05 < dmacks> We shuold go back in time a few years, and have a script in Package:fink that handles common tasks instead of putting actual code in zillions of pkgs.
01:06  * drm awaits dmacks' Time::Travel module
01:06 < vasi> dmacks, we need to make a real TODO and schedule for 0.25
01:06  * dmacks thinks drm didn't read my ChangeLog commits:)
01:06 < vasi> i'm going to fix the blockers i'm aware of in Package.pm first, then we'll talk about that
01:07 < drm> well, i read the most recent one about the identity crisis
01:07 < msachs> I'm giving a presentation to my group tomorrow, Friday would be better for me.  Would you rather eat at Apple (some people would find that exciting, don't know if you're one of them) or a restaurant?
01:07 < dmacks> There's one after that.
01:07 < vasi> drm, i need to hear from you EXACTLY what is blocking 0.24 => stable
01:07 < drm> msachs: i've eaten at apple before, yet oddly, would still find it exciting :/
01:08 < mrcucmber> vasi: when I try and start apache as www, it understandably fails to bind to port 80, do I have to then run apache under root?
01:08 < vasi> TheSin can only give me really vague hand-waving
01:08 < drm> vasi: perhaps i'm going to give up, but:
01:08 < vasi> mrcucmber, i suspect you have to run it as root, but there's probably a way to make it drop root after binding to the port
01:08 < drm> vasi: what i don't like is that fink quits when it doesn't find a needed package, causing grief for many of our users
01:08 < vasi> drm, yes so we have switching in 0.25
01:08 < vasi> which can be backported
01:09 < vasi> but you've expressed that there's something wrong with that
01:09 < vasi> and nobody can explain to me *what* is wrong, in the simple "here's a log of fink doing something wrong" way
01:09 < drm> thesin was the one who said it wasn't finished yet
01:09 < drm> i've never even looked at what he did
01:09 < vasi> it's all vague "well i remember somebody saying that another person had something bad happened, but i can't reproduce it or explain exactly what's wrong"
01:10 < drm> but if its ready to roll in 0.25, why are we backporting all of this stuff? why don't we just release 0.25.0?
01:10 < vasi> and i really can't fix that for obvious reasons
01:10 < vasi> drm, because TheSin and you kept saying that 0.25 wasn't ready :-)
01:10 < drm> vasi: i will take a look at it
01:10 < vasi> drm, there are still some blockers in 0.25
01:11 < dmacks> HEAD is not ready to roll.
01:11 < vasi> most importantly, FinkCommander needs some fixes for it
01:11 < vasi> also rsync update doesn't work well with incr-idx, i'll be looking at that tomorrow
01:12 < drm> dmacks: words fail me
01:12 < vasi> dmacks, let's do some final testing of .8 (basically just bootstrapping on 10.3 and 10.4-T), and then post a tarball somewhere and ask -devel to test it
01:12 < vasi> after a week, we'll release it to unstable
01:13 < vasi> sound good?
01:13 < dmacks> Okay. /me forgot to check the 10.3/ bootstrap pkgs vs HEAD
01:13 < vasi> dmacks, fine....finalize anything you need to do, but i'd like to set a date that we'll get backporting done, and at that point just say "anything left over is for 0.25"
01:14 < drm> msachs: by the way, i haven't figured out how to "undo" the code (supplied by you) which puts in a symlink for 10.4 when NO_TRANS is set
01:14 < vasi> because there are serious fixes in .8 that we want to be released
01:14 < drm> we're going to actually have a 10.4 tree one of these days :/
01:14 < dmacks> Max is cleaning up mirrors. Pogma did a base-files tweak...shuold get them out soon too.
01:14 -!- Clef [~Clef@69-167-25-3.stmnca.adelphia.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer]
01:14 < msachs> Have selfupdate check to see if 10.4 is a symlink before updating the 10.4 tree?
01:15 < msachs> Or alternatively, update HEAD to always remove the symlink of it exists and points to 10.4-transitional.
01:15 < drm> yeah, we might need to do that... or, i was thinking that for some specified fink release, if 10.4 is a symlink then fink quits with an error and tells you to fix it
01:15 -!- Clef [~Clef@69-167-25-3.stmnca.adelphia.net] has joined #fink
01:15 < drm> or your way :)
01:15 < msachs> Mm.
01:16 < msachs> They're all equally good, and it only affects, um, me and maybe a couple of other people.
01:16 < drm> gotta think through the order of events, though... when does it try to selfupdate?
01:16 < drm> msachs: me and you, probably nobody else
01:16 < msachs> We never documented FINK_NOTRANS, so yeah.
01:16 < vasi> drm, if it's that special-cased, we shouldn't have code for it :-)
01:16 < msachs> When you say selfupdate.  Any other time?
01:17 < msachs> I don't know how much brain matter we should spend worrying about it, anyone who did it probably reads -commits :)
01:17 < drm> vasi: we did this once before -- stuck in some code for the developers who were testing a not-yet-released setup
01:18 < vasi> dmacks, drm: ok, 
01:18 < vasi> i'm basically gonna say "we send .8 to -devel on Monday"
01:19 < vasi> just because this needs to be released
01:19 < drm> alright, i'm gonna try putting the prebinding-disabling code there before that
01:19 < dmacks> vasi: Fine
01:19 < drm> vasi: tell me again about postinstall changing the debs?
