--- Log opened Thu Jul 28 00:00:27 2005
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04:28 < AndreU> can someone help me with fink processing? 
04:29 < AndreU> during compiling of bundle-kde some error occured due a buildlock. How to proceed now?
04:29 < AndreU> install again?
04:29 < AndreU> reinstall, build or rebuild?
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08:34 < cirdan> g'morn
08:44 < akh> morning
08:45 < akh> !lart users who don't bother to read the (reasonably useful) error text in "conflicting packages" errors.
08:45 < akh> oops--but we get the gist.  ;-)
08:45 < akh> <insert lart here>
08:49 < akh> hmmm...if insanity involves expecting different results from performing the same action and the <=0.24.x build dependency handler requires you to repeat an install command...
08:50 < AndreU> hey akh :-)
08:50 < akh> hi
08:50  * AndreU is still compiling KDE
08:50 < akh> No surprise there.
08:50 < akh> It's a long and tedious build.
08:50 < AndreU> jepp
08:52 < akh> Some have even gone crazy and accuse RangerRick of conspiring to suppress KDE binaries.
08:53 < AndreU> I know, read 
08:53 < AndreU> it yesterday
08:54  * akh wonders if they sat at the terminal the whole time watching the text and just went mad.  ;-)
08:54 < AndreU> but why is RangerRick suppressing the KDE binaries?
08:54 < AndreU> :-)))
08:55  * AndreU is watching the terminal compiling since yesterday night
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09:03 < akh> The major flaw in that theory is that it's in his best interest to make binaries available and cut down on the mail traffic about it.
09:03 < akh> (it == build failures)
09:03 < akh> _He'd_ have to be insane to do that.
09:05 < AndreU> if KDE would build it would be fantastic!
09:06 < akh> I'm not sure how many people have had problems--I built it without much difficulty.
09:08 < akh> And it only took 3 days instead of 4 on Tiger.
09:08 < cirdan> w00t to teh new linker
09:08 < cirdan> !woot
09:08 < Melian> woot!
09:09 < cirdan> pretty good if it cuts a day off kde ;-)
09:09 < akh> yah
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09:12 < AndreU> hm, did not install the new XCode from Tiger cause I was afraid it would not compile
09:12 < AndreU> it was mentioned on the fink homepage
09:13 < AndreU> btw: "fink build" is not documented within the help
09:14 < akh> You're right--never noticed that before.
09:14 < cirdan> it's in man
09:14 < cirdan> not all commands are in -h
09:15 < cirdan> only the most common ones to users
09:15 < cirdan> and most users wiull never do fink build
09:15 < AndreU> how many more options are there?
09:15 < cirdan> man fink and see :-)
09:15  * AndreU looks in man
09:19 < AndreU> update is missing in man?
09:19 < cirdan>            Aliases: update, enable, activate, use
09:22 < AndreU> hm, many different expressions
09:37 < akh> That way everybody can use a different one and create confusion ;-)
09:37  * newmanbe creates even more confusion by comitting a competing info page. 8D
09:38 < cirdan> !opp newmanbe 
09:38  * Melian Mode change "+o newmanbe" on channel #fink by Melian
09:38 < cirdan> w00t!
09:38 < newmanbe> If Melian was +o , would that actually do something?
09:40 < newmanbe> That shouldn't be a /me either.
09:41 < akh> Or at least get rid of the last "by Melian"
09:43  * newmanbe goes off to install GNU Hurd.
09:54  * cirdan changes offices
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10:03 < AndreU> akh, newmanbe: confusing is generally good and keeps questions up :-)
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10:52 < akh> kalessin: (apropos my message and the build failure log about ghc on Tiger) I forgot to mention that I'm using XCode 2.1
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10:55 < kalessin> akh Ok.  I'm flipping through the log now.
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11:09 -!- Topic for #fink: Have a question? Check the FAQ: http://fink.sf.net/faq || Latest Installers: 0.6.4 (10.2), 0.7.2 (10.3), 0.8.0 (10.4) || Fink 0.24.7: Carina || Where Green porters get RED
11:09 -!- Topic set by cirdan [] [Wed Jul 13 15:13:47 2005]
11:09 [Users #fink]
11:09 [ Airo      ] [ cirdan        ] [ JosephSpiros] [ lisppaste] [ nkuttler  ] [ swix_  ] 
11:09 [ akh       ] [ Clef          ] [ kalessin    ] [ mcp      ] [ pnorman   ] [ uncon  ] 
11:09 [ AndreU    ] [ das_          ] [ kane-xs     ] [ mee_bot  ] [ pogma     ] [ usata  ] 
11:09 [ baba      ] [ eno-away      ] [ kane_       ] [ megahal  ] [ RangerAway] [ ZapataZ] 
11:09 [ beorn     ] [ gzl           ] [ kapowaz     ] [ Melian   ] [ regeya    ] 
11:09 [ BleedAway ] [ happy_broccoli] [ kito        ] [ muesli   ] [ ringerc   ] 
11:09 [ burns     ] [ hennker       ] [ Knghtbrd    ] [ Murrito  ] [ RLD_osx   ] 
11:09 [ cianhugh1s] [ htodd         ] [ KraMer      ] [ newmanbe ] [ runelind  ] 
11:09 -!- Irssi: #fink: Total of 44 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 44 normal]
11:09 -!- Channel #fink created Sun Aug  3 18:57:20 2003
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11:38 < akh> drm:  The whole gfortran/g95/gcc4 thread looks like there's massive confusion going on.
