--- Log opened Tue Aug 02 00:00:29 2005
--- Day changed Tue Aug 02 2005
00:00 < asari> hm
00:00 < asari> `PKG_CONFIG_PATH=/sw/lib/freetype219/lib/pkgconfig/ pkg-config --libs gtk+-2.0` works well, no problem
00:00 < asari> , i guess
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07:31 < macintoshr> hey i installed gnome from fink, but all i see in /sw/bin is gnome-about                             ppmtogif
07:31 < macintoshr> gnome-keyring-daemon                    ppmtoicr
07:31 < macintoshr> gnome-open                              ppmtoilbm
07:31 < macintoshr> gnomevfs-cat                            ppmtojpeg
07:31 < macintoshr> gnomevfs-copy                           ppmtoleaf
07:31 < macintoshr> gnomevfs-info                           ppmtolj
07:31 < macintoshr> gnomevfs-ls                             ppmtomap
07:31 < macintoshr> gnomevfs-mkdir         
07:31 < macintoshr> anyone know where the main gnome app is?
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07:41 < chris01> macintoshr: i am not familiar with gnome. But did you check: 'fink info bundle-gnome' ?
07:45 < cirdan> or gink list gnome
07:48 < macintoshr> ahhh whoops
07:48 < macintoshr> i just installed gnome-shlibs
07:48 < macintoshr> sorry
07:48 < macintoshr> how long should it take to compile gnome from source?
07:49 < macintoshr> with all its other packages
07:49 < macintoshr> it's 9:20 pm where i am... should it be done by tomorrow morning on a powerbook g4 1.33GHZ?
07:52 < chris01> mhmm... i have no idea.
07:53 < chris01> make sure you have UseBinaryDist enabled. Check with 'fink configure' or in /sw/etc/fink.conf
07:53 < chris01> this will at least download some pre-built packages instead of building them.
07:53 < chris01> i won't help much if you are on 10.4, though, since not many packages are available as binary there yet.
07:55 < macintoshr> yeah im on 10.4
07:55 < macintoshr> oh well i can wait...
07:59 < macintoshr> be back tomorrow
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09:35 < lisppaste> mrob.com annotated #7983 with "Suggest modem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/7983#1
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09:53 < akh> lisppaste spam?
09:55 < akh> On closer reading, no.
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11:01 < chris01> hi TheSin
11:01 < dmacks> How's vacation, TheSin?
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11:03 < TheSin> dmacks, not bad, thanks for asking :P
11:03 < TheSin> hey chris01 
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11:04 < zizban> hey TheSin 
11:04 < TheSin> :P hey zizban 
11:04 < dmacks> vasi was looking for you last night (something about AutoShlibs). But he knows you're on vacation so it can wait.
11:04 < TheSin> he opened a ticket abou tit
11:04 < TheSin> I need to reply to it
11:04 < dmacks> Ah okay.
11:05 < TheSin> I know exactly what the problem is
11:05 < TheSin> how are things going with you dmacks ?
11:06 < dmacks> Fine fine.
11:08 < dmacks> [for anyone that uses gmane, they're back up, missing most articles from last ~2 weeks but newly-arriving things are present. The archive will be restored in a few weeks]
11:08 < zizban> When does vacation end?
11:09 < TheSin> tomorrow
11:09 < TheSin> ish
11:09 < TheSin> why what's up?
11:09 < zizban> oh
11:09 < zizban> nothing, just curious
11:10 < TheSin> ah :P
11:10 < TheSin> I'll be online most of today anyhow
11:11 < zizban> cool
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11:15 < chris01> TheSin: people were bugging me to move the latest subversion packages to stable.
11:15 < chris01> Is anything holding up moving the apr and apache2 packages to stable?
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11:20 < TheSin> chris01, not that I know of
11:20 < TheSin> but I won't move them
11:20 < chris01> ok, would you care if i would move them?
11:20 < TheSin> I don't care no
11:20 < TheSin> :P
11:20 < chris01> or shall i ask dsias first?
11:20 < TheSin> I just hate the process for moving to stable
11:21 < TheSin> no go ahead
11:21 < chris01> ok, that explains your "no".
11:21 < chori> Does it exist any binary packages or are every package in source format? It take a bit to much time to compile everything
11:21 < pogma> hi
11:21 < chris01> chori: yes, some packages do exist as binary,
11:21 < TheSin> hey pogma 
11:22 < pogma> TheSin: Thanks for worrying about me (drm forwarded your mail) :)
11:22 < chris01> chori: check out the package database at http://fink.sf.net/pdb
11:22 < chris01> hi pogma
11:22 < chori> chris01: Were does it say if its in bin or source?
11:22 < TheSin> pogma, ;), hadn't been in the chan in some time and it caught me off guard
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11:23 < TheSin> glad your ok though
11:23 < chris01> chori: search for the package you are interested in, then it tells you in the column "Binary Distribution"
11:25 < chori> chris01: Ok thanks. Only wish openoffice could be bin...
11:25 < chris01> chori: the best way to help here is to tell the maintainers of the packages you built from source, that you did successfully.
11:26 < chris01> chori: and ask them to move these packages to the stable tree. Only then they will be included in the next binary release.
11:26 < chris01> chori: make sure you use the UseBinaryDist option too. Check with 'fink configure' or in '/sw/etc/fink.conf'
11:27 < dmacks> The oo.o pkgs are rapidly evolving...lots of problems being fixed reported and new revisions being uploaded.
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11:30 < dmacks> chris01: Thanks for uncovering a bug in the web-PDB generator:/
11:32 < dmacks> crap...make that "two bugs"
11:38 -!- You're now known as RangerRick
11:41 < RangerRick> heh
11:42 < zizban> hey!