01:19 < vasi> if anything's really needed, and not ready by then, somebody email me before monday :-)
01:19 < vasi> drm, ok basically fink has a standard postinst that's used for some perl packages (updatepod)
01:20 < vasi> postinst is part of a deb of course, so if the "standard postinst" changes, then newly built debs are different
01:20 < vasi> as dmacks says, we should have instead a command 'fink-update-pod' or something, so then we can change that without changing the .deb
01:21 < vasi> but that's a change too radical for .8
01:21 < vasi> for now, i think we should just accept that .debs will be slightly different, given that the actual change has probability of breakage approaching zero
01:22 < vasi> dmacks, are max and pogma still working on backporting issues to your knowledge?
01:22 < drm> well, one possibility is to have this updatepod only apply in the 10.4 tree
01:22 < drm> it doesn't violate policy to have the debs change from tree to tree
01:23 < vasi> drm, this is actually a bugfix though, not just an enhancement
01:23 < drm> yeah, i'm vaguely aware of it
01:23 < dmacks> I don' think pogma was ever backporting. I'll ask Max (I gotta email him about something else anyway)
01:23 < drm> so you want it for 10.3 also?
01:23 < vasi> thanks dmacks
01:23 < vasi> drm, yes i want it for existing trees
01:23  * dmacks agrees w/vasi
01:24 < drm> what is the effect of having some -pm's with the old updatepod script and some with the new?
01:24 < dmacks> Nothing.
01:24 < vasi> drm, the bug will occur less, that's all
01:25 < vasi> absolutely no compatibility issues
01:25 < drm> ok
01:25 < dmacks> The bug only occurs when one removes the last *-pmXXX for a given XXX (or perl-unversioned).
01:26  * drm agrees with vasi and dmacks
01:26 < vasi> :-)
01:26 < vasi> drm, what do you want to do about the package-switching issue (or non-issue?)
01:26 < dmacks> Wait, with three admins, shouldn't we have like 5 opinions about this?
01:27 < vasi> dmacks, don't mess up a good thing :-P
01:27 < dmacks> :)
01:27 < vasi> i'll try to harass TheSin into either "fixing" the issue or explaining to me *exactly* what it is
01:28 < vasi> assuming he can't/won't do either, what should we do?
01:28 -!- mbroeken [~broeken@hst32165.phys.uu.nl] has joined #fink
01:28 < vasi> cuz i REALLY don't want to keep developing 0.23.x, we have enough work without that
01:29 < drm> vasi: i will look at it
01:30 < vasi> i hate to be so impatient, because i know that there really is lots of work that everybody has
01:30 < vasi> but we've been waiting since April (?) on this
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01:31 < drm> yeah
01:31 < dmacks> If you're bored, you could try out the new cleanup code:)
01:31 < vasi> dmacks, i'm hacking on Package.pm for now :-)
01:32 < drm> BTW, if FinkCommander is going to need to be changed for 0.25, is anybody working on that angle?
01:32 < vasi> drm, it's just a change to the perl-script that FC uses
01:32 < vasi> and i'm looking at it
01:32 < dmacks> vasi: Okay, *fine* :)
01:33 < vasi> but it'll be at least a few days before i actually fix it
01:33 < mbroeken> drm: what's changing in 0.25 for finkcommander?
01:34 < mbroeken> i'm doing some fc work right noew
01:34 < vasi> mbroeken, basically 0.25 uses a new indexing scheme
01:34 < drm> vasi: one word of warning... playing with the Dependency Engine seems like the old game of pickup-sticks (or perhaps, building a house of cards)... one little tweak in the code can cause the entire thing to break unexpecdtedly :/
01:34 < vasi> drm, yes i know, that's why i'm doing a refactoring  rather than attempting to actually change anything
01:34 < dmacks> drm: dep-engine breakage is hardly "unexpected"
01:34 < vasi> drm, and this is pie-in-the-sky post 0.25 anyhow
01:35 < mbroeken> is there any chance of including fc 0.5.4 in the latest fink release?
01:35 < drm> mbroeken: whenever we release a fink installer for a binary distribution, we include the most recent FC
01:35 -!- cianhugh1s [~cianhughe@ti.cian.ws] has joined #fink
01:35 < vasi> mbroeken, basically we're optimizing fink's indexing for the typical uses....where only a few .info files are changed, and where only a few packages in fink's package database have to be accessed by fink
01:36 < mbroeken> cool
01:36 < vasi> mbroeken, but FinkCommander wants to get info about *every package* all at once
01:36 < vasi> which is now slower
01:36 < vasi> (as a tradeoff for some of the improvements)
01:37 < mbroeken> :(
01:37 -!- cianhugh1s [~cianhughe@ti.cian.ws] has quit [Client Quit]
01:37 < vasi> so we need to do some caching in the FC "get all package info" script, so it can do that efficiently
01:37 -!- shres [~sshreyas@202.144.86.147] has joined #fink
01:37 < vasi> mbroeken, should i keep you up to date on this? or just curious?
