--- Log opened Sat Jul 30 00:00:17 2005
--- Day changed Sat Jul 30 2005
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07:07 < Fingolfin> so, still no reply from Sylvain Cuaz (zauc) regarding the sed package...
07:08 < Fingolfin> I mailed him several times that 4.1 is outdated, and that 4.1.4 fixes some bad bugs, even sent a fixed .info file; my last mail was to fink-devel with kind of an "ultimatum", saying that I'd update the package if he doesn't even give me a "beep" or any other signal that he's still alive...
07:09 < Fingolfin> so I am tempted to now simply update the .info in unstable CVS. However, this leaves the question what I should do regarding the maintainer field: Should I "steal" the package and take it over? Or simply add a comment which explains that Sylvain is not repsonsible for the 4.1.4 package? Hrm
08:00 < pogma> steal it
08:00 < pogma> or set it to none fink-devel@...
08:00 < pogma> imo :)
08:00 < pogma> oops, that was an hour ago!
08:00 < pogma> Fingolfin: hey
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08:38 < chor> How do I make x so that the "os x" desktop is hidden?
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08:56 < Feanor> chor: what kind of X
08:57 < chor> xfree86
08:57 < chor> don't know what version, how do I check?
08:58 < Feanor> hm
08:58 < Feanor> if X11 is running rootless, switch to the X11 application and go into preferences
08:59 < Feanor> do something i forget and restart X11
08:59 < chor> don't have any preferences for x
08:59 < chor> where do I find that?
09:00 < pogma> X11.app or XDarwin.app ?
09:00 < chor> Ok. I start X using "startx" from the terminal
09:01 < vasi> er...there's some option for startx, but i forget
09:01 < vasi> try the forums at xdarwin.org?
09:02 < vasi> grrrr, did newmanbe just commit a klingon dictionary into the fink module!?
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09:23 < pogma> if so, remove him from avail
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09:54 < pogma> cripes, vasi is right, newmanbe committed new dirs experimantal/newmanbe to the fink module
09:54 < vasi> what on earth could make someone do that?
09:54 < pogma> newmanbe: please file a support request to sourceforge to get those removed
09:54 < vasi> newmanbe!!!!
09:55 < pogma> vasi: screw up, we've all done it
09:55 < vasi> i know, i know
09:55 < vasi> it's just weird
09:57 < pogma> kinda strange, I guess he was in the wrong dir at the wrong time
10:12 < newmanbe> What did I do?
10:12 < newmanbe> Oh that.
10:13 < newmanbe> But I shouldn't be able to write to anything but web/map and experimental. That's what get's me.
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10:18 < newmanbe> http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/fink/CVSROOT/avail?rev=1.72&view=markup <-- Says I shouldn't have been able to do that.
10:18 < vasi> uh, he's right i think
10:22  * Fingolfin mailed newmanbe about this issue yesterday already :-)
10:22 < Fingolfin> about the CVSROOT avail thing, that's odd indeed
10:23 < Fingolfin> maybe a bug in cvs_acls? hum
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10:24 < Fingolfin> as long as the bad file is around, we can just as well use it to test this ... :-)
10:24 < vasi> i guess!
10:24 < vasi> hehe
10:25 < pogma> newmanbe: please file the support request, still your screw up to fix :)
10:25 < Fingolfin> newmanbe: can you please try and modify that "bad" .info files of yours and see what happens when you commit the change?
10:25 < newmanbe> I already did.
10:25 < newmanbe> The bad one that's in the tracker?
10:25 < newmanbe> Or the one I tried to commit to experimental?
10:26 < Fingolfin> the one which *is* commited into the "fink" package
10:26 < newmanbe> The one I tried to commit to experimental. Okay.
10:26 < Fingolfin> can you modify it and then try to commit it? I wonder whether you'll get an error ...
10:26 < pogma> matches expeerimental, doesn't it, that commit
10:26 < Fingolfin> you *did* commit a file. Not to exeperimental, though, but rather you commited it to fink/experimental
10:26 < newmanbe> That's where I was trying to put it.
10:26 < newmanbe> I know.
10:27 < Fingolfin> pogma: yeah. but it should do a head match
10:27 < pogma> still matches the acl regex, right?
10:27 < pogma> ah
10:27 < newmanbe> No.
10:27 < Fingolfin> 	    $in_repo = 1, last if ($repos eq $j || $repos =~ /^$j\//);
10:27 < Fingolfin> note the ^
10:28 < pogma> noted :), 'scuse me, I must continue getting drunk now
10:28 < Fingolfin> no worries :-)
10:34 < Fingolfin> hm, our cvs_acls is identical with the sitedocs' cvs_acls, with the only change being my hack which adds $USER support to the avail file. Which isn't used anymore, it seems
10:35 < Fingolfin> OTOH, there is a newer cvs_acls out there, but the only thing it seems to add is support for branch specific access control
10:35 < Fingolfin> nifty, but shouldn't affect us
10:35 < Fingolfin> odd
10:35 < pogma> did newmanbe manage an update?