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11:42 < akh> I wonder if the gcc4 package on Tiger is just a legacy of the Panther-Tiger migration.
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12:09 < cirdan> umm
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12:21 < cirdan> !factinfo unstable
12:21 < Melian> unstable -- created by newmanbe <~newmanbe@512a5783083894f6.session.tor> at Thu Jun  9 18:01:16 2005 (48 days); it has been requested 14 times, last by newmanbe, 5d 18h 24m 49s ago.
12:23 < akh> why?
12:23 < akh> If the URL is bad, extreme measures are in order. ;-)
12:24 < cirdan> ?
12:25 < akh> (why were you asking about it)
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12:50 < drm> akh: well, jeff keeps updating gcc4
12:53 < drm> dmacks: regarding last night's discussion, my latest thought is that the swappy code should only be used automatically, if there is a .deb present... if not, the user will just get an error message (as currently happens) and will have to start the build over
12:53 < drm> i.e., we don't ask the question
12:54 < dmacks> drm: That makes sense.
12:54 < drm> i'll make the change in HEAD... i think it should be backported for 0.24.9 too
12:55 < drm> because once that change is in branch_0_24, i'll stop obejcting to moving 0.24.x to stable :)
12:55 < drm> dmacks: but i still need to think through what happens if the .deb does not exist locally, but is apt-gettable
12:56 < dmacks> I think current functionality is that "does the deb exist?" means "check locally, then check apt-get iff UseBinDist mode"
12:57 < dmacks> Can't think why this case should be different from that behavior.
12:58 < drm> good
12:58 < drm> just wanted to be sure, since i dont know the UseBinDist code at all
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13:03 < akh> drm:  ah--didn't check the commits myself on that.
13:04 < akh> (gcc4)
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13:30 < newmanbe> What
13:30 < newmanbe> 's all this business about bad URL's?
13:32 < newmanbe> Your all trying to keep a secret from me!
13:32 < newmanbe> You*
13:32 < newmanbe> Bah, I give up typing.
13:32 < newmanbe> !lart GNU Hurd for kernel panicing
13:32  * Melian beats the living hamstercrap out of GNU Hurd for kernel panicing
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13:34 < akh> newmanbe: /me was just wondering why cirdan was asking Melian re unstable.
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13:35  * akh figured it had to be bad news.
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13:43 < newmanbe> Hail cirdan! Bearer of bad news!
13:47 < dmacks> "hamstercrap"?
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13:58 < akh> dmacks: Must mean that the crap gets beaten out in tiny little units.
14:01 < dmacks> Okay, that makes sense.
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14:38 < cirdan> hey dmacks 
14:38 < cirdan> your cvs commit changed the changelog only, no code
14:38 < cirdan> what's up with that? ;-)
14:41 < akh> dmacks: more vte issues (not me--I've built every %r you've thrown at me)
14:42 < cirdan> heh
14:42 < akh> check -beginners
14:42 < chris01> mhmm... fink doesn't have a good reputation at the #svn channel... check out:
14:42 < chris01> http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_log_search/svn?search=fink&action=search
14:43 < chris01> I wonder what i could do to improve this...
14:43  * chris01 keeps thinking: "We need unstable bindist, we need unstable bindist..."
14:43 < cirdan> rm -rf #svn?
14:43 < chris01> he
14:43 < cirdan> chris01: or, have your package in stable :-)
14:44  * chris01 then starts thinking: "But svn-ssl won't be available via bindist anyhow..."
14:44 < chris01> cirdan: the problem is, that the ssl variants are no longer admitted to bindist...
14:44 < chris01> because of this openssl mess.
14:45 < cirdan> chris01: have #svn put an openssl clause in the license
14:45 < cirdan> :-)
14:45 < chris01> mh... ok. sure. 
14:45 < cirdan> simple, no?
14:45  * chris01 goes to #svn
14:46 < chris01> verrrrry simple.
14:46 < chris01> :)
14:46 < chris01> oh well...
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15:09 < newmanbe> cirdan: rm -rfv #svn would be more interesting.
15:11 < newmanbe> http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_log_search/svn?search=darwinports&action=search&timespan=&text=checked 
15:12 < newmanbe> They do seem to like DarwinPorts better.
15:13 < chris01> mhmm... yes.