01:38 < mbroeken> vasi: i'm interested when things change that fc should know off
01:38 < mbroeken> otherwise just curious
01:38 < vasi> mbroeken, where can i email you?
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01:42 < msachs> Hm, after updating to HEAD, my build just gets "Failed: no package found for specification 'foo'!" for every package foo it tries to build.
01:45 < vasi> eeeh
01:46 < msachs> Probably because I'm doing weird stuff to modify the info files and have it use the new ones.
01:46 < vasi> can you revert to fink as of yesterday, and see if it still occurs?
01:47 < msachs> This isn't current HEAD.
01:47 < vasi> oh
01:47 < vasi> uh, as of when then?
01:47 < msachs> 2005-07-15
01:47 < vasi> hmm ok
01:47 < msachs> I suspect it's related to:
01:47 < msachs>    symlink("$rundir/pkginfo", "$FinkDir/fink/dists/buildfink");
01:47 < msachs>    $FinkConfig->set_param("Trees" => "buildfink");
01:48 < vasi> is there anything in /sw/var/lib/fink ?
01:48 < vasi> things to look for are index.db and finkinfodb
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01:48 < msachs> finkinfodb is there.
01:49 < vasi> also, are there any files (not dirs) in finkinfodb 
01:49 < vasi> (index.db is *not* there?)
01:49 < msachs> Nope, just index.db.lock.  finkinfodb has db.11.lock, and lots of files under db.11/
01:50 < vasi> weird about the index
01:50 < msachs> Well I am doing strange things.
01:50 < msachs> I do:
01:50 < msachs>    Fink::Package->forget_packages(2, 0);
01:50 < msachs>    Fink::Package->require_packages();
01:50 < vasi> as root?
01:50 < msachs> Yeah.
01:51 < msachs> And then I do that thing to set Trees, and then I do those two calls again.
01:51 < vasi> hmm, that *should* work ok, but the missing index.db is very weird
01:52 < msachs> Anything I can do to investigate?
01:52 < vasi> thinking
01:53 < vasi> um, ok try removing the finkinfodb (without the index it's useless)
01:53 < vasi> and also if there's a infolist in /sw/var/lib/fink, remove that too
01:53 < msachs> There was.
01:53 < vasi> then cause fink to re-index (just run as root anything that needs the PDB)
01:54 < msachs> I'll just restart my build.
01:54 < vasi> and then check if the index.db is there as it should be
01:54 < msachs> Okay, it's doing the "Reading package info..." at the top of the build"
01:54 < vasi> yeah, so that should take a min or two
01:54 < msachs> And now I have index.db
01:54 < msachs> And now it's gone.
01:55 < vasi> wtf
01:56 < msachs> I'll have it log the contents of /sw/var/lib/fink it various points, see where it disappears
01:56 < vasi> ok, so that should be the case after a forget_packages(2, 0)
01:56 < vasi> but then when you require, it should recreate
01:57 < msachs> Looks like that's not happening.
01:58 < vasi> there should NEVER be just infolist and no index though
01:58 < vasi> immediately after rm'ing the index, it rm's infolist
01:58 < msachs> k, I'll investigate
01:59 < vasi> (btw, there are some possible issues with forgetting and the requiring again, basically some things aren't re-initialized properly)
01:59 < msachs> Is there a different way I should be doing what I'm trying to do?
01:59 < vasi> msachs, i don't think so
02:00 < vasi> honestly, i'm about to refactor much of Package
02:00 < vasi> so if there's nothing urgent about this build, wait a few days
02:00 < vasi> or use fink 0.24.x for now
02:01 < msachs> Well, I just put in the extra logging, we'll see how hard this is to track down.
02:01 < msachs> I've had trouble with 0.24.x, problems with the 10.4 symlink I think it was.
02:02 < vasi> :-/
02:02 < vasi> not sure what to tell you then
02:02 < msachs> Well, we'll see how tricky this turns out to be.
02:03 < vasi> i don't want to go tracking down a bug in HEAD as of a few days ago, given that i'm about to change a bunch of stuff
02:03 < msachs> *nods*
02:03 < vasi> i'd rather change it first, and see if the bug remains :-)
02:04 < msachs> So it's going away after forget_packages, and not coming back with require_packages.
02:04 < vasi> i hate to say this, but WONTFIX
02:05 < msachs> k
02:05 < vasi> either wait a few days (hopefully just a few!), or use another version of fink that works for you
02:05 < msachs> I'll try reverting to branch_0_24
02:05 < vasi> sorry! :-(
02:05 < msachs> No worries.
02:05 < vasi> ok, i'm off now, it's late in EDT
02:05 < vasi> take care
02:05 < msachs> night-o!
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04:53 < dalibor> hmm, is there some way to persuade mac os x us extended keyboard bindings to use "a etc. latexy bindings rather than the alt incantations?