10:35 < Fingolfin> I don't see any over here...
10:35 < Fingolfin> newmanbe: did you try ?
10:36 < newmanbe> Hmm, in progress.
10:36 < pogma> bit like my drunkeness :)
10:37 < newmanbe> Look now.
10:37 < pogma> nothing changed yet
10:37 < newmanbe> It also said it's "Not sending email for imported sources." 
10:38 < pogma> sometimes stuff sounds bad, that does sound bad, hope that it is not
10:39 < pogma> what was the change that you committed?
10:39 < newmanbe> I imported exeperimental/newmanebe/finkinfo
10:40 < pogma> that was already there
10:40 < pogma> make a change to  muhaqwi-unix.info and commit it, please
10:41 < Fingolfin> you *imported* it ? ah
10:41 < Fingolfin> that's nonsense...
10:41 < Fingolfin> you should never ever import anything into one of our repositories
10:41 < pogma> Fingolfin: does not change the fact that he ought not be able to
10:41 < Fingolfin> you first get a checkout of e.g. "experimental" using "cvs checkout"; then you "cvs add" files in there, or edit existing files; and then you "cvs commit" them
10:42 < Fingolfin> pogma: not necessarily. An import works differently than a commit/add. It's possible that cvs_acls isn't working in this case (would be bad :-/)
10:42 < Fingolfin> newmanbe: I recommend reading a CVS tutorial
10:43 < pogma> betcha newmanbe is the first to find the cvs_acls bug :-)
10:46 < pogma> does an import call commitinfo and it fails to match ALL, or does it not get commitinfo called?
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10:49 < vasi> we should probably just disable import, there's no good reason to use it unless we add a new module
10:50 < pogma> threads on cvs add and cvs import and acls turn up lots on google
10:50  * pogma loses bet
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10:54 < pogma> can't disable cvs add
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11:01 < vasi> but add doesn't do anything without a commit
11:01 < vasi> drm, noticed the newest anomaly in fink cvs? :-/
11:02 < newmanbe_> Not AOL drm!
11:03 < drm> no
11:03 < vasi> newmanbe managed to import something from experimental into the fink module
11:04 < vasi> even though he has no perms for it
11:04 < vasi> pogma and Fingolfin seem to be investigating
11:04 < drm> vasi: regarding your memo, i've been bad about sending notification emails, but i agree that the timing should be after the .info file is released
11:04 < vasi> so i should send it?
11:05 < drm> yeah
11:05 < vasi> i'm on it
11:05 < drm> the other problem seems to be in good hands
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11:32 < timing> Hello, is it normal that amarok doesn't appear in my package list? even when i have unstable/crypto and unstable/main in my fink.conf?
11:32 < timing> http://fink.sourceforge.net/pdb/package.php/amarok
11:32 < timing> i have macosx 10.3.9
11:32 < timing> and fink version 0.7.2
11:32 < newmanbe> timing: Hello.
11:33 < timing> hi.
11:33 < newmanbe> You should be seeing it...
11:33 < newmanbe> Try selfupdating.
11:33 < timing> selfupdating?
11:33 < newmanbe> !selfupdate
11:34 < newmanbe> run fink selfupdate
11:34 < timing> okay what update method is the coolest?
11:34 < newmanbe> You'll want rsync.
11:34 < timing> okay :D
11:35 < timing> okay and what is it doing now?
11:35 < newmanbe> Getting information on new/updated packages.
11:35 < newmanbe> It might also build/download base packages that have been updated.
11:35 < timing> hmm but why doesn't it do it with fink update ?
11:36 < newmanbe> The man page for fink should tell you.
11:36 < timing> the manpage of fink is very small
11:37 < newmanbe> 357 lines is small?
11:37 < timing> hmm wait
11:38 < timing> you mean `man fink` ?
11:38 < newmanbe> Yes.
11:38 < Fingolfin> timing: "fink update" is just a synonym for "fink install". It looks at your *local* fink installations package list, and will update/install a package. However, we constantly update this package list *on our servers*. To fetch the latest list of packages (to simplify it a bit), you need to manually run "fink selfupdate"
11:38 < Fingolfin> an "update" and a "selfupdate" are two totally different things
11:39 < timing> ooohw
11:39 < timing> i thought i could use apt-get synta
11:39 < timing> x
11:40 < timing> apt-get update == fink selfupdate; apt-get upgrade == fink update;
11:41 < Fingolfin> nope
11:41 < timing> no??
11:41 < Fingolfin> apt-get update is indeed similar to fink selfupdate. The latter does more, though, it also updates certain essential core packages
11:42 < timing> cewl
11:42 < Fingolfin> "fink update" is the same as "fink install" and could be compared to "apt-get install"
11:42 < timing> okay thanx!