15:13 < chris01> Is it my fault? :-S
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15:14 < dmacks_> 'cvs admin -o 1.1: #svn' would be more ironic:)
15:15 < newmanbe> !lart dmacks and his fancy CVS commands
15:15  * Melian beats dmacks and his fancy CVS commands into protomatter with the andromeda galaxy
15:15 < newmanbe> !lilosmite CVS
15:15  * Melian wallops CVS with a main rotation server that needs rehubbing.  It won't take long.
15:16 < dmacks_> vasi: Please tag release_0_24_8 so we don't get confused with drm's backporting and other stuff.
15:16  * newmanbe has the gub'erment shut down DarwinPorts by emphasizing it's illegal uses.
15:16 < dmacks_> DarwinPorts killed my father on two separate occasions. It's a terrrrerizt!
15:17 -!- vasi [~vasi@modemcable133.147-70-69.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #fink
15:17 < dmacks_> Wow, that worked and I wasn't even trying:)
15:17 < newmanbe> vasi: dmacks has orders for you.
15:17 < vasi> heh
15:17 < newmanbe> You are to illed my father on two separate occasions. It's a terrrrerizt!
15:17 < newmanbe> Oops.
15:18 < vasi> wtf?
15:18 < newmanbe> You are not to talk while I am trying to copy and past. :)
15:18 < dmacks_> Someone's having terminal cut'n'paste issues:)
15:18 < newmanbe> You are to tag release_0_24_8 so we don't get confused with drm's backporting and other stuff..
15:18 < dmacks_> (/me phrased it with a "please")
15:18 < newmanbe> But you please are too.. doesn't make sense.
15:19 < newmanbe> And that would have required more thinking to work the please in.
15:19 < vasi> tag it, or begin release process?
15:19 < dmacks_> If you think the tarball is reasonable, tag whatever-is-in-it.
15:19 < vasi> well we kinda have to do both at the same time anyhoo
15:20  * akh looks for a yet more obscure constellation for 0.24.8
15:20 < vasi> heh
15:21 < akh> Found one--and the first google hit for it was on the web page of a Fink contributor.
15:21 < dmacks_> I have a quick-fix for a cleanup bug that I can backport, drm's got the swappy code. But if the tarball is "pretty likely ready to go" may as well save those for .9.
15:22 < vasi> yeah, plus the fast-scanpackages stuff
15:22 < dmacks_> (tags can be moved later if we find something critically broken with the tarball)
15:23 < akh> vasi:  Too bad Recommends: doesn't really do anything.
15:23 < vasi> yeah
15:23 < dmacks_> (Max has already changed branch_0_24 since you tarred it)
15:24 < vasi> i think apt can be forced to use them, if you care
15:24 < vasi> (yeah, i saw max's sneaky perfidy)
15:24 < akh> Yeah, but I don't use apt that often.  ;-)
15:25 < dmacks_> So in conclusion, please tag what you tarred if you think the tar is good. Or something.
15:26 < dmacks_> Uh oh, massive amount of free beer just arrived. I'll try not to hack too much for the next few hours:)
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15:28 < vasi> lol
15:43 < vasi> oh woops, we haven't properly deprecated 10.2
15:47 < akh> Deprecate it with extreme prejudice. :-)
15:54  * akh is jealous of the "massive amount of free beer"
15:54 < akh> I'm lucky if I can even get my wife to go to the liquor store.
15:54 < newmanbe> GAAH! Why can't people read the FAQ!
15:56 < akh> Because they're lazy?
15:56 < akh> Or it's not in their language?
15:56 < newmanbe> Or because they like being annoying?
15:57 < newmanbe> I don't want to use Microsoft Windows to test the stupid scaner!
15:57 < akh> Heh
15:59  * akh has to use Windows to fax from my box at home--I've not as yet found a way to deal with my modem.
15:59 < akh> Usually I just say "screw it" and go with my Powerbook.
15:59 < akh> OTOH, the scanner I have at home doesn't talk to OS X.
16:00 < vasi> not even with sane or any such hack?
16:00  * akh is tempted to give it to my wife and spend the $75 bucks for a newer similar model that works just fine with OSX.
16:00 < newmanbe> Hmm, I could try the scanner with Mac OS X. But the scaner hasn't worked for a while.
16:00 < akh> vasi:  It worked _once_ with sane.
16:01 < newmanbe> But the scanner that I do have that works, doesn't work with sane.
16:01 < akh> I'd rather just give it to my wife, so that she can do her own scanning.
16:02 < newmanbe> It gets detected, but it doesn't work.
16:03 < akh> Not the old "you must be root to scan" thing, is it?
16:03 < newmanbe> It only get's detected as root, but I can't scan as root even.
16:04 < akh> hmmm...
16:10 -!- akh is now known as akh_gone
16:10  * akh_gone goes
16:12 < newmanbe> Auctioning off the nick akh!