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06:18 < robilad> hmm, i guess ukelele could help there
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09:07 -!- You're now known as RangerRick
09:20 < akh> "This system is supported and tested".  That makes me feel so much better.  ;-)
09:20 < RangerRick> :)
09:22 < akh> hmmm...it's still a mystery to me why "cleanup" needs to index the shlibs database.
09:23 < akh> I guess it must just call 'index'
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11:06 < cirdan> hmm
11:07 < akh> hmm?
11:11 < TheSin> ahhhh haaaa
11:11 < TheSin> naaawww
11:11 < TheSin> hmmm
11:11 < TheSin> :D
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11:48 < drm> howdy, RangerRick
11:49 < cirdan> mornin
11:50 < drm> cirdan, do you know how to tell if a library has been prebound or not?
11:50 < cirdan> umm
11:50 < cirdan> otool magic
11:50 < cirdan> pogma knows, but i have forgotten
11:52 < drm> yeah, its otool
11:52 < drm> thanks
11:52 < drm> (otool -hV)
11:52 < cirdan> k
11:52 < cirdan> i thought it was -h, but it didnt look right :-)
11:55 < drm> bbl
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12:23 < dmacks> akh: the fink startup code contains a list of requirements for each mode. There's only one bit there for "need databases": it triggers loading of both shlibs and pkg databases.
12:27 < dmacks> Same reason 'fink fetch' requires the shlibsdb
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12:30 < dmacks> Someone could go through Engine.pm and adjust the "need databases" flag in %commands and the $pkgflag handler in sub process{} to load only the db(s) actually needed.
12:34 < dmacks> pogma: Are the Set*:gcc-3.3 flags needed for cctools-extra? Some of {10.3,10.4T}/{stable,unstable,bootstrap HEAD,bootstrap-branch_0_24} have it, some don't.
12:35 < dmacks> It was added to at least some of stable|unstable, so I propagated it to the bootstrap pkgs, then you removed it from some of those bootstrap pkgs. What's the Right Way?
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13:28 < mrcucmber> would /sw/var/db/pgsql/data be the sort of standard place to initilize my postgres database?
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13:38 < akh> dmacks: Ah
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13:51 < dmacks> akh: That bit of the requirements vector is not quite implemented correctly either. Looks like sometimes we say "no, don't need pdb" then within the cmd we load the pdb.
13:52 < akh> Yeah, that would seem a bit wrong, wouldn't it?
13:52 < dmacks> With the new über-fast indexing, no reason to delay on the off chance "fink list" somehow doesn't actually need to know about packages.
13:53 < dmacks> (I guess it was a nicety so that "fink list --help" didn't take 45s to load the pdb)
13:53 < cirdan> ?beer-fast!
13:53 < dmacks> cirdan: :)
13:54 < dmacks> u-beer-fast!
13:55 < cirdan> woot!
13:55 < dmacks> Or is this some kind of wacky religion, such as college, where one has to eat nothing but beer?
13:55 < cirdan> hehe
13:55 < cirdan> guiness!
13:55 < cirdan> has somehting from every food group :-)
13:56 < akh> ?  It's good and all, but where's the meat?
13:56 < cirdan> in the spam
13:56 < cirdan> :-)
13:56 < cirdan> somewhere...
13:56  * dmacks doesn't remember seeing "CO2 widgets" in the food pyramid.
13:57 < dmacks> (sorry, N2)
13:57 < cirdan> hehe
13:59 < mrcucmber> would /sw/var/db/pgsql/data be the sort of standard place to initilize my postgres database?
14:00 < akh> dunno--I think I only have it installed as a dependency for something else.
14:11 < dmacks> "Dear fontconfig: the freetype2 versioning-incompatibiliities clusterfsck is not a good development model to follow"
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14:57 < drm> RangerRick: you around?
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15:00 < akh> Kind of looks like "not really".
15:00 < drm> yeah 
15:01 < newmanbe> It is the great pleasure that I have the honor to give akh the wordiness award for using more words than are needed. Have a good time celebrating this award that brings great happiness.
15:01 < akh> heh--I deserved that, didn't I?  :-)
15:02 < RangerRick> drm: yeah
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15:03 < drm> rangerrick: so postgresql80 doesn't compile when i use g++-4.0 instead of g++-3.3 ... and the package is sufficiently complex that i can't really see what's going on
15:03 < RangerRick> drm: ok, I'll see if I can figure out what's going on
15:03 < drm> rangerrick: one possibility is that postgresql and friends can all remain at g++-3.3 for a while in the 10.4 tree
15:04 < drm> so long as its a closed group of related packages, and you are aware that they would all have to be upgraded together
15:04 < drm> rangerrick: if you want to look at it, its a bit tricky: you need to reinstall fink while the "FINK_NOTRANS envirnment variable is set
15:05 < RangerRick> ok
15:05 < RangerRick> I honestly don't know when I'll have time to look at it
15:05 < RangerRick> but it probably won't be soon
15:05 < drm> rangerrick: this will make a symlink from 10.4-T to 10.4 and switch cmopilers
15:05 < RangerRick> real life and work are reasonably busy  :)
15:05 < drm> rangerrick: ok, maybe i'll go with this other method of forcing it to remain g++3.3 then
15:05 < RangerRick> and I'm a little depressed after looking at the amount of work I'll have to do to get kde in stable  :)
15:05 < drm> real life? work? what are those? :)
15:05 < RangerRick> there are things that need to be moved that I really don't think should be yet
15:06 < RangerRick> freetype219 and all it's baggage, glib2, python24
15:06 < akh> ewww
15:06 < drm> rangerrick: nah, its all a conspirace, i heard (jk)
15:06 < RangerRick> hah
15:06 < drm> conspiracy, even
15:06 < RangerRick> I've heard that, but not seen the e-mail itself
15:06 < akh> I'm sure vasi trashed it.