11:42 < Fingolfin> "apt-get upgrade" is roughly the same as "fink update-all"
11:42 < timing> pfieew, okay
11:42 < Fingolfin> mind you, all of this is "roughly". Refer to the "apt-get" and "fink" man pages for some more detail
11:44 < timing> now i see things like: 53  3828K  84   3701K     0    0  87987   0 0:1:02   0:0 
11:44 < timing> what is it doing now?
11:44 < timing> it looks unintresting
11:48 < vasi> that looks like curl downloading something :-)
11:49 < timing> hmm ugly
11:50 < vasi> usually it has something above it to tell you what those numbers mean?
11:51 < timing> yeah well that' out of my screen very fast :D
11:52 < vasi> if you scroll up just a tiny bit, it will stop auto-scrolling
11:52 < timing> yes i see .
11:52 < vasi> (i think....at least it does for me)
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12:35 < Fingolfin> pogma: BTW regarding sylvain / sed...
12:35  * Fingolfin wonders if we have any policy for (lack of) package maintanance... if a maintainer hasn't made a change to a .info file for months, doesn't answer emails, doesn't incorporate trivial fixes presented to him on a silver plate... then taking over a package is probably OK... I guess... ?
12:37 < Fingolfin> I am also irritated about Jeff Whitaker. He seems to not react at all to serious reports for ages. 
12:37 < Fingolfin> Of course, I often do the same, too :-). 
12:38 < Fingolfin> But usually when somebody sends me an .info file and says "Hey, this fixes this and that bug, it's a small change only", I take the 10-30 minutes to verify, test and checkin that fix... :-)
12:38 < Fingolfin> last tracker change by jswhit: 2005-01-07 17:50, on bug #1093705
12:41 < vasi> Fingolfin, we actually do have a policy
12:41 < vasi> discussed on -devel a while ago
12:41 < Fingolfin> ah OK. So, is the policy documented on fink.sf.net somewhere? 
12:41 < vasi> there were even a bunch of standardized emails that went out saying basically "hey, it looks like you're not active, are you still maintaining things?"
12:41 < vasi> it was only by email i think :-(
12:41 < vasi> search the archive
12:43 < Fingolfin> yeah, I know about those reminder mails; but that's not an "official policy" -- to me, "official policy" means it's on the website under "Developer policy" or so :-)
12:43 < Fingolfin> oh and boy, our docs are heavily outdated <sigh>
12:44 < Fingolfin> parts at least are... :-/
12:44 < Fingolfin> "Install" covers upgrading from 0.1.x / 0.2.x / 0.3.x -- i.e. addressing between 0 and 10 people world wide... OTOH, it doesn't mention at all how to properly upgrade a 10.3 system with Fink for 10.4... 
12:45 < Fingolfin> if this doesn't get update, it might be better to just scrap it, it probably causes more harm/confusion than it helps these days :-(
12:46 < Fingolfin> (and I am sorry that this is only whining instead of constructive suggestions as to how to improve this...)
12:46 < vasi> Fingolfin, i'm calling the email thing 'policy' because it was discussed and agreed upon
12:46 < vasi> as for the upgrade page....well, there isn't really a good way to upgrade between dists
12:47 < vasi> usually it comes down to 'selfupdate, get installed version 0.X.Y of fink, update-all and pray it works otherwise you're screwed'
12:47 < vasi> and as long as most people use the source distribution, it's gonna be that ugly
12:47 < Fingolfin> vasi: aye. But it's totally intransparent. if one hasn't by chance read that email, then one has no chance to ever "know" about this "policy"... that makes it an "informal agreement" in my eyes... I don't mind overly, but I think it helps to have things like that written down clearly, because you can point people to it :-). Alas, since I am not going to do that page, and I guess nobody else is interested, I'll stop complaining abou
12:47 < Fingolfin> t it
12:48 < vasi> Fingolfin, i agree with you, if we had a wiki i'd be putting stuff there
12:49 < vasi> somebody said they were going to set one up, dunno what happened there
12:49 < Fingolfin> vasi: and I know about the ugliness of upgrades. However, that is *precisely* why it's a bad idea not to talk about it at all, I'd say... and the front page of fink.sf.net *does* give some advice on how to properly upgrade. But once that news item vanishes out of sight, people won't have an easy way to find out about running postinstall.pl etc....
12:49 < vasi> i'm not disagreeing with you
12:50 < vasi> if you really want this resolved, post to -devel and start a discussion on "what do we recommend people do on upgrade"
12:50 < Fingolfin> aye
12:50 < vasi> and then force the discussion until there's agreement
12:51 < Fingolfin> I'll do that
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13:17 < Fingolfin> Looking at our X11 docs, they say to use "gnome-session" for gnome 2.2 and 2.4. On my system (10.4, latest Fink), there is no gnome-session. Which package does provide that tool? I have gnome-desktop installed, besides other gnome packages...