16:12 < newmanbe> $0 going to newmanbe!
16:12 < newmanbe> Going once!
16:12 < newmanbe> Going twice!
16:12 < newmanbe> Going three times!
16:12 < newmanbe> Sold to newmanbe for $0!
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17:55 < zizban> I was trying to compile the simplekde that I saw on /. and got the weirdest error message I've seen in a long time.
17:55 < zizban> checking whether gcc is blacklisted... yes
17:55 < zizban> configure: error:
17:55 < zizban> This particular compiler version is blacklisted because it
17:55 < zizban> is known to miscompile KDE. Please use a newer version, or
17:55 < zizban> if that is not yet available, choose an older version.
17:55 < zizban> Please do not report a bug or bother us reporting this
17:55 < zizban> configure error. We know about it, and we introduced
17:55 < zizban> it by intention to avoid untraceable bugs or crashes in KDE.
17:57  * zizban wonders what a blacklisted ggc is
18:04 < cirdan> yo
18:04 < zizban> hey cirdan 
18:11 -!- jessealama [~user@c-24-118-133-58.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #fink
18:12 -!- jessealama [~user@c-24-118-133-58.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit]
18:32 -!- zizban [~zizban@24-52-0-219.sbtnvt.adelphia.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
18:41 -!- zizban [~zizban@24-52-0-219.sbtnvt.adelphia.net] has joined #fink
18:51 -!- kpaul [~kpaul@70.57.247.118] has left #fink []
18:51 -!- Clef [~Clef@69-167-25-3.stmnca.adelphia.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
19:00 -!- Murrito [~neeri@c-24-7-119-74.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["Quit"]
19:02 < newmanbe> Stupid conference.jabber.org .
19:03 < newmanbe> Making me rest the subject in all of the group chats.
19:03 < newmanbe> Or some of them.
19:06 -!- regeya [~shane@adsl-sp3-cdale176.micgi.com] has left #fink ["Leaving"]
19:08 < zizban> eh?
19:08 < newmanbe> Go about your bussiness.
19:14 -!- stephano [~stephano@adsl-66-127-55-211.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #fink
19:16 -!- stephano [~stephano@adsl-66-127-55-211.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit]
19:34 -!- geewz [~gregreede@ppp122-142.static.internode.on.net] has joined #fink
19:50 -!- Clef [~Clef@69-167-25-3.stmnca.adelphia.net] has joined #fink
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19:57 -!- spundun [~spundun@mermaid.isi.edu] has joined #fink
19:59 < spundun> I am getting the following error on startx ... AUDIT: Thu Jul 28 16:57:37 2005: 1028 XDarwin: client 1 rejected from local host
19:59 < spundun> Xlib: connection to ":0.0" refused by server
19:59 < spundun> Xlib: No protocol specified
19:59 < spundun> it used to work fine untile now...
19:59 < spundun> any idea what the problem is?
20:05 -!- geewz [~gregreede@ppp122-142.static.internode.on.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
20:05 < cirdan> .Xauth or something
20:06 -!- akh [~akhansen@68-118-244-23.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #fink
20:08 < spundun> cirdan: yeah I added X11forwarding to the sshd_config file
20:08 -!- Clef [~Clef@69-167-25-3.stmnca.adelphia.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20:08 < spundun> recently
20:08 < spundun> cirdan: you think thats the problem?
20:08 < pogma> ssh -Y
20:09 < cirdan> -X
20:09 < pogma> -Y
20:09 < cirdan> oh
20:09 < cirdan> nm
20:09 < cirdan> i always use -X and it works great
20:09 < cirdan> not for startx though
20:10 < spundun> but i am not sshing righ now... I am on my mac right now..
20:10 < cirdan> then ssh has nothing to do with it
20:10 < spundun> cirdan: right
20:10 < spundun> just that I made that change recently...
20:13 < lisppaste> Spundun pasted "startx problems again" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/10297
20:13 -!- spundun [~spundun@mermaid.isi.edu] has quit ["trying to see if reboot fixes it."]
20:13 -!- akh_gone [~akhansen@ldx3.psfc.mit.edu] has quit []
20:15 -!- baba [~baba@YahooBB220041000007.bbtec.net] has joined #fink
20:26 < akh> hmmm...he didn't come back and I've got the answer.
20:29 < cirdan> heh
20:29 < cirdan> rm -rf ~
20:29 -!- Clef [~Clef@69-167-25-3.stmnca.adelphia.net] has joined #fink
20:30 < cirdan> hey Clef 
20:33 < zizban> hey Clef
20:36 -!- TheSin [~TheSin@iphost-64-56-130-194.edm.wiband.net] has joined #fink
20:36 < cirdan> TheSin.
20:37 < zizban> its a bird, it's a plane...no it's TheSin???
20:37 < cirdan> !lart TheSin 
20:37  * Melian teaches TheSin that M$ Access is a database. No, really, a database. A real live multi-user... well, ok, not multi-user, but a database. Yeah, that sounds right.