15:07 < akh> Unless he found it sufficiently amusing, that is.
15:08 < drm> well, maybe you can recruit some helpers... how about an email to fink-devel explaining the list of stuff that needs to be tested, improved, and moved?
15:08 < RangerRick> yeah
15:08 < newmanbe> !lart Mozilla for gzipping a disk image
15:08  * Melian smacks Mozilla up side the head with a clue-by-4 for gzipping a disk image
15:08 < newmanbe> !lart Mozilla for using a disk image
15:08  * Melian brandishes Excalibur! "With this sword, I vanquish thee, Mozilla!" and lops off Mozilla's head for using a disk image
15:08 < RangerRick> that's on my TODO, but I'll have to spend an hour just putting together the list, and haven't steeled myself to it yet  :)
15:08 < RangerRick> it's one of those things you look at and just go "ah, fuck it"  :)
15:08 < drm> well, add that hour to the TODO :)
15:09 < drm> TODO: add item to TODO
15:11 < newmanbe> !lart the Mozilla people for breaking Gopher in DeerPark.
15:11  * Melian shoves a crumpet down the Mozilla people's throat, happy now?! Huh? Want some JAM with that? for breaking Gopher in DeerPark.
15:11 < newmanbe> That does not grammatically work.
15:11 < RangerRick> That is not grammatically.
15:12 < newmanbe> Good thing Melian is a bot and cannot be emmbarressed.
15:12 < drm> both of my grammatically deceased
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15:12 < akh> heh
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15:15 < newmanbe> Gah, reporting bugs for DeerPark (beta-version of Firefox is a hassle).
15:15 < drm> bbl
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15:18 < akh> And they killed gopher?
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15:33 < dmacks> *grr* stupid pkg-config introduced backwards-incompatible changes.
15:33 < RangerRick> wtf?
15:34 < akh> They're joining the fontconfig and freetype2 bandwagon, then?
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15:35 < dmacks> 0.18 added support for new features in .pc files, so if a pkg uses the new stuff, an old-version pkg-config could give incorrect results.
15:35 < dmacks> Gonna hafta have any such pkgs %N-dev:Depends:pkgconfig>=0.18 I guess.
15:35 < akh> yup
15:37 < dmacks> Or "just" rename the pkg "pkg-config" (which is something they did upstream also(!) and do a sitewide upgrade to all of fink.
15:37 < akh> Icky
15:38 < dmacks> Of course all this is not an issue yet, b/c 0.18 doesn't work on OS X at all.
15:38 < akh> Putting the cart before the horse, then?
15:39 < akh> (manure cart)
15:39 < dmacks> As everyone here can attest, I'm the master of premature optimization and second-guessing.
15:40 < akh> Not always a bad thing as long as surprises don't push things out of your optimization scope.
15:41 < dmacks> Objects in my rear-view mirror are exactly where they appear to be:)
15:46 < akh> But are they the right size? ;-)
15:47 < akh> wait--brain fart there--nm
15:47  * akh clearly didn't have coffee at all today.
15:50 < akh> grr...+0.0.2 version upgrade for xcircuit
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16:01 < vektor> Is there something I need to install to get direct GL rendering with xfree86 from fink?
16:01 < vektor> Currently, it's using MESA and is quite slow. :)
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16:04 < vasi> i think Xorg or Apple X11 have it, not sure
16:05  * akh checks console.log
16:05 < akh> Yeah--looks like it.
16:05 < vektor> I know that Apple X11 has it (I had it working before), and I have heard that Xorg does.  Do you mean that xfree86 from fink cannot support it?
16:06 < vasi> you can get xorg from fink
16:06 < vektor> I figured there may be some version of libGL I need to install separately or something.
16:06 < vektor> vasi: But I would have to compile it -- which takes a long time and makes my laptop quite hot and drains its battery ;)
16:06 < vektor> My impression is that there are no binary packages for Xorg.
16:06 < akh> Well, no "official" ones, anyway.
16:06 < vasi> :-)
16:07 < vektor> Are there unofficial ones you can point me at?
16:08 < vasi> i had some of mine up before, but the bandwidth is a bit heavy
16:08 < vektor> That's OK, I'll make do without for now.  Thanks for your help.