13:19 < vasi> gnome-session 2.6.2-10: /sw/bin/gnome-session
13:27 < Fingolfin> gee, that was too easy ;-) thanks vasi
13:28 < vasi> please take a look at flocate in exp/vasi/scripts
13:28 < vasi> it indexes all your debs, even if they're not installed
13:30 < vasi> (you have to have built them at some point, of course)
13:40 < Fingolfin> yeah, wouldn't have helped in my case for this reason
13:42 < Fingolfin> hmmm... <http://fink.sourceforge.net/pdb/package.php/imagemagick> -> I wonder if ImageMagick 6 could safely be put into stable. The 5.x package has some bugs, and 6.1.8 has been working perfectly for me
13:53 < Fingolfin> interesting. gnome-session keeps crashing on me...
13:53 < Fingolfin> dyld: lazy symbol binding failed: Symbol not found: _EVP_idea_cbc
13:53 < Fingolfin>   Referenced from: /sw/lib/libssl.0.9.7.dylib
13:53 < Fingolfin>   Expected in: /usr/lib/libcrypto.0.9.7.dylib
13:53 < Fingolfin> hu?!?
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15:22 < vasi> uh, have you updated to 10.4.2 yet?
15:25 < Fingolfin> vasi: talking to me? in that case: yeah
15:25 < vasi> hmm, well this bug was supposed to be fixed in 10.4.2 i thought
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15:25 < vasi> try exporting DYLD_FALLBACK_LIBRARY_PATH=:
15:25  * Fingolfin rebuilt openssl097, gnomevfs2, gnome-session, still occurs
15:26 < Fingolfin> will do
15:26 < Fingolfin> works fine now
15:26 < Fingolfin> hum, what's going on there? 
15:27 < Murrito> hi fing
15:27 < Murrito> how is the German life?
15:28 < Fingolfin> vasi: it shows me an error dialog, though, telling me that starting the GNOME Settings Daemon failed
15:28 < vasi> *shrug* not seen that
15:28 < Fingolfin> Murrito: hi there. Thanks, fine. Passed my last-but-one exam yesterday, thesis is mostly done I'll finally have my degree in fall :-)
15:28 < vasi> make sure that the envvar is set *before* anything that uses g-s-d is run
15:29 < Fingolfin> vasi: I have just changed my xinitrc to set it
15:29 < akh> I get the GNOME Settings Daemon error a lot.
15:29 < Murrito> what degree is that again?
15:29 < Murrito> Magister in Rechnerkunde?
15:33 < Fingolfin> Diplommathematiker :-)
15:33 < Fingolfin> akh: ah
15:33 < Murrito> und was hast Du nachher vor?
15:37 < Fingolfin> I'll continue my scientific career. I was offered various Doktorandenstellen, so I'll be doing my PhD. Maybe moving to Birmingham...
15:37 < Murrito> Brim ingham is good. I hear they even have integrated lunch counters, now
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15:56 < akh> grrr.../me hates editing PHP...
15:57 < drm> whatcha editing?
15:57 < akh> The upgrade matri\x.
15:57 < akh> matrix
15:58 < drm> ah
15:58 < drm> glad you're doing it, though
15:59 < gecko2> hmmm
15:59 < Fingolfin> hi drm :-)
15:59 < gecko2> what was the root-* again?
15:59 < drm> hi Fingolfin
15:59 < gecko2> (/sw/build)
15:59 < drm> having a nice summer?
16:00 < akh> gecko2: /sw/fink.build/ ?
16:00 < akh> oops-- /sw/src/fink.build ?
16:00 < gecko2> nope
16:01 < akh> ah
16:01  * gecko2 uses /sw/build as builddir
16:01 < Fingolfin> akh: just to clarify: my rant about the doc state was most certainly *not* meant as an attack against you or anybody else spending their valuable spare time to fix up the docs! Of course you can't alone do all that work
16:01 < Fingolfin> akh: I am very sorry if it came across badly :-/
16:02 < gecko2> ahh, found it already
16:02 < gecko2> %d
16:03 < Fingolfin> drm: I had an oral exam yesterday, about my "specialisation" subject (geometry in my case. projective/algebraic geometry, that is, not differential :-). My thesis is mostly done. One more exam, then I have my degree :-)
16:03 < akh> Fingolfin: no problem.  
16:04 < drm> Fingolfin: that's a Habilitationschrift? (pardon my spelling)
16:04 < Fingolfin> anyway, folks, I really appreciate all the good work you are doing even w/o me interfering <g>. Sorry for sending complaint mails to fink-devel despite my lack of serious contribution in the past 12+ months 
16:04 < Fingolfin> drm: ah no. I am actually only a lowel masters student, so my "Diplom". I'll start my PhD in fall. Habilitationsschrift would be the step after that, that's still a couple years away... :-)
16:04 < Fingolfin> s/lowel/lowely/
16:05 < Fingolfin> (and your spelling was perfect :-
16:05 < akh> drm:  I have a Fink update question for you--the stuff we've been documenting on the news page deals with source updates.  However--can a user update from 0.7.x to 0.8.x via binary-only methods?