20:37 < cirdan> hah
20:38 < zizban> heh
20:38 < zizban> I have to teach that beast next week
20:38 < TheSin> hey guys
20:41 < TheSin> later guys :P back to vacation :D
20:41 -!- TheSin [~TheSin@iphost-64-56-130-194.edm.wiband.net] has quit [Client Quit]
20:41 -!- spundun [~spundun@mermaid.isi.edu] has joined #fink
20:41 < spundun> ok rebooted.. but still the same problem
20:44 < akh> spundun:  Try "rm ~/.Xauthority ; touch ~/.Xauthority"
20:45 < akh> zizban: That sounds...fun?  Nah, that's not it...
20:45 -!- beorn [~beorn@203.187.191.132] has quit []
20:47 < spundun> akh: that did it... thanks a lot... but whats going on over here?
20:48 < akh> Not sure--I get that every so often when I play around with changing X servers and stuff like that.
20:48 < spundun> akh: hmmm
20:49 < vasiGone> !seen TheSin
20:49 < Melian> thesin <~TheSin@iphost-64-56-130-194.edm.wiband.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #fink, 7m 49s ago, saying: 'later guys :P back to vacation :D'.
20:49 < vasiGone> aw shit, he just left
20:49 < vasiGone> it's like i have an anti-summon ability
20:49 < spundun> akh: I enabled X11 forwarding in /etc/sshd_config recently
20:52 < akh> spundun: I don't know if that's connected or not.  People have said they get errors like this especially on laptops because the hostname can change when you move from location to location while the computer's asleep.
20:53 < akh> I get it on my fixed IP desktop, too, though.
20:53  * cirdan summons thesin
20:54 < zizban> teaching Access sucks, btw
20:54 -!- TheSin [~TheSin@iphost-64-56-130-194.edm.wiband.net] has joined #fink
20:54 < zizban> Its a bird, it's a plane...no it's TheSin???
20:54 < TheSin> hey vasi
20:55 < vasiGone> hey!
20:55 -!- vasiGone is now known as vasi
20:55 < akh> cirdan's summoning mojo is strong.
20:55 < zizban> powerful, that one
20:55 < TheSin> vasi, you get my email on yourcommit
20:55 < vasi> yeah...i just wanted to tell you that our plan for the switching is to release a 0.24.9 within a few weeks
20:55 < vasi> with the current switching code in CVS, plus a few other things left out of 0.24.8
20:55 < TheSin> congrats i think that will fix it, just need a new var to replace it before the deb install phase now
20:56 < vasi> er, you mean so we don't end up with a different set of final packages than the user asked for?
20:56 < TheSin> well if I start with say db3 installed
20:56 < TheSin> and something needs db4
20:57 < zizban> users? we don't do this purely for our own amusement?
20:57 < TheSin> it should install db4 during the build but at the end I should have db3 installed
20:57 < vasi> yeah, there are a couple of things that make that hard
20:57 < TheSin> so it shoudl switch it back after the deb is build
20:57 < TheSin> err built
20:57 < TheSin> and it needs to be after the deb is built for the suto shlibs
20:57 < cirdan> psst! your gf is comming! ;-)
20:57 < TheSin> in case it's a shlibs switch
20:57 < TheSin> hehe not yet :P
20:58 < vasi> 1) dpkg itself does the replacing, so we can't easily know "what was replaced?"
20:58 < TheSin> with dep switching (which is for builds) we can
20:58 < TheSin> if dpkg does the switch your right that can't be us
20:58 < TheSin> but for build conflicts and auto build dep switching we can
20:59 < vasi> and 2) the messages that we give the user at the start, about "packages foo will be installed" is wrong
20:59 < TheSin> since those are build only
20:59 < TheSin> is wrong indeed
20:59 < TheSin> that is why we need to switch it back
20:59 < TheSin> so that it won't be
20:59 < TheSin> since like 99% of the time it'll only be build deps being removed or swaped
20:59 < TheSin> it's not a big deal either way
20:59 < vasi> TheSin, for auto-build-dep-switching, we tell dpkg "install package foo1"....but we DON'T tell it "replace package foo2", it figures that part out on its own
21:00 < TheSin> right
21:00 < vasi> so this is more complicated, we would have to scan everything that could be replaced and see if it's there
21:00 < TheSin> it would mean doing an installed dump before and after 
21:00 < TheSin> and using diff
21:00 < vasi> hmm, lemme look at the code for a sec
21:00 < TheSin> since it's before the new pkg is installed
21:01 < TheSin> the only diff will be in the switch (unless we allow multi fink runs) then it's not worth it I think
21:01 < TheSin> tell me auto switching is fine
21:01 < TheSin> but I've had ppl ask me if I was plannign on switching it back after
21:03 < vasi> ok hold on a sec...why do we do real_install and not just pahse_activate?