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16:09 < dmacks> Made the streaming pr0n too jittery?
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16:09 < akh> mmm...jittery pr0n
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16:26 < cirdan> hmm
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16:38 < dmacks> According to -commits, vasi is also known as Dave Morrison.
16:38 < vasiAway> uh oh, did i do that?
16:39  * dmacks thinks "vasi" isn't really a person, just a pseudonym everyone uses to remain semi-anonymous.
16:39 < vasiAway> heh, oh it's drm's fault
16:39 < vasiAway> everyone wants to be me :-)
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17:41 -!- You're now known as RangerAway
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18:55  * zizban blinks. Fingolfin was here?
18:56 < zizban> bbl dinner
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19:15 < dmacks> Is anyone from Todai here?
19:17 < dmacks> Conversely, has anyone gotten any response from emailing them in the past few weeks?
19:40 < dmacks> Yeah, didn't think so:(
19:43 < newmanbe> Todai people: Did not respond to inquiry on the magical Fink continum
19:45 -!- akh [~akhansen@68-118-244-23.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #fink
19:46 < newmanbe> akh: Have you heard from teh Todai people recently?
19:46 < akh> nope
19:47  * newmanbe makes a script that asks everyone who joins.
19:47 < akh> heh
19:52 < akh> we could add it to the topic, too. ;-)
19:52 < akh> (probably not)
19:53 < newmanbe> Add me as a ten on the access list and I will. ;)
19:53 -!- vasiReallyAway is now known as vasi
19:53 < vasi> i don't even understand half the stuff on the topic
19:54 < vasi> feh
19:54 < akh> "Carina" is because cirdan wanted the 0.24.x releases to be constellations,
19:54 < newmanbe> Blame cirdan.
19:54 < dmacks> vasi: "Latest" means "most recent", "most advanced", or "highest version" hth:)
19:54 < vasi> dmacks, wow now i get it!
19:54 < vasi> but what's a faq? :-P
19:54 < dmacks> Dunno
19:54 < akh> And a "question" is a means to acquire knowledge, but that's not important right now.
19:55 < newmanbe> And the last item is an inside joke that you aren't allowed to be in.
19:55 < dmacks> "What's a FAQ?" and "Where's the FAQ?" are discussed in the FAQ.
19:55 < vasi> i thought a "question" was a way to annoy developers
19:55 < akh> http://fink.sourceforge.net/faq/#catch-22.php
19:55 < akh> (eh--bad fake URL)
19:56 < akh> mmm...xorgization of my Debian box continues...
19:56 < newmanbe> From source?
19:56 < newmanbe> You're not a real Debian user then.
19:56 -!- hennker [~flullup@dsl-213-023-249-225.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["leaving"]
19:57 < akh> newmanbe: Nah--I apt-got it.
19:57 < newmanbe> You a *shudder* developer.
19:57 < akh> (them, actually)
19:57 < newmanbe> They have xorg?
19:57 < newmanbe> Took them long enough.
19:57 < akh> Yup.
19:57  * newmanbe goes off to find it.
19:57 < akh> I'm hoping for KDE 3.4 about the time we have 3.6.
19:58 < newmanbe> There it is, xserver-xorg
19:58 < newmanbe> It has a funny version...
19:58 < akh> yah
19:58 < vasi> i've always pronounced it "ex-org" and now i hear all these people saying "zorg"
19:58 < newmanbe> DFSG, Debian Free Software Guidlines something or other?
19:58 < vasi> is there a correct way?
19:59 < akh> vasi:  I go for "korg"
19:59  * newmanbe says it x.org .
19:59 < vasi> you say the "dot"?
19:59 < akh> ex-dot-org
19:59 < newmanbe> Yes.
19:59  * dmacks says "ex-org" also.
19:59 < vasi> ex dot org six dot nine dot zero
19:59 < dmacks> Wow, pyobjc-pyXX is a crappy build process:/
20:00  * vasi goes to hurt his brain more while thinking about indexing
20:00 -!- vasi is now known as vasiOuch
20:00 < dmacks> How do you pronounce "http://slashdot.org/.htaccess" ?
20:01 < vasiOuch> i always thought they should make a .dot TLD
20:01 < akh> dot-khut-access.
20:02 < newmanbe> h-t-t-p colon forward-slash forward-slash slashdot dot org forward-slash dot h-t access
20:05 < vasiOuch> just so we could have aich-tee-tee-pee colon slash slash slash dot dot dot 
20:05 < dmacks> Yup
20:05 -!- Murr [~neeri@A17-202-20-71.apple.com] has quit ["Quit"]
20:05 < dmacks> vasi: Max is nearly done syncing the mirrors. pogma hasn't respnded yet.
20:06 < dmacks> (I did all the packages modulo SetCC:gcc-3.3 flags, which I don't understand)
20:06 -!- akh is now known as akh_getting_dinn
20:06  * dmacks had free dinner...."thanks, undergrad summer intern program!"
20:11  * newmanbe commands RangerAway to kill Debian Qt/KDE Maintainers, Christopher L Cheney, Riku Voipio and Christopher Martin and take their places.