16:05 < Fingolfin> )
16:05 < akh> That's not clear.
16:05 < drm> Fingolfin: the spelling remark was "just in case" :)
16:05 < Fingolfin> ;-)
16:05 < drm> akh: binary only works fine
16:06 < drm> well, should work, anyway
16:06 < akh> OK--so the old upgrade matrix statement was valid (0.5.0 and later)
16:06 < drm> and 0.24.8 should have fixed the bootstrap issues with XCode 2.1, so bootstrapping can again be recommended
16:06 < akh> cool
16:06 < akh> Is 0.24.8 in stable, though?
16:07 < drm> no
16:07 < drm> stable users who have XCode 2.1 shouldn't bootstrap
16:07 < Fingolfin> drm: BTW, the ethereal .deb for 10.3 really is broken; it's missing the ethereal executable. If possible, I'd appreciate if a fixed binary could be uploaded (then I could stop telling 5 people/week how to get ethereal working :-). If I can somehow simplify this process, or do it myself, let me know
16:07 < drm> Fingolfin: yes, iit's on my list
16:07 < Fingolfin> OK. Thanks!
16:09 < vasi> stable users can bootstrap with 0.24.8 but just use stable :-)
16:10 < vasi> (i know, not ideal)
16:10  * Fingolfin is using fink HEAD CVS, and the new fast index updating is working great. Kudos to the responsible
16:11 < akh> vasi: Yeah--but then again, selfupdate mostly works.
16:11 < vasi> your welcome, Fingolfin
16:11 < vasi> there are still some race conditions i need to track down
16:12 < vasi> so i *am* gonna have to do that code-refactoring that i was hoping to avoid
16:12 < vasi> :-/
16:13 < vasi> do we have a person-in-charge-of-infrastructure?
16:13 < drm> what does that mean?
16:13 < akh> Road maintenance?
16:13 < Fingolfin> code-refactoring, hmmm, yummy :-)
16:14 < vasi> well i'm strongly of the opinion that docs are hard to upgrade, certainly too hard for things that might be temporary
16:14 < vasi> so it would be nice to have a wiki or something else that's easier, just for quick things
16:14 < drm> so you want somebody to set up a wiki?
16:14 < vasi> ie: not-quite-ready docs, policy statements from -devel that haven't been merged into the manual
16:14  * akh has a low-budget wiki available.
16:14 < vasi> drm, i don't care if it's a wiki per-se
16:15 < drm> you can probably co-opt the metapkg wiki
16:15 < akh> Good idea.
16:15 < vasi> i couldn't figure out how to edit their wiki last time i looked at it
16:15 < drm> hm? editing wiki's is generally a matter of clicking "edit"
16:16 < drm> (and "they" = "mostly us", by the way)
16:16 < vasi> unfortunately, there's no edit link on metapkg wiki
16:17 < akh> yup
16:17 -!- drm [~drm@m015f36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
16:17 < vasi> er, some pages do seem to have edit, others don't?
16:17 < vasi> really confusing
16:17 < akh> Yeah, I had that happen on my own wiki.
16:17 < vasi> i'm not about to set up a wiki myself, last time i tried that was with nicotine-app.sf.net
16:18 < vasi> and i got deluged with wikispam
16:18 < akh> I can put mine online--it's not way secure, but at least has a password.
16:18 < vasi> !seen dmalloc
16:19 < vasi> er, !seen bot?
16:19 < vasi> :-)
16:19 < vasi> it was dmalloc doing all that infrastructur-y stuff before, right?
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16:19 < drm> sorry about that
16:19 < akh> vasi:  yeah
16:19 < vasi> s'ok drm
16:20 < vasi> drm, i actually checked the size of .debs i'd need for a nicotine app-wrapper of the sort we were discussing
16:20 < akh> Try this:  http://ldx3.psfc.mit.edu:2500/
16:20 < vasi> 38 MB! compared to 5 MB (compressed) for the nicotine.app i distribute
16:20 < vasi> not looking good :-(
16:21 < Fingolfin> We are down to 66 open bug reports, plus 47 pending, from about 150 open two weeks ago :-)
16:21 < akh> Fingolfin: yay!
16:21 < drm> vasi: wow
16:21 < drm> too bad
16:21 < akh> vasi: Bigger than the current Fink Installer seems a bit excessive.
16:22 < drm> akh: not really... every app would have to have a complete copy of fink in addition to everything else
16:22 < vasi> yeah
16:22 < vasi> more or less
16:22 < akh> Ah, right.
16:22 < akh> You should bundle xorg with it.  ;-)
16:22 < drm> vasi: well if they iMovies rumors are true, downloading 38MB will seem like a piece of cake to folks
16:22 < vasi> heh
16:23 < vasi> lol
16:23 < vasi> so i'm back to thinking about gnome-app-install for fink (fink-app-install?) or custom wrappers (fink-dot-app? :-)
16:23 < drm> vasi: do .debs gain anything from compression? or are they already compressed?