21:03 < vasi> *phase
21:04 < vasi> cuz we do the is_present check doesn't help if there are dependencies!
21:04 < TheSin> not sure why I chose that
21:04 < TheSin> i wrote that section awhile ago now
21:04 < TheSin> I think for 0.24.0
21:05 < vasi> i'm thinking we should possibly 1) do only phase_activate and 2) only switch BuildDependOnly packages....then it's no big deal if we leave the user with a slightly different set of packages at the end
21:05 < TheSin> I agree, BUT!
21:05 < vasi> the alternative is 2) scan the replaces and then put them back
21:05 < vasi> but...?
21:05 < TheSin> if we start building everything against nossl pkgs
21:05 < TheSin> so all ssl-shlibs become -shlibs
21:06 < TheSin> and allow -ssl-shlibs at runtime
21:06 < vasi> ...
21:06 < TheSin> we will cut back on deferences and streamline autoshlibs and ssl pkging problems
21:06 < TheSin> just looking into the future
21:06 < TheSin> but for now I think it's best to do as you say
21:06 < TheSin> BOD and use activate
21:07 < vasi> can you clarify what you just tried to say? ;-)
21:07 < vasi> deferences?
21:07 < TheSin> cause we don't wanna slow fink down or add too much overhead between builds IMHO
21:07 < vasi> what's a deference?
21:07 < TheSin> well we weren't sure about auto shlibs being able to do
21:07 < TheSin> blah-shlibs | blah-ssl-shlibs
21:08 < TheSin> in case it was built with -ssl and produced a different deb
21:08 < TheSin> since it'll have extra symbols
21:08 < vasi> because your auto-foo only looks at the packages on the system, right?
21:08 < TheSin> and then using blah-shlibs would get runtime errors
21:08 < TheSin> yes
21:08 < TheSin> so if everything was built against none ssl libs
21:08 < TheSin> it would standardize it
21:09 < TheSin> and force ssl stuff to be dynamiclly looked up if avail
21:09 < vasi> ok, if it LINKS in -ssl, i don't think there should be extra symbols
21:09 < TheSin> now not all software will do this so it'll be upto the maintainers in fink or upstream to fix that stuff
21:09 < vasi> dynamic links
21:09 < TheSin> but it'll also fix our openssl license issue
21:09 < cirdan> TheSin: how?
21:10 < TheSin> since it won't directly depend on openssl-shlibs
21:10 < vasi> ok, we're talking about two different things again
21:10 < cirdan> vasi: umm, -ssl libs have extra symbols
21:10 < TheSin> it'll be a runtime dep if the lib is installed
21:10 < TheSin> well kinda vasi
21:10 < cirdan> TheSin: you are talking about weak binding and all
21:10 < TheSin> but what I'm saying is to use the auto replace code to force everything to build against non ssl libs
21:11 < cirdan> apps need to be written to be aware of that
21:11 < TheSin> so setting a BOD flag would break that
21:11 < TheSin> but it's something we could remove if we ever do that
21:11 < cirdan> TheSin: then no apps would have -ssl in the bindist
21:11 < vasi> er...i've never had a problem replacing an -ssl lib with a non-ssl lib, have i just been lucky?
21:11 < TheSin> so really it's very premature to deal with it now I think
21:11 < TheSin> vasi, I haven't either
21:11 < cirdan> vasi: i guess so
21:11 < TheSin> but we only need one to break auto shlibs
21:12 < TheSin> that is why me and drm where worried about it and didn't want to allow blah-shlibs | blah-ssl-shlibs in the Shlibs: fields
21:12 < cirdan> db* doesn't have extra symbols..
21:12 < TheSin> just incase
21:12 < cirdan> TheSin: well, non-ssl built can link to -ssl at runtime, but not the other way around i though
21:13 < cirdan> we'd need to nm some libs and see
21:13 < vasi> TheSin, hold on a sec....when i build foo, which BuildDepends on bar | bar-ssl....does auto-shlib-deps give it a Depends: bar-shlibs | bar-shlibs-ssl ?
21:13 < cirdan> but if there are no extra interfaces in the API, how can -ssl have features different from any non-ssl lib/pkg
21:14 < TheSin> vasi, it'll use what ever is in the Shlibs field of the -shlibs
21:14 < vasi> yeah, exactly...if there are different symbols, they're not symbols that any clients should be USING
21:14 < vasi> TheSin, so we *DO* need to put the | in Shlibs
21:15 < TheSin> and the Shilbs field of a -shlibs pkg makes the .shlibs files in /sw/var/lib/dpkg/info
21:15 < TheSin> vasi right
21:15 < TheSin> but that will make the deps
21:15 < cirdan> vasi: also some apps build different code is --enable-ssl is used
21:15 < TheSin> and if a maintainer doesn't allow switching it could limit software
21:15 < TheSin> like say I install lftp-ssl
21:15 < vasi> cirdan, but again no clients should be using the extra symbols
21:16 < TheSin> and it needs some -ssl-shlibs
21:16 < cirdan> vasi: why not? how are they to access the crypto code?