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11:48 < chris01> dmacks: hä?
11:49 < dmacks> chris01: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1250338&group_id=17203&atid=117203
11:49 < chris01> aha. :)
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12:04 < htodd> RangerRick: did you see my msg?
12:06 < RangerRick> htodd: nothing was hilighted in my backscroll, so no
12:06 < RangerRick> (or do you mean e-mail?)
12:06  * RangerRick is on vacation, haven't payed much attention to anything  :)
12:15 < zizban> RangerRick is vaction, TheSin is on vacation...must be the season
12:15 < akh> Yup
12:16 < RangerRick> well... yeah  :)
12:16  * akh took my vacation in June when the weather was nice here, like an idiot.
12:16 < dmacks> Well done!
12:17 < dmacks> akh: Did drm contact you about a Wiki password?
12:17 < akh> not as of yet.
12:18 < akh> Or, at least I haven't received it.
12:20 < htodd> RangerRick: I saw your picture on trax10y
12:20 < htodd> was surprised
12:21 < akh> dmacks: I just sent out a message to give out the read-only URL as well.
12:21 < RangerRick> :)
12:21 < RangerRick> yeah, was a fun time
12:21 < RangerRick> finally met a bunch of people I never saw in person
12:21 < dmacks> akh: Cool.
12:22 < RangerRick> (well, except for the few I met at NAID)
12:23 < htodd> and then I asked (I probably did before) if you knew about diablo
12:24 < RangerRick> ah, yeah
12:24 < RangerRick> I'd heard
12:24  * zizban hasn't met anyone from fink in person. Still waiting for akh to offer him a job at MIT :)
12:24 < htodd> so what's up with fink consultin?
12:24 < htodd> g
12:24  * dmacks job-hunting...anyone wanna hire a chemist?
12:24 < akh> zizban:  I'd be glad to (a) if I had a position to offer, and (b) if I actually held a position at this august institution.
12:24 < htodd> dmacks: plenty of meth labs in Oregon
12:25 < zizban> heh
12:25 < dmacks> heh
12:25 < zizban> they are looking for a chemistry teacher here in town
12:25 < zizban> how does beautiful new England sound?
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12:26 -!- You're now known as RangerAway
12:27  * dmacks went to ugrad in New England, would be happy to return. Don't think I have the patience to teach high school though.
12:27 < zizban> I teach high school special ed
12:28 < akh> That would definitely require patience.
12:28 < dmacks> Watsamatter, akh...you already answer half of -beginners.
12:28 < zizban> yepper. Best job I ever had. Best job that I ever hated sometimes
12:29 < htodd> zizban: do you have your teaching credential?
12:29 < akh> dmacks: Yeah, but I can ignore my email.
12:30 < dmacks> Good point.
12:30 < zizban> htodd: Nope but I have until summer 2006 to get it :)
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12:31 < dmacks> Guess $principal wouldn't understand you sending in Mr. Dave Null as substitute.
12:32 < zizban> anyone can be a substitute because no one wnats to do it
12:33 < dmacks> Few years ago in DC they were grabbing homeless folks off the street to babysit^Wbe substitutes.
12:34 < zizban> heh
12:34 < zizban> I'm not surprised
12:34 < dmacks> Ahh, the dumbening of America's Capital.
12:35 < zizban> yepper
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12:38 < akh> Dunno about that:  some of those homeless people are probably brighter than some of our prominent elected officials.
12:39 < dmacks> Speaking of what, you heard his latest edumacational goal? "intelligent design alongside evolution"
12:40 < zizban> sheesh
12:40 < zizban> ID hasn't been scientifically tested. It wants to "cheat" and jump to the head of the line
12:40 < akh> That would be because it wouldn't pass.
12:41 < akh> I guess he's trying to get everybody ready for the Rapture or something.
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12:42 < zizban> yepper. Proponents of ID want to present something that hasn't been tested scientifically as a theory of science
12:42 < htodd> rapture - take a tour through the sewer
12:42 < zizban> might as well go back to the idea of spontaneous generation, ala, eels formed from slime at the bottom of rivers
12:42 < htodd> darn you guys
12:42 < htodd> you got another bad song stuck in my head
12:42 < zizban> Rapture, by Blonide?
12:42 < zizban> great tune
12:43 < dmacks> "so? It's called the _theory_ of evolution too."
12:43 < htodd> ok, not a BAD song, just a song
12:43 < dmacks> </jackass>
12:43 < htodd> stuck, stuck, stuck
12:43 < zizban> but evolution has been tested and examined in scientific journals for a century. ID hasn't
12:43 < akh> Silly vernacular vs. technical usage of "theory".
12:43 < dmacks> "You have your pet theory, I have mine"
12:44 < htodd> isn't the test, "do you feel it?"
12:44 < htodd> aw, now I did it to myself: The Jackson's "Can You Feel It?"
12:44 < akh> haha
12:44 < dmacks> %% We come from the water// living in the water// go back to the water// turn the world around %%
12:45 < dmacks> There ya go.
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12:45 < zizban> heh
12:45 < akh> May have to do a bit of splicing to get that to work--maybe not...
12:45  * AndreU has finally compiled KDE 3.4.1 :-)
12:45 < akh> Cool
12:46  * dmacks fires up Harry Belafonte.
12:46 < AndreU> it takes quite some time as you said
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12:46 < akh> AndreU: That it does.
12:46 < AndreU> akh, can you tell me if kadddressbook works for you?
12:47 < akh> Let me check...
12:47 < zizban> AndreU: I tried kde 3.4.1 with the kubuntu cd. Nice!