16:24 < vasi> a deb is just a tgz plus some other stuff in an ar archive
16:24 < vasi> so yeah, mostly compressed
16:24 < drm> wasn't sure if it was .tar or .tgz
16:24 < vasi> hmm, 15 MB of that is python i think, probably more is stuff it pulls in....but pygtk doesn't really need fink's python
16:25 < vasi> see that's the essential problem, we build fink packages for completeness, trying to include as much as possible so every other package can work with it
16:25 < vasi> which is NOT what's good for dsitribution over and over
16:25 < vasi> feh, why am i thinking of this now? gotta work out indexing first
16:26 < akh> Because it's more fun?
16:28 < drm> vasi: the maximal pkgs are really for folks who want to do the downloading first, and then install offline... most folks would opt for minimal pkgs, which are no worse than the current system
16:29  * gecko2 currently updates joe to 3.3
16:29 < vasi> drm, yeah that's true...i kinda don't like pretending it's a normal .app, and then dragging users through an install process against their will though
16:29 < drm> BTW, looks like editing has been disabled on the metapkg wiki pages
16:29 < vasi> drm, yeah
16:29 < gecko2> i'll place an update submission in few minutes =)
16:30 < drm> vasi: but the web page would warn them
16:30 < drm> and you could call the distributed guys InstallFoo.app
16:30 < vasi> i especially don't like having to ask for root!
16:30 < drm> if you want
16:31 < drm> or Foo\ Installer.app
16:31 < vasi> grrr we need user-mode fink...
16:31 < vasi> is TheSin still working on uid/gid or is that abandoned?
16:31 < drm> vasi: even with user-mode, we'll need root for installs, right?
16:31 < vasi> drm, no
16:31 < vasi> er, maybe
16:31 < vasi> depends on the prefix
16:32 < drm> a choice for the user? (install for yourself vs. install for the entire system, which will require admin privs)?
16:32 < vasi> drm, / is sticky
16:33 < vasi> drm, how do we 'install for yourself'?
16:33 < vasi> for admin users, we can dump it in / without root, fine
16:33 < vasi> but what about non-admins?
16:34 < drm> set prefix = ~/sw ?
16:34 < vasi> drm, and then how do we produce debs which go in the user's $HOME, which depends on $USER?
16:35 < vasi> i'm NOT intending to make the user *build* anything
16:35 < akh> I'd say bag the whole non-admin install thing.
16:35 < drm> can't a .deb say "~/sw" ?
16:35  * drm doesn't know if this will work
16:35 < vasi> drm, it's not like there's a "prefix" field in a deb
16:35 < drm> no, i mean, the list of files would have ~ at the beginning of all addresses
16:36 < drm> that is unambiguous
16:36 < drm> whether it works with dpkg or not is another question
16:36 < vasi> drm, i suspect it would be expanded at some point in the building of the deb
16:36 < vasi> some of the dpkg folks are working on relocatable debs....but many binaries don't like being relocated anyhow
16:37 < vasi> (of course, that's a problem with any solution...)
16:37 < drm> yeah
16:37 -!- mode/#fink [+o akh] by ChanServ
16:37 < vasi> oooh, picked a constellation?
16:38 <@akh> Yup
16:38 < vasi> parse error, in file `/sw/var/lib/dpkg/status
16:38 < vasi> damn!
16:38 -!- akh changed the topic of #fink to: Have a question? Check the FAQ: http://fink.sf.net/faq || Latest Installers: 0.6.4 (10.2), 0.7.2 (10.3), 0.8.0 (10.4) || Fink 0.24.8: Coma Berenices
16:38 < drm> not good
16:39 < drm> (that was directed at vasi, not at the constellation choice)
16:39 -!- mode/#fink [-o akh] by ChanServ
16:39 < vasi> coma?
16:39 < akh> vasi: Hair
16:39 < akh> That's where "comet" comes from.
16:39 < vasi> oh yeah
16:40 < gecko2> done
16:40 < akh> The first Google hit is on Chris Dolan's website.
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16:45 < akh> ugh--/me wishes Debian had a mirroring system that worked more like our source system.
16:46 < akh> (i.e. don't make me quit a multiple-package install because the second item can't be found)
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17:57 < newmanbe_> Hmm, found software using v1 of the GPL.
17:57 < newmanbe_> But why can't Debian take a lesson from Fink and list the homepage for a package?
17:58 < akh> Because people would build newer versions of the package for themselves rather than using their debs.
18:00 < Knghtbrd> so does OpenAL still suck on the mac?  =p
18:00 < akh> Probably
18:02 < akh> hmmm---why is h3 bigger than h2 on the fink PHP pages?
18:03 < newmanbe_> Because 3 is higher than 2?
18:03 < Knghtbrd> akh: it should support 3D sound if CoreAudio does
18:04 < Knghtbrd> but um, most macs until 1998 had a mono speaker, so ...