20:13 -!- zizban [~chris@24-52-0-219.sbtnvt.adelphia.net] has joined #fink
20:18 -!- dmacks is now known as dmacks_away
20:22 < newmanbe> Fink needs a marketing team: http://www.gnome.org/
20:23 < zizban> why would gnome market for us?
20:24 < newmanbe> No, we could steal that graphic. :-p
20:24 < zizban> lemme go see this 
20:25 < zizban> you mean the one with the person yelling and the other one blowing a kiss?
20:26 < newmanbe> Yeah.
20:26 < zizban> we could do better
20:26 < zizban> not me, since I can't draw, but someone more tlaneted :)
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20:46 < akh_getting_dinn> newmanbe: how's killing KDE upstream going to solve anything.
20:46 -!- akh_getting_dinn is now known as akh
20:47 < newmanbe> No, he would killall the KDE maintainers for Debian.
20:47 < newmanbe> Then he would take over their jobs.
20:47 < newmanbe> Then he would slow the rotation of the Earth and make the day longer.
20:48 -!- rudy__ [~rudy@ip68-224-184-250.hr.hr.cox.net] has quit []
20:49 < zizban> and where does "get kde into stable" fit in?
20:49 < newmanbe> It doesn't/
20:49 < newmanbe> Kill Fink and Mac OS X and switch to Debian! Muahahaha!
20:50 < zizban> heh
20:50 < zizban> I am typing on Debian right now
20:50 < newmanbe> I could be typing on a Debian across the room right now.
20:50 < newmanbe> But the I couldn't be talking to you.
20:50 < newmanbe> Because it does not have a NIC.
20:51 < zizban> my mac and my pac are side by side
20:51 < zizban> my apple cinema display in front, sgi monitor to thr right
20:52 < newmanbe> Do not be scared: Grub is better. You will like it! YOU WILL NOT GO BACK!
20:52 < newmanbe> Okay Debian people.
20:53 < newmanbe> But, they're right you know.
20:53 -!- baba [~baba@YahooBB220041000208.bbtec.net] has joined #fink
20:53 < newmanbe> bab!
20:53 < newmanbe> baba!
20:53 < zizban> I only run debian on this pc, sometimes soalris
20:53 < zizban> solaris even
20:54  * newmanbe has Debian and FreeBSD on it.
20:54 < baba> manbe!
20:54 < newmanbe> I will probably replace FreeBSD with something more interesting.
20:54 < zizban> I was running freebsd for a while, it was cool. I am just trying out a wm that doesn't run on it
20:55  * newmanbe is looking at GNU Hurd.
20:56 < newmanbe> Or Plan 9.
20:56 < zizban> Gnu Hurd is useless
20:56 < zizban> there is a plan 9 live cd around
20:56 < zizban> I booted into ti but couldn't figure out how to make it useful
20:56 < newmanbe> Yeah, but a lot of people say that about FreeBSD too.
20:56 < zizban> but Hurd IS useless
20:56 < newmanbe> Eh, ask Leimy.
20:57 < newmanbe> I was actually going to use Debian GNU/Hurd.
20:57 < zizban> it may be usefull in a few years. it has great tech
20:58 < newmanbe> Does the great zizban have any thoughts on Debian GNU/Hurd?
20:58 < cirdan> debian is a pleasure to admin...
20:58 < cirdan> not always to use...but to admin
20:58 < cirdan> :-)
20:58 < newmanbe> cirdan: Of course it is.
20:58 < zizban> I never really looked at Debian Gnu/Hurd
20:59  * cirdan neither
20:59 < zizban> if it's debian, it's bound to be interesting, at least
20:59 < newmanbe> It has packages, including my preferred WM.
20:59 < zizban> which is?
20:59 < newmanbe> fluxbox
20:59 < cirdan> twm
20:59 < cirdan> :-p
20:59 < cirdan> fvm65!
20:59 < cirdan> erp 95
20:59 < zizban> heh
21:00 < akh> back in the day, fvwm95 was the shit.
21:00 < zizban> hmmm, I dont really have a favorite wm, depends which os I'm using
21:01  * cirdan usually just sits in /bin/bash
21:01 < cirdan> but kwin isn't too bad on my box
21:01 < cirdan> ;-)
21:02 < zizban> :)
21:02 < zizban> on linux, it's usually mwm
21:02 < newmanbe> Hey! It was just last week (I think it was last week...) that I was using kwin and friends!
21:02 < newmanbe> I think I'm making progress.
21:02  * newmanbe would it in /bin/zsh .
21:02 < zizban>  
21:02 < zizban>  
21:03 < newmanbe>  
21:03 < zizban> dropped keyboard
21:03 < zizban> on freebsd it's blackbox3
21:04  * cirdan whacks newmanbe over the head with ksh
21:04 < newmanbe> Oh, and nano is not a bad editor!
21:04 < newmanbe> Says the Debian Hurd people.
21:04  * newmanbe wonders if vi is bad then...
21:04 < newmanbe> I hope not.