12:47 < AndreU> even nicer on Mac :-)
12:48 < zizban> I bet :)
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12:48 < AndreU> it becomes really nice, did not tried it since 3.2
12:48 < zizban> I haven't tried it since 3.1, when I ran it on Solaris
12:49 < AndreU> they are fast and made big advantages in recent times
12:49 < akh> AndreU: kaddressbook didn't work when I tried it just now
12:49 < AndreU> ah ok
12:49 < zizban> cool. I am planning on upgrading to 3.4 next time I fire up my solaris box
12:50 < akh> But I'll try once more with a different set up.
12:50 < AndreU> this breaks kontact too, as it uses kaddress as plugin
12:51 < akh> Yeah-- RangerAway picked a good week for vacation.
12:51 < zizban> he sure did
12:51 < zizban> :)
12:52 < AndreU> for doing the porting?
12:52 < akh> No--to avoid answering emails about problems.  ;-)
12:53 < zizban> he always avoids them anyway, but this gives him an actual excuse this time :)
12:54 < AndreU> overall he did a good job, I really lucky now running KDE on Mac :-))))
12:56 < zizban> people bitched for so long to get kde on the mac'
12:56 < zizban> took tons of work to get it to work
12:57 < AndreU> Ranger is left alone on the job I guess?
12:57 < AndreU> thougt about how to support him
12:58 < zizban> he does, I think, 90% of the work
12:58 < zizban> how to support him? Write him letters telling him how happy you are with kde and give constructive feedback
12:58 < AndreU> jepp
12:58 < zizban> any packager in fink likes those kinds of emails
12:59 < AndreU> do you have a package?
12:59 < zizban> yes, Comment
12:59 < dmacks> akh: You might want to try copying the last section of mozilla.patch to oo.o (adjusted for its directory layout) and see if that fixes it. IIRC Todai isn't using Tiger much.
12:59 < akh> Ah
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13:00 < akh> Maybe if I get bored--I don't need it for myself, but I figured that I'll bitch and try to get a bit more movement there.
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13:04 < opsis> hello
13:04 < zizban> hi
13:04 < opsis> anyone know why there are no binary packages for the unstable tree?
13:05 < zizban> there are many reasons
13:05 < zizban> time, effort
13:05 < zizban> infrastructure
13:06 < opsis> the compiles couldn't just be done automatically?
13:06 < zizban> nope
13:06 < zizban> it takes a lot of work to maintain the stable bindist, never mind the unstable one
13:07 < zizban> and unstable is a moving target, constantly changing
13:07 < opsis> I don't really understand why...you can do a fink install * easy enough, which builds a .deb file
13:07 < opsis> so why not do the entire tree
13:07 < opsis> at regular intervals
13:08 < zizban> the deb fink install builds is specific to your machine and it's set up. A deb built on your machine may not work on mine
13:08 < zizban> so an unstable deb prebuilt on a fink machine may not work on everyone's computer
13:08 < opsis> because of gcc flags?
13:09 < zizban> that's one reason
13:10 < zizban> there are plans for an unstable bindist but its slow going and wont happen anytime soon, sorry
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13:11 < opsis> anything I could do to help with the effort?
13:12 < zizban> I dunno. talk to RangerRick, akh or drm, when they are on
13:12 < zizban> we love a new slave...err, volunteer :)
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13:24 < chris01> opsis: msachs is trying to achieve an automatic build system.
13:24 < chris01> check his posts on the mailing list archives.
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13:45 < akh> That and a build farm.
13:48 -!- leafw [~trull@85-53-105-191.mad1.adsl.uni2.es] has joined #fink
13:48 < leafw> Does anyone know if ftp servers can be mounted read/write with command+k ?
13:52 < akh> Lemme check
13:53 < akh> (it's going slowly)
13:54 < cirdan> morning all
13:55 < cirdan> from man mount_ftp:
13:55 < cirdan> The rdonly              option will be set even if it was not specified because mount_ftp              does not allow files to be opened with write access on servers.
13:55 < akh> ah
13:56  * akh observed the same thing empirically, so everything's consistent.  ;-)
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14:14 < akh> mmmm...firewire flash drive
14:14 < akh> Only 1 gig, though.
14:20 < cirdan> heh
14:20  * cirdan waits for the 2 gig shuffl
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15:08 < akh> man--why can't they open an Apple Store out in the burbs towards where I live.
15:11 < akh> None of the 4 in the Boston area are exactly convenient to me
15:12 < dmacks> None are near $JOB? (or near a WiFi location where you can pretend to be at $JOB)?
15:13 < sid77> akh, mightymouse frenzy?
15:13 < akh> dmacks: There's one in Cambridge, but it's kind of a haul.
15:14 < akh> sid77 ?
15:14 < sid77> akh, http://www.apple.com/mightymouse/
15:15 < sid77> I was thinking tou're searching a store for this :-)
15:15 < akh> sid77: Ah--no, I just saw a new store announcement, but now that you mention it...
15:15 < sid77> ahahahhaha
15:16 < akh> I'm better off ordering stuff online anyway so that I can get an educational discount--neither of my machines are _my_ property.
15:17 < akh> Heh:  it's PC compatible, too.
15:17 < akh> Wonder how it would get along with Linux...
15:17 < sid77> yep
15:18 < sid77> I've heard that last pbook touchpad causes some problems
15:18 < dmacks> "neither of my machines are _my_ property...*yet* MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA"
15:18 < dmacks> No charge for the editorial corrections:)
15:18 < akh> dmacks: eh, they're old.
15:18 < akh> Sub GHz powerbook and a 5 year old tower.
15:18 < dmacks> As old and useless as something is, someone on ebay is that dumb.
15:20 < akh> And they're in the MIT tracking system, too, so I'd have to go to a whole lot of trouble to "disappear" them.  I'm too lazy for that. ;-)
15:21 < dmacks> Peel off the RFID tag, slip it into $BOSS's briefcase?