18:04 < akh> newmanbe: yeah, but it goes h1 > h3 > h2
18:05 < Knghtbrd> haha
18:05 < akh> Silly fonts
18:05 < akh> And it's even a raw php page so there's no underlying stylesheet.
18:05 < newmanbe_> akh: Then your numbering system is wrong.
18:06 < akh> newmanbe_: Yeah--but I'm not going to muck around and fix it. 
18:07 < akh> I'll just size the fonts by eye and if anybody complains, they can bite me.
18:09 -!- drm [~drm@m015f36d0.tmodns.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
18:09 < newmanbe_> !bite akh
18:11 < akh> nyah, nyah, she's not here.  :P 
18:13 < newmanbe_> mee_bot: Since you have bot in your nick, you get to pretend you're a bot and bite akh.
18:14 < akh> newmanbe_:  You haven't even seen the page yet.  At least let me upload it.
18:16 < newmanbe_> No akh! Don't use CVS!
18:16 < newmanbe_> Save yourself!
18:16 < akh> I must.
18:18 < newmanbe_> Nah, just use the shell server and ignore CVS.
18:18 < akh> It's too late for me...
18:20 < newmanbe_> CUA <-- CVS Users Anonymous
18:20 < newmanbe_> RCU <- Recovering CVS Users
18:20 < newmanbe_> Those are all organizations that can help you.
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18:22 < akh> I must obey my master.
18:22 < akh> ;-)
18:23 < newmanbe_> Master? I am your master?
18:24 < akh> No, I meant CVS.
18:24 < akh> Sorry. :-)
18:50 < akh> w00t!  Upgraded the upgrade matrix document.
18:55 -!- linuxmaniac [~maniac@244.Red-83-43-17.pooles.rima-tde.net] has joined #fink
18:56 < linuxmaniac> hi all,
18:57 < linuxmaniac> can anyone take a look to my rdesktop package? I am waiting dor more news since 2005-05-17
18:57 < linuxmaniac> https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=414256&aid=1199003&group_id=17203
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19:01 < akh> linuxmaniac:  change the license to Restrictive
19:02 < akh> (at least until we work out the openssl linkage issues)
19:02 < linuxmaniac> anything else?
19:03 < akh> It looks OK to me otherwise.
19:04 < linuxmaniac> I am just changing the licence
19:06 < cirdan> hey all
19:06 < newmanbe> cirdan!
19:06 < newmanbe> No Melian.
19:07 < cirdan> ?
19:07 < newmanbe> megahal: Where is Melian?
19:07 < megahal> newmanbe: Melian must be ones i like is to draw hot porn.
19:07 < cirdan> bah
19:08 < akh> heh
19:08 < akh> botsmut
19:08 < newmanbe> megahal: Bad megahal...
19:08 < megahal> newmanbe: Who is megahal?
19:08 < linuxmaniac> akh, done
19:08 < newmanbe> lol
19:09 < akh> linuxmaniac: OK.  I'll go ahead and add it.
19:09 < linuxmaniac> thanks akh 
19:09 -!- Melian [~blootbot@pcp04356153pcs.glstrt01.nj.comcast.net] has joined #fink
19:09 < akh> 10.4, 10.3, or both?
19:09 < newmanbe> All of them!
19:10  * newmanbe puts akh in a trance and makes him maintain all of the branches.
19:11 < akh> lemme just make sure it builds here.
19:12 < akh> MD5 is good...
19:13 < akh> That's the problem with the trackers--packages that are ready to go get buried amongst broken ones.
19:14 < newmanbe> Recomends, Enhance, and friends are somewhat silly.
19:14 < cirdan> naa
19:14 < cirdan> Recomends, Enhances and suggests are nice
19:14 < cirdan> but fink needs to learn about them
19:15 < newmanbe> Yes, that is why they are silly.
19:15 < cirdan> not sillt for dselect/aptitude/apt
19:15 < newmanbe> But the thing is I don't use those.
19:17 < newmanbe> Hmm, is fink 0.24.8 the one with the faster indexing?
19:17 < newmanbe> I haven't selfupated in a while.
19:17 < akh> newmanbe: read the ChangeLog.
19:18 < newmanbe> But it hasn't expanded itself yet. :)
19:18 < akh> linuxmaniac: looks OK.
19:18 < akh> newmanbe: ah
19:19 < linuxmaniac> akh, ok
19:26 -!- akh is now known as akh_rebooting
19:26 -!- akh [~akhansen@68-118-244-23.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #fink
19:27 < newmanbe> What in the world is /sw/share/fink/images for?
19:27 < akh_rebooting> Icons for Growl
19:27 < newmanbe> Oh.
19:28 < newmanbe> It should put that in /sw/share/growl or something...
19:29 < akh> Well, it's not like there are any other images.
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19:30 < akh> Ugh--selfupdate-cvs is murder the first time.
19:31 < newmanbe> Yeah.