21:16 < TheSin> but then I want an other pkg that doesn't have an -ssl version
21:16 < TheSin> and it strictly depends on the none -ssl version
21:16 < TheSin> of the shlibs
21:16 < TheSin> I won't beable to install it
21:16 < TheSin> cirdan, if they are smart with dlopen and dlsym
21:17 < vasi> cirdan, usually the software will decide internally...i doubt many packages add/subtract from their API depending on ssl
21:17 < cirdan> TheSin: big if
21:17 < TheSin> oh totally I agree
21:17 < vasi> ie: if i call connect_to_url() in some random library, it should say "ooh this is https, i'll use ssl"....
21:17 < TheSin> vasi, some have different blocks of code that are enabled, not sure about symbols though
21:17 < TheSin> but it would be better if they all did it at runtime
21:18 < cirdan> vasi: i dunno. i always understood it as build a package linked against non-ssl lib, it can run with ssl or nonssl
21:18 < TheSin> but obviously that isn't true
21:18 < cirdan> build against -ssl, and it'll only run against -ssl
21:18 -!- beorn [~beorn@221.122.43.98] has joined #fink
21:18 < vasi> cirdan, if that's true than they should have different install-names!
21:18 < TheSin> cirdan, it depends on the software
21:18 < TheSin> if it's build against ssl
21:18 < cirdan> vasi: also don't forget about lib deps in the binary
21:18 < TheSin> and you remove the ssl libs
21:18 < cirdan> which are *way* different
21:18 < TheSin> it could be missing a symbol call for sure
21:18 < TheSin> others are smart enough to check first and skip if missing
21:19 < vasi> cirdan, which lib deps? you mean the linked libs?
21:19 < cirdan> yeah
21:19 < vasi> yeah, -ssl stuff should hack around that
21:19 < TheSin> if it's a static link this doesn't matter much
21:19 < vasi> see libggz-ssl or gnome-vfs2-ssl for an example
21:19 < TheSin> if it's dylib it SHOULD run with either
21:19 < TheSin> in a perfect world
21:19 < TheSin> but M$ is still on top so we know that isn't true :D
21:19 < cirdan> if libcrypto is missing, say, on an app built against the ssl lib and it's in otool -L, it needs to be there at runtime
21:20 < vasi> the idea is "don't put the ssl libs in libfoo.la", so other things link with them indirectly
21:20 < cirdan> no exceptions
21:20 < TheSin> and that is why me and drm want to no allow | in Shlibs fields
21:20 < cirdan> vasi: most things dont use a .la
21:20 < cirdan> they get lib deps from the libs they pull in
21:20 < vasi> cirdan, most things use libtool, and libtool uses .la
21:20 < TheSin> vasi is right
21:20 < TheSin> removing it from the .la s will fix lots of them
21:20 < vasi> cirdan, lemme give you an example
21:21 < cirdan> still, most != all
21:21 -!- baba [~baba@YahooBB220041000007.bbtec.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
21:21 < cirdan> by far
21:21 < TheSin> but apps that have ssl bits SHOULD dl open them at runtime
21:21 < vasi> we really have to discuss this with drm and pogma around
21:21 < vasi> cuz it's definitely a major packaging error if dependencies say something is ok, and it isn't
21:22 < cirdan> TheSin: think about how many apps there were on os x before we *could* dlopen dylibs
21:22 < vasi> dlopen is NOT necessary
21:22 < TheSin> vasi, that is the problem, we can't be sure and most maintainers don't test this, and obviously validator can't either
21:22 < vasi> in the vast majority of cases, some makefile/libtool/.la-fu can get around issues
21:22 < TheSin> so we figured best to be safe
21:22 < cirdan> hey, i'm just the devil's advocate :-)
21:22 < vasi> TheSin, we should talk to msachs
21:23 < cirdan> doing my best to poke holes in bad ideas
21:23 < vasi> he could add a checker to buildfink
21:23 < cirdan> he's afk
21:23 < TheSin> vasi, la is true for apps that link it and don't use any of the symbols
21:23 < vasi> which runs nm on libraries that "replace" each other
21:23 < vasi> and makes sure the exported symbols are the same
21:23 < TheSin> but if and app requires the symbols for extra functionally it should be it should use dl
21:23 -!- xhrl [~ThomasW@S0106000f3d5d5bed.vs.shawcable.net] has joined #fink
21:23 < TheSin> so it's not a buildtime thing and not a pkging issue
21:24 < TheSin> vasi, I agree
21:24 < vasi> er, maybe
21:24 < TheSin> if tha tis done it woudl be great
21:24 < TheSin> but both would need to be built
21:24 < vasi> ok, bring this up again when at least pogma and preferably drm are around
21:24 < TheSin> and we'd need to beable to install both at the same time and get a list and swap for the next list and diff em
21:24 < vasi> we need their expertise for this
21:25 < TheSin> totally
21:25 < vasi> because if it really is an issue with incompatible dylibs, then swapping is not really good enough, we need to do install-name fixes
21:25 < TheSin> I'm on vacation ATM and promised no work and/or OSS stuff
21:25 < vasi> i believe
21:25 < TheSin> but after that I'll bring it up, since we lack loging now :D
21:25 < vasi> well i'll bring it up myself then
21:25 < vasi> we have logging at meme.b9.com
21:26 < cirdan> !logs
21:26 < Melian> logs are at http://meme.b9.com/cview.html?channel=fink&date=today or http://fink.aquaflux.org (currently down), or http://hollowvoice.org/~ranger/irc_logs/
21:26 < vasi> ooh TheSin, there's something else i must bug you about :-)
21:26 < TheSin> k if you need anything vasi I'm reading mail
21:26 < TheSin> as you can see since I commented on your commit :D
21:26 < vasi> heh
21:26 < vasi> you maintain proftpd, right?