15:21  * dmacks <- BOFH in previous life.
15:21 < akh> They're just paper tags--but MIT checks up every so often.
15:22 < akh> I've lost the one from the powerbook every time it's been in the shop.
15:23 < dmacks> A paper trail about how ID-tagged things disappear. Perfect!
15:24 < akh> They should come up with a wireless variant
15:28 -!- sid77 [~sid77@ppp-119-162.30-151.libero.it] has quit ["Leaving"]
15:28 < dmacks> Yamean RFID?
15:28 < akh> No, the Mighty Mouse
15:28 < akh> Bluetooth
15:29 < dmacks> Ah, we're talkin' miceses.
15:29 < akh> Yup--meeses
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15:30 < dmacks> Meeses??? I thought the OS X drivers could only handle one moose at a time.
15:31 < akh> Mouse + trackpad works, though.
15:34 < dmacks> SGI SpaceBall?
15:35 < dmacks> Man, if that could get some haptic feedback....
15:35 < akh> heh
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16:55 < drm> akh_gone: come back
16:55 < drm> anybody know what needs to be escaped in a perl regex?
16:56 < dmacks> Everything that has another meaning in that context?
16:56 < drm> i guess i escape \, right?
16:56 < drm> also $
16:56 < drm> what about " ?
16:56 < dmacks> Nah, quote has no meaning within a regex.
16:57 < drm> i'm afraid that if i escape sutff unneccessarily, its not gonna match
16:58 < dmacks> yape-regex-explain-pm has a program that will deparse a regex for you into english...might be helpful.
16:58 < dmacks> (doesn't know some of the most-esoteric features IIRC)
16:59 < drm> ok, i think i got it
16:59  * drm tests again
17:00 < drm> btw, i had no problem with the -ssl discussion last night
17:00 < dmacks> Okay:)
17:01 < drm> as soon as i overlap with akh and get a wiki pw, i'll document my point of view
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19:34 < vasi> dmacks, i made a patch to get fink to look in the deb for certain fields rather than in the pdb....i'm not at all convinced it will be robust though, could you take a look?
19:35 < vasi> http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1249916&group_id=17203&atid=117203
19:37 < dmacks> I'll trade you for makeing sure the new .build pahname is doucmented:)
19:37 < vasi> heh, ok i'll try to figure out where to doc it :-)
19:37 < dmacks> fonk.conf? u*.en.xml?
19:38 < vasi> i guess %b
19:38 < dmacks> Hrm, never thought about the past tense for "fink" before:)
19:38 < dmacks> Yeah, also %b.
19:39 < vasi> i always thought "fink" would be great for swearing
19:39 < vasi> "what the fink!?"
19:40 < dmacks> heh
19:40 < dmacks> For that patch, may as well also move _pkglist_provides/_provides_no_cache into _pkglist_common?
19:41 < dmacks> Or wait, nm...that wouldn't work.
19:41 < vasi> yeah, i thought about that too :-)
19:42 < vasi> you could probably do it using dynamic method names or something, *shrug*
19:42 < dmacks> Don't make me come over there!! *shakes fist*
19:44 -!- drm [~drm@65.210.36.227] has joined #fink
19:45  * drm can never remember the URL for msachs's build logs
19:46 < dmacks> http://something-maybe-opendarwin.org/somehing-withthe-word-"build"-in-it
19:46 < dmacks> hth:)
19:46 < drm> !lart dmacks
19:46  * Melian cuts dmacks into thin stripes
19:46 < drm> :)
19:48 < vasi> fink.opendarwin.org/build
19:48 < drm> thanks
19:48 < drm> so dmacks was right after all!
19:48 < vasi> i hate editing manpages, can't we generate them from xml instead?
19:48 < dmacks> Oh yeah, *that* always works well.
19:48 < vasi> (i hate editing xml also, but less than editing manpages)
19:50 < dmacks> In the patch, why do you not set_param if $result is false?
19:50 < dmacks> (...in _use_pkglist_from_binary)
19:50 < drm> so if a package compiled on May 8 but not on June whatever, do we blame XCode 2.1?
19:51 < dmacks> Sure...why not. What's the error?
19:51 < drm> array type has incomplete element type
19:52 < drm> whatever that means
19:52 < dmacks> Yeah, that's xcode2.1 I think.
19:52 < drm> is there a fix?
19:52 < drm> other than reverting to gcc 3.3, which i am about to do
19:52 < dmacks> Add an #include before that declaration.
19:53 < drm>  #include what?
19:53 < dmacks> dunno:)
19:53  * drm summons msachs
19:53 < dmacks> Wot pkg?
19:53 < drm> libgtop2
19:55 < vasi> drm
19:55 < drm> BTW, do any XCode 2.1 fixes break stuff on XCode 2.0?  Should we enforce XCode 2.1 for the 10.4 tree?
19:55 < vasi> i believe that means you have to specify the actual definition of the type
19:56 < vasi> so if the array is SomeType foo[];
19:56 < dmacks> I think no xcode2.1 fixes will break on xcode2.0 (or even 1.5 in most cases)
19:56 < vasi> then you need to find where SomeType is *defined* (ie: the struct SomeType { ... })
19:56 < vasi> and make sure that's earlier than the array declaration
19:57 < vasi> dmacks, uh i think you're right, we should set_param if it's false too...when i wrote that i only thought about going in one direction i guess!