19:33 < akh> especially when fink won't move /sw/fink.old
19:34 < akh> :-\
19:35 < newmanbe> Isn't that in the FAQ?
19:35  * akh put it there, so yes.  ;-)
19:37 -!- Murrito [~neeri@c-24-7-119-74.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
19:40 < linuxmaniac> I have to go... thanks akh !! 
19:41 -!- linuxmaniac [~maniac@244.Red-83-43-17.pooles.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
19:55  * akh needs a smaller Panther drive.
19:55 < akh> (physical size not storage space)
19:55 < cirdan> heh
19:56 < akh> Like an iPod, but just a HD that's powered via firewire
19:56 < akh> 100 gigs would do it.
19:56 < cirdan> they have thos
19:56 < cirdan> e
19:56 < cirdan> $$$
19:56 < cirdan> laptop hd in a fw case
19:57 < akh> Cool.  How much do they run?
19:57  * cirdan directs akh to http://www.pricewatch.com
19:57 < cirdan> look for a 100G drive, then a 2.5" bus powerd case
19:57 < cirdan> the drives are not cheap
19:58 < akh> Yeah that's the problem.  My current Panther drive is OK, but I have to have a working outlet for it.
19:58 < akh> That doesn't always happen when I'm on the train.
19:59 < cirdan> still, see how much thye run
20:00 < cirdan> cheapest bare drive is $145
20:00 < cirdan> toshiba 4800RPM
20:00 < akh> That's not too bad, I guess.
20:04 < cirdan> here is one bus-power enclosure: http://www.meritline.com/adspyr25driv.html
20:05 < cirdan> cheap: http://www.akida.net/.sc/ms/dd/1101316582306819/0/nc/ee/636/Enclosuer%20Slim%202%2E5%26quot%3B%20Aluminum%20ME-940U2F%20USB2%20%26%201394%20Firewire
20:05 < cirdan> but only up to 9.5mm drive
20:06 < cirdan> or http://www.cableclub.com/product_info.php?products_id=1324
20:06 < cirdan> and http://www.zeehoo.com/miva/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=Zeehoo&Product_Code=BMFW2.5
20:07 < cirdan> best deal: http://www.toolspcs.com/25nothardriv.html
20:07 < cirdan> there is a fw/usb version also
20:07 < cirdan> but it's 53
20:09  * akh gets ideas...
20:10 < Knghtbrd> uhoh
20:10 < cirdan> hehe
20:11 < cirdan> so youre loojking at about 200-220 for a 100G external usb/fw bus powered drive
20:11 < cirdan> oh, just search for firewire 2.5 on pricewatch to see the enclosures
20:11 < Knghtbrd> mapower enclosures are nice
20:11 < Knghtbrd> I can recommend them highly
20:12 < Knghtbrd> and they're pretty cheap at newegg
20:13 < cirdan> i tink the last might even be an oxford chipset
20:13 < cirdan> i like thise
20:13 < cirdan> easy to update
20:13 < cirdan> java client app
20:16 < Knghtbrd> mapowers are oxford for sure
20:17 < akh> sweet
20:19  * cirdan sleeps
20:19 < cirdan> too long a day
20:21  * akh grabs dinner--had to wait until my wife finished Half-Blood Prince.
20:23 < cirdan> hhe'
20:25 < pogma> yay for UPS! due to storm power keeps flicking off.
20:41 < Knghtbrd> owww that's gonna hurt later
20:42  * Knghtbrd just took care of a finger cut, basically from the top of the nail up to the knuckle
20:43 < Knghtbrd> this is what I get for poking around inside wintel hardware
21:28  * akh needs to get a UPS.
21:35 < akh> hmmm...no more HP iPods...
21:35 < Knghtbrd> ?
21:35 < Knghtbrd> why not?
21:37 < akh> http://news.com.com/HP+to+stop+selling+Apples+iPod/2100-1047-5810643.html?part=dht&tag=ntop&tag=nl.e433
21:39 < Knghtbrd> oh, HP just isn't selling enough of them
21:39 < akh> Yeah--that's kind of the gist I got after I read the article.
21:40 < akh> That "including iTunes" on their PCs is kind of silly, though--it's not like it's not a free download.
21:40 < Knghtbrd> "limited warrany and award-winning service"
21:40 < Knghtbrd> lol
21:40 < akh> heh
21:41 < Knghtbrd> it just sounds like HP agreed to buy in quantities they couldn't sell, so their product lagged behind, and it was not really profitable either..
21:42 < akh> yup
21:43 < akh> hmm...wonder if I've got hfs+ support in my kernel...
21:43 < akh> (at least as a module)
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23:00 < newmanbe> deamonic has basically no documentation, except perhaps the source.
23:00 < newmanbe> Melian: Goodbye!
23:00 -!- newmanbe [~newmanbe@2cf01df2f8cff7bb.session.tor] has quit ["Gone for the week!"]
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--- Log closed Sun Jul 31 00:00:58 2005