21:04 < cirdan> no, emacks is
21:04 < newmanbe> lol
21:04 < cirdan> emacs == evil
21:04 < zizban> emacs rocks
21:05 < zizban> well xemacs rocks
21:05 < zizban> command emacs is evil
21:08 < newmanbe> Hmm, could someone please try running 'which vi'?
21:08 < zizban> on os x?
21:08 < newmanbe> Yeah.
21:08 < zizban>  /usr/bin/vi
21:08 < zizban> thats all I get
21:09 < newmanbe> !lisppaste
21:09 < Melian> You can use lisppaste to paste errors at http://paste.lisp.org/new/fink , instead of flooding the channel.
21:09 < akh> umm 'which' only returns the first item in the PATH...
21:10 < newmanbe> I know.
21:10 < lisppaste> newmanbe pasted "which vi;which vim" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/10092
21:10 < akh> ah
21:11 < newmanbe> whereis vi works.
21:11 < newmanbe> But which gives me some odd shell-script-looking thing.
21:12 < akh> hmmm
21:12 < akh> which which
21:12 < newmanbe> lol
21:12 < newmanbe> It is built-into zsh.
21:13 < akh> ah
21:13 < newmanbe> /sw/bin/which works
21:16 < newmanbe> All my hopes in zsh have been dashed!
21:16 < newmanbe> Wait, no they haven't.
21:16 < newmanbe> All my hopes in Fink have been dashed!
21:16 < zizban> it took you this long? :P
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21:24 < zizban> of course akh's hopes in Fink were dashed the day he met me on on the fink-users mailing list
21:25 < akh> heh
21:25 < zizban> :)
21:25 < zizban> all those years ago
21:25 < zizban> not too many of us left from those days
21:25 < akh> Nope.
21:26  * akh started using Fink sometime after the switch from stow to dpkg.
21:26 < akh> But before automatic cvs updating.
21:26 < zizban> I remember when the switch was debated
21:27 < zizban> wow, stow, those were the days
21:27 < akh> Should have stayed with it.
21:27 < akh> ;-)
21:27 < zizban> :)
21:27 < zizban> I didn't know what stow or dpkg was in those days so I really couldn't argue
21:33 < akh> Eh, who needs package management, anyway?
21:33 < zizban> does anyone actually use stow?
21:34 < akh> I do on my Linux box.
21:34 < zizban> to manage packages?
21:34 < akh> Yeah--I've got a few things that I run that don't have debs or rpms.
21:34 < zizban> ah, neat
21:51 < newmanbe> akh: You should make the debs!
21:52 < akh> Maybe.
21:52 < akh> haven't had time to comprehend the Debian build process.
21:52 < newmanbe> s/Maybe./Of course I will./g
21:53 < newmanbe> ;-p
21:54 < newmanbe> Nah, just use Fink to make the debs. :)
21:54 < akh> Yeah, but there's that whole cross-platform cross-OS thing...
21:55 < newmanbe> Make everyone install Fink to use it.
21:55 < newmanbe> Then the whole wide world will be using Fink!
21:57 < pogma> debian has the right idea, make binaries for everything and make it hard to figure out how to build from source
21:58 < pogma> fink should be complex/stupid/slow
21:58  * pogma probable needs more coffee :)
21:59 < newmanbe> !make pogma coffee
21:59  * Melian brews a nice hot cup of coffee for pogma
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22:04 < akh> That _is_ one thing the rpm-based distros have going for them...spec files aren't that hard to parse.
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22:07 < zizban> and with luck, sometimes alien can make them into a usable deb
22:07 < akh> yup
22:07 < akh> And I do that when I can...
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22:59 -!- dmacks_away is now known as dmacks
22:59 < dmacks> pogma: did you see my msg from ~11 hrs ago?
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23:43 < dmacks> drm: Does cctools-extra need the SetCC:gcc-3.3 stuff? Among HEAD/branch_0_24/unstable/stable 10.3/10.4T there's no consensus.
23:44  * dmacks so confoozed.
23:46 < drm> i added those things during early days of 10.4 builds... many of them subsequently became unnecessary
23:47 < drm> let me take a look at it
23:50 < drm> it builds just fine under gcc-4.0 in the 10.4 tree (under construction)
23:50 < drm> *without* the setcc crap
23:51 < dmacks> Mostly this was an out-of-sync-ness in the 10.3 bootstrap sets HEAD vs branch_0_24; so I turned to the 10.4T bootstrap set and the read dists for consensus. Then I got confused and said "aw hell, I'll ask pogma or drm"
23:51 < dmacks> So it can go in all cases for that pkg?
23:51 < drm> yes
23:52 < dmacks> You wanna, or should I?
23:52 < drm> be my guest *S*
23:53 < dmacks> Is there gonna be a mint on my pillow?
23:53 < drm> unless your g/f does that without my asking, um, no
23:53 < dmacks> heh
23:55 < dmacks> So BDepends:gcc3.3 can also go away, yes?
23:55 < drm> yes
--- Log closed Fri Jul 22 00:00:49 2005