19:57 < drm> vasi: ok, but this isn't my pkg, i'm just doing a trial build on my 10.4 tree... i want everything to "just work" :)
19:57 < vasi> drm, you asked a question so i gave you an answer, don't complain :-P
19:57 < drm> hehe
19:58 < dmacks> (just use length() I guess...I assume you're trying to make sure that $field is actually in the .deb? "thanks Debian for having such retarded concepts for "success" and "failure")
19:59 < vasi> dmacks, oh wait that one....er, i was trying to check for success, yeah
19:59 < vasi> but you accidentally pointed out another problem :-)
19:59 < dmacks> Go me!
20:00 < vasi> er, yeah, so that patch doesn't give fink the chance to go back to .info
20:03 < vasi> damn, looks like i may have to rewrite expand_percent_if_available and such to work on a variable?
20:03 < vasi> er, and it's not obvious how to deal with provides and the caching
20:03 < vasi> ugh
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20:03 < dmacks> This is useful: "You have an error in your SQL syntax near ''"
20:03 < vasi> ok, what i'm more interested in is whether you think this method of doing things is reasonably robust
20:04 < vasi> dmacks, that's sql for ya
20:04 < vasi> if you're using a good sql client, it should point out where :-)
20:04 < dmacks> Seems okay to me. TheSin will be back from vacation tomorrow.
20:04 < dmacks> vasi: This is on sf.
20:04 < dmacks> :(
20:04  * dmacks goes to revert pdb.....
20:06 < vasi> oh crap, my comment was lying
20:09 < dmacks> Wow, web-pdb patch was *really* fragile. Uh oh...
20:09 < vasi> damn
20:10 < vasi> btw dmacks, i'm going to do some er....exploring....to see if i can get fink hooked up to smartpm
20:10 < vasi> will require some Inline::Python magic
20:11  * dmacks hopes vasi doesn't push us back towards faving fink require compiled-C perl modules.
20:12 < dmacks> *having
20:12 < dmacks> ...that aren't in perl core.
20:12 < vasi> dmacks, Inline will be in core in 5.10
20:12 < vasi> at least that's the plan
20:13 < dmacks> Storable was that much fun that you want to do it again?
20:14 < vasi> well do you have a better idea for how to deal with the dep engine mess?
20:14 -!- hennker [flullup@dsl-082-082-224-169.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["leaving"]
20:15 < vasi> (i mean, have you looked at the code for apt/yum/smart before? it's not exactly simple stuff)
20:15 < dmacks> Close my eyes, put fingers in my ears, go "LA LA LA CAN'T HEAR YOU!"
20:15 < vasi> lol
20:16 < dmacks> How does Inline::$Lang do its thing when $Lang is a scripted language?
20:18 < vasi> i don't really know, i suspect it needs an XS module to load the interpreter for $Lang inside the perl process
20:18 < vasi> ironically, Inline::C probably needs the least XS stuff
20:19 < dmacks> Could we simulate Inline:Python with system("python -c $script") ?
20:19 < vasi> not really
20:19 < vasi> we could write some fancy socket code to let fink and python communicate i guess
20:20 -!- akh_gone [~akhansen@ldx3.psfc.mit.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20:20 < vasi> or the equivalent with files
20:20 -!- akh [~akhansen@68-118-244-23.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #fink
20:20 < dmacks> drm: Get him!
20:20 < drm> akh!
20:21 < dmacks> drm: does libgtop2 2.8 build better?
20:21 < drm> dmacks: there is no fink package for it
20:22 < drm> oh, maybe in exp?
20:22  * dmacks hopes drm is now thinking "maybe I'll upgrade it" :)
20:22 < akh> hehe
20:22 < drm> no, still thinking "i wonder if it will work with gcc 3.3"
20:22 < drm> akh: can i have a wiki account please?
20:23 < akh> yes
20:23 < drm> and the URL, which i don't know...
20:24 < drm> ok, thanks...what are the plans for this? is it going to be publically readable somehow?
20:25 < akh> Sure--I sent the read-only URL out to -devel
20:25 < drm> ah, didn't notice that
20:25 < vasi> it alreadthanks akh :-)
20:25 < vasi> woops
20:25 < akh> heh
20:26 < vasi> that was supposed to say that's it's already publically readable
20:26 < vasi> but akh got there first :-)
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20:37 < msachs> 'lo
20:37 < opsis> 'lo
20:37 < msachs> Who was it that was working on getting buildbot doing automated builds?
20:43 < vasi> uhhh
20:43 < vasi> search the logs?
20:43 < msachs> Guess I'll search harder :)
21:03 < akh> hmmm---somebody on -users talking trash about the tracker.
21:04  * akh should have said "and when one of these packages wipes out your /var, don't fscking come complain to us, because you used "some guy's" .info file.
21:11 < vasi> well, the SF trackers do kinda suck
21:12 < griff> hello, I am trying to "update all" after a long neglected "selfupdate-cvs"
21:12 < griff> and this happens:
21:12 < griff> make[1]: *** [../lib/libqt-mt.3.3.4.dylib] Error 1
21:12 < griff> make: *** [sub-src] Error 2
21:12 < griff> ### execution of /var/tmp/tmp.2.A1Fecu failed, exit code 2
21:12 < vasi> griff, please paste a more complete error log with lisppaste
21:12 < vasi> lisppaste: url?
21:12 < lisppaste> To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/fink and enter your paste.
21:12 < griff> the whole thing?
21:12 < griff> ok hold on
21:12 < griff> thanks
21:13 < vasi> (also, is there any particular reason you're using selfupdate-cvs rather than -rsync?)
21:13 < lisppaste> griff pasted "selfupdate error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/10442
21:13 < griff> I can do more if that's not enough, there's quite a lot...
21:14 < griff> umm... rsync kept failing when it tried to check the timestampt
21:14 < vasi> yeah, i'm going to need a bit more than that, let's say 3 pages worth or something?
21:14 < griff> ok
21:14 < vasi> hmm, well i'll look at the rsync problem after
21:15 < griff> thanks
21:16 < griff> ... did that work?