21:27 < TheSin> yup, working on a new build process for it
21:27 < vasi> *whew*
21:27 < TheSin> :P
21:27 < TheSin> same with php4/5 and apache2
21:27 < TheSin> gonna use variants
21:27 < vasi> my comment was basically "i want to add quotatab, but your build process is so screwed up i can't figure out how"
21:27 < TheSin> just still getting used to em though
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21:27 < cirdan> cool: http://kerneltrap.org/node/543
21:27 < TheSin> quotatab is fucked on OSX atm
21:27 < TheSin> I'm working on it with the proftpd maintainer
21:27 < cirdan> pureftpd!
21:27 < vasi> TheSin, i use it....i'm not sure if it actually works
21:27 < cirdan> :-)
21:28 < TheSin> it does work
21:28 < TheSin> but I can't build sql support for it
21:28 < TheSin> so it breaks all builds
21:28 < vasi> why can't you build it?
21:28 < TheSin> and the upstream author hates the OSX linker so I'm trying to find away that he'll accept
21:28 < TheSin> multi defs
21:28 < vasi> you already build a sql-support version, right?
21:28 < TheSin> because of a common header with a common struct
21:29 < TheSin> I'll get it though
21:29 < TheSin> with a new build system
21:29 < TheSin> so it only builds the one you want
21:30 < TheSin> just can't work on it till mid next week ;)
21:30 < vasi> do you have a partly-working info/patch?
21:30 < cirdan> gotta keep the gf happy
21:30 < vasi> :-)
21:30 < TheSin> no, I hate Info2 right now :P
21:30 < vasi> lol
21:30 < TheSin> breaks fink on me all the time :D
21:30  * cirdan does too
21:30 < TheSin> cause I do Info2: <<
21:30 < TheSin>   blah: <<
21:30 < TheSin> and it hates the spaces
21:31 < TheSin> so I spend more time fighting with that then anything
21:31 < vasi> TheSin, that's on my list of things-to-fix, please remind me later
21:31 < TheSin> it can't get fixed
21:31 < TheSin> cause it'll break old pkg managers
21:31 < TheSin> which is the piont of Info2
21:31 < TheSin> unless we go to Info3
21:31 < TheSin> :D
21:31 < vasi> we're gonna deprecate old-style heredocs
21:32 < vasi> i think that's the only thing it breaks
21:32 < vasi> i will bring it up with dmacks though
21:32 < TheSin> well it breaks the pkg engine
21:32 < TheSin> fink index
21:32 < TheSin> so then old finks can't update
21:32 < vasi> i think the "fix" we were considering previously is different from the fix i have in mind
21:33 < TheSin> so even if Info2 gets fixed to allow spaces it'll break old ones if a pkg like that gets commited before EVERYONE updates
21:33 < TheSin> :P
21:33 < TheSin> anyhow now I really have to go
21:33 < vasi> ok bye
21:33 < TheSin> I'm getting nagged :D
21:33 < TheSin> bbl though
21:33 < vasi> heh
21:33 < TheSin> in like a week :D
21:33 -!- TheSin [~TheSin@iphost-64-56-130-194.edm.wiband.net] has quit ["Client exiting"]
21:33 -!- dmacks [~dmacks@dmacks.active.supporter.pdpc] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
21:39 < vasi> aww crap b9 ain't working
21:42 < akh> hollowvoice probably is.
21:42 < akh> The admin is too much of a wacko-elitist to let it go down for long.  ;-)
21:43 -!- newmanbe [~newmanbe@4fa99481a27ea45b.session.tor] has quit ["leaving"]
21:45 < zizban> heh
21:45 -!- zizban [~zizban@24-52-0-219.sbtnvt.adelphia.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
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--- Log closed Fri Jul 29 00:00:07 2005