21:16 < vasi> ummm...did what work?
21:17 < griff> did I manage to "annotate" the error log?
21:18 < vasi> i don't think so
21:18 < griff> hmm....
21:19 < griff> should I just make a new paste then?
21:19 < vasi> sure
21:19 < griff> oh
21:19 < griff> I'm dumb
21:19 < griff> it says paste too large
21:22 < lisppaste> griff pasted "as much as iterm has..." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/10444
21:22 < griff> tada
21:23 < griff> I've got more where that came from...
21:23 < vasi> are you on Panther?
21:23 < griff> 10.3.9
21:24 -!- zizban [~zizban@24-52-0-219.sbtnvt.adelphia.net] has joined #fink
21:25 < vasi> ok, do you know where you got your X11 from?
21:25 < griff> I'm using X.org
21:25 < vasi> from fink?
21:25 < griff> I've been fighting with it for some time
21:25 < vasi> hmm, can you run: fink list -i xorg xfree x11
21:25 < griff> actually at this point I'm not sure where its from
21:25 < griff> ok
21:26 < griff> give me a sec
21:26 < griff> ok 
21:27 < griff> I've got xorg and xorg-shlibs, both 6.8.2-25
21:27 < akh> vasi:  granted that the trackers suck--getting a bad rep because of uncontrolled packages would suck more.
21:28 < dmacks> libGL is prolly bolloxed.
21:28 < vasi> akh, agreed
21:28 < vasi> dmacks, yes :-)
21:28 < vasi> griff, please run 'fink reinstall xorg xorg-shlibs'
21:28 < griff> ok
21:28 < griff> thanks
21:28 < griff> I'll let you know
21:28 < vasi>  the run 'fink install ccache-default', so if you have to try this over and over, it goes faster
21:29 < vasi> then try whatever command was failing
21:29 < griff> ?
21:29 < dmacks> griff: did your fink compile xorg on your machine, or did you download the precompiled binary?
21:29 < griff> run that after?
21:29 < griff> I'm actually not sure at this point, I've done both
21:29 < griff> no
21:29 < vasi> dmacks, do we have a xorg binary available?
21:29 < griff> i compiled it from source
21:29 < akh> The PDB doesn't show any binaries.
21:29 < griff> ... at one point...
21:30 < griff> well its donee
21:31 < griff> that was unnervingly quick
21:31 < griff> ccache gave me this warning, but it looks fairly standard
21:32 -!- vasi [~vasi@modemcable133.147-70-69.mc.videotron.ca] has quit []
21:32 < dmacks> pdb's healed
21:32  * akh meant no xorg binaries.  ;-)
21:33 < griff> ... that is unfortunate I suppose
21:33 < dmacks> Right.
21:33 -!- vasi [~vasi@modemcable133.147-70-69.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #fink
21:33 < griff> couldn't I compile from src?
21:33 < griff> not that that was entirely successful before
21:34 < griff> xfree86 just refused to let me use xorg
21:34 < griff> and took a long time to die... I fear I may have done something irreperable, or at least very stupid
21:35 < vasi> arg, my irc client suck, i'll brb
21:35 -!- vasi [~vasi@modemcable133.147-70-69.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit]
21:35  * dmacks was talking orthogonally. Tried to fix a small problem, broke it worse. Reloaded it from cvs. It didn't even compile. The "apply this patch" didn't apply, and appears to have not been applyable for over a year. Schrodinbugs suck.
21:35 < akh> ugh
21:36 < drm> is that the one where you put the bug in the sealed box and don't know if its dead or live?
21:36 < zizban> ouch
21:36 < zizban> heh
21:37 < drm> alive, even
21:38 < griff> its usually a cat
21:38 < griff> uncertainty principle
21:38 -!- vasi [~vasi@modemcable133.147-70-69.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #fink
21:38 < zizban> heisenberg is one of my heroes
21:38 < dmacks> Precisely. The code existed as a superposition of "works" and "doesn't work" until I examined it. Then it settled into a single state. "broken" alas.
21:39 < griff> so the waveform collapsed?
21:39  * drm sighs
21:39 < griff> or in another universe it does work?
21:39 < dmacks> Yup, the waveform, and perhaps a server or too also. Though SF's "works" component is always pretty small anyway.
21:40  * dmacks awaits any evidence that a universe exists at all where SF doesn't really suck.
21:41 -!- dsias [~dsias@69-167-113-11.atlsfl.adelphia.net] has joined #fink
21:41 < griff> if no one "examined SF" wouldn't it cease to suck?
21:41 < dmacks> We'll never know.
21:42 < akh> dmacks  it's the universe where only 1% of computers use Windows.
21:42 < griff> nice
21:42 < griff> Then SF would drown in certainty
21:43 < dmacks> Oh it's already certainly *something*...
21:44 < griff> perhaps if we could worry about its position as opposed to its speed...
21:44 < dmacks> [gmane's msgs from the past two weeks are gradually reappearing]
21:45 < dmacks> hehe
21:45 < griff> do you think linux benefits from the massive marketshare of micro$?
21:46 < vasi> akh, i ran 'make' in xml/ and all the 'news' stuff seems to be changed, is that wrong or normal?
21:46 < griff> that there is a virtue in its rarity? a robustness?
21:47 < akh> vasi:  it happens
21:47 < drm> vasi: that always happens
21:47 < drm> its a flaw in the build system IMHO
21:47 < vasi> i always get confused changing docs :-(
21:47 < drm> but since i don't understand the build system in the slightest...
21:47 < drm> vasi: best to run "cvs up" in xml before you start
21:48 < vasi> i thought i did that
21:48 < akh> griff: It may at that--skim out the lower half of the distribution and all...
21:48 < dmacks> Also 'make clean'
21:48 < drm> ah... that's a good hint, dmacks
21:48 < drm> thnaks
21:49 < vasi> brb
21:49 -!- vasi [~vasi@modemcable133.147-70-69.mc.videotron.ca] has quit []
21:49 < griff> :)
21:49 < dmacks> I also always does 'make' in the dir I changed, so I don't have to regenerate all the crap I didn't edit.
21:49 < akh> yup
21:49 < dmacks> drm: There's a known bug wherein 'make' sometimes dumps its output to STDOUT instead of a file when certain intermediate files get left behind.
21:50 < drm> never experienced that one
21:52 < dmacks> drm: You know about LANGUAGES yes?
21:52 -!- Unfun [~joe@dsl081-050-056.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #fink
21:53 < Unfun> does anyone know how to rectify a volume that doesnt support symlinks?
21:53 < akh> Unfun: http://fink.sourceforge.net/faq/usage-fink.php?phpLang=en#non-admin-installer
21:54 < Unfun> akh much appreciated
21:54  * akh checks to make sure that's up to date.
21:54 < akh> Looks right.
21:57 < drm> dmacks: yes
21:57 < drm> dmacks: there was a period of time when the japanese source file was bad, and one had no choice but to use LANGUAGES
21:58 < griff> shall I wait until vasi is done, or does anyone else think they might be able to help me (I've tried update all again, got a an error requesting installation of libgettext3-dev which I have done, and I get a further error claiming I haven't installed it)?
21:59 < griff> the faq mentions this, and says it should have "hopefully" been fixed in 0.2.5
21:59 < drm> griff: in a big update, often the -dev packages have to get swapped in and out, and fink doesn't do that gracefully
21:59 < griff> so should I try doing them individually?
22:00 < drm> when a build or update dies, install the most recent thing it was trying, and then go back to the big install
22:00 < dmacks> Don't try to install "what it says is missing", install what it tried to build that needed the missing pkg.
22:00 < drm> you might have to do this a number of times
22:00 < griff> ok
22:02 < griff> so in my case : fink install glib2?
22:03 < zizban> yes
22:03 < drm> haven't looked at your error log, but if that is the thing whose buildlock broke, yes
22:03 < griff> thanks
22:03 < zizban> didn't we fix the buildlock problem?
22:04 < drm> zizban: yes, in 0.24.9
22:05 < drm> (which isn't released yet :)
22:05 < zizban> ah
22:13 < griff> may I ask what a buildlock is and why I've never seen it when using linux?
22:13 < drm> griff: its a fink device to make sure that you have the correct -dev packages installed at the time they are needed
22:13 < drm> griff: before we had buildlocks, builds would die (or compile incorrectly) due to the wrong -dev packages
22:13 < griff> oh. that's intelligent
22:13 < drm> it only happens during a big, multiple-package build
22:13 -!- vasi [~vasi@modemcable133.147-70-69.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #fink
22:13 < akh> griff: Part of the motivation is to keep said -dev packages from being uninstalled by a second "fink install"
22:13 -!- RangerAway [~ranger@cpe-024-168-176-124.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #fink
22:13 -!- Topic for #fink: Have a question? Check the FAQ: http://fink.sf.net/faq || Latest Installers: 0.6.4 (10.2), 0.7.2 (10.3), 0.8.0 (10.4) || Fink 0.24.8: Coma Berenices
22:13 -!- Topic set by akh [] [Sat Jul 30 16:39:10 2005]
22:13 [Users #fink]
22:13 [ Airo     ] [ drm         ] [ kane-xs  ] [ Melian   ] [ pogma     ] [ usata ] 
22:13 [ akh      ] [ dsias       ] [ kapowaz  ] [ mprentice] [ RangerAway] [ zizban] 
22:13 [ BleedAway] [ emp         ] [ kito     ] [ msachs   ] [ regeya    ] [ zorton] 
22:13 [ cirdan   ] [ eno-away    ] [ KraMer   ] [ muesli   ] [ RLD_osx   ] 
22:13 [ Clef     ] [ griff       ] [ lisppaste] [ Murr     ] [ runelind  ] 
22:13 [ cmeme    ] [ gzl         ] [ mcp      ] [ opsis    ] [ swix_     ] 
22:13 [ das_     ] [ htodd       ] [ mee_bot  ] [ pawz_    ] [ uncon     ] 
22:13 [ dmacks   ] [ JosephSpiros] [ megahal  ] [ pnorman  ] [ Unfun     ] 
22:13 -!- Irssi: #fink: Total of 43 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 43 normal]
22:13 -!- Channel #fink created Sun Aug  3 18:57:20 2003
22:14 < drm> griff: no, the order is determined by dependencies
22:14 < drm> RangerAway!
22:14 < akh> fix kaddressbook!
22:14 < dmacks> You (as an end fink user) have no control over which libversion gets used.
22:15 < drm> akh: hush, you are supposed to start with 'welcome back'
22:15 < akh> That's my way of saying it.  ;-)
22:15 < akh> !wb RangerRick
22:15 < Melian> Welcome back RangerRick, o lonely traveller amongst the TCP/IP packets of chaos.
22:15 -!- vasi [~vasi@modemcable133.147-70-69.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #fink
22:15 < griff> ?... my sister used to get that magazine...
22:16 < akh> That's better.
22:16 < griff> I liked the cartoons
22:16 -!- vasi [~vasi@modemcable133.147-70-69.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit]
22:16 < griff> I was just wondering what algorithm you used to decide what order to build packages in
22:17 < drm> griff: RangerRick is the IRC nick (and email addy) of one of the fink core members
22:17 -!- vasi [~vasi@modemcable133.147-70-69.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #fink
22:17 < griff> (glib2 just finished)
22:17 < drm> griff: do you really want to know? :)
22:17 < drm> vasi: STOP THAT :)
22:17 < griff> yeah actually
22:17 < vasi> drm, i'm trying to find a client i can stand
22:17 < drm> griff: ok, it computes all dependencies it has to build, then it puts them in alphabetical order, then it runs through the list multiple times, building everything whose dependencies have already been built
22:17 < griff> ?
22:17 < griff> why alpha order?
22:17 < dmacks> Why not?
22:17 < griff> well
22:17 < griff> for example:
22:17 < drm> griff: that step is not essential
22:18 -!- Irssi: Join to #fink was synced in 254 secs
22:18 < drm> the point is, the dependency graph is a complicated tree, but this flattens it
22:18 < griff> if half of the packages are built in libgettext and the other half are libgettext3, why not build one, and then the first half, then build the other, and then the second half
22:18 < griff> hmm...
22:18 < griff> yeah I guess it shouldn't matter
22:18 < drm> griff: because half of the package might need neon23 and half need neon24
22:19 < drm> etc etc
22:19 < griff> ..
22:19 < griff> crap
22:19 < drm> and so we have a complicated parsing to do
22:19 < drm> so we dont :)
22:19 < dmacks> Exactly:(
22:19 < griff> how many of those conflicts do you have?
22:19 < drm> at any given moment, probably less than half a dozen
22:19 < drm> we've managed several library transitions to completion
22:20 < griff> christ
22:20 < dmacks> We don't try to disentagle the web, we just follow along different branches as we get them.
22:20 < griff> well that's not so bad I guess
22:20 < griff> so how did you fix it all for the new version?
22:21 < drm> griff: since you are getting interested in the problem, we will admit that our algorithm for doing this is not ideal and the code implementing is a mess, and we are (ahem) looking for volunteers :)
22:21 < griff> oh man...
22:21 < akh> It's a great way to learn Perl.
22:22 < drm> for the new version, we just reinstall something if it is missing
22:22 < griff> you know this is only the second time I've used irc?
22:22 < dmacks> Right now several of these situations happen to relate to packages that are used by *many* others and it's a slow upgrade, so there's lots more swapping and deadlock cases than usual.
22:23 < griff> right...
22:23 < griff> (is scared)
22:23 < griff> yeah sure, why not
22:23 < drm> griff: IRC has this great thing for emotions... type /me at the beginning of a line
22:23 < griff> it'll kick my butt I guess, in a good way
22:23 < zizban> I learned Perl from a book.
22:23 < zizban> It was great 
22:23 < griff> which one?
22:23 < zizban> "Pearl in Easy Steps"
22:23 < griff> nice
22:23 < zizban> you can get it at barnes and noble
22:23 < drm> zizban: thats for gemologists
22:23 < griff> does it give you programs to write and then take it apart?
22:23 < griff> my friend and I were going to try and learn python tomorrow evening
22:23 < griff> what, pray tell, is gemology?
22:23 < vasi> griff, what would be really nice is if we could yank out our existing dep engine and replace it with an existing better one
22:23 < zizban> it starts from the basic and walks you through
22:23 < drm> griff: the study of gems? for people who misspell perl as pearl, like zizban
22:23 < vasi> such as the apt engine (in C++) or the smart-pm engine (in python)
22:23 < griff> ah...
22:23 < zizban> OH I did
22:23 < akh> ooo....gonna have a lot of unhappy users soon--new %v of oo.org!
22:23  * zizban smacks himself
22:24 < griff> should have figured that one out
22:24 < zizban> Perl In Easy Steps
22:24 < drm> akh: not a lot... just one, very vocal one
22:24 < akh> heh
22:24 < dmacks> vasi: Is there a C API for smartpm?
22:24  * griff tells them to use neooffice 
22:26 < dmacks> drm: ha
22:27 < vasi> tbh, i don't know if there's ANY api for smartpm
22:27 < dmacks> pmd
22:27 < akh> griff: I agree there.
22:27 < akh> dmacks:  no mail
22:27 < dmacks> akh: :p
22:27 < vasi> i've just been assuming that if it's written in python, there must be some way to plug in :-)
22:27 < griff> so, how do I help you guys out? do you send me a perl script and I bash my head against it for a while?
22:28 < drm> vasi: kyle moffat's libfinch was trying to write this in C
22:28 < vasi> griff, check out the 'fink' module from fink's sourceforge repo
22:28 < drm> griff: all of our source code is public
22:28 < vasi> drm, yes i know
22:28 < vasi> but why you'd write a dep engine in C, i have no idea
22:28 < zizban> yepper, get the book, look at the code
22:28 < dmacks> vasi: Ah...I've never looked under the hood of smartpm
22:29 < drm> vasi: speed
22:29 < griff> right, yes
22:29 < pogma> wasn't it objective-C ?
22:29 < griff> opensource makes sense 
22:29 < griff> but it still has this aura of:
22:29 < vasi> drm, when building kdelibs takes 6 hours, do we care if resolving the deps takes 10 or 20 seconds?
22:29 < griff> an intelligencia
22:29 < drm> pogma: possibly
22:29 < griff> who can "read code" and a plebiscite who is dependent on them
22:29 < Unfun> i think i love fink
22:29 < akh> mmmm....evo2.2.3 in experimental.  *gurgle*
22:29 < Unfun> is there an irc group i can subcribe to?
22:29 < drm> griff: but anybody can join the intelligencia with some study
22:29 < drm> Unfun: um, you are here, i think 
22:29 < Unfun> thank you.
22:29  * dmacks is gonna unleash new gnome-vfs2 tonite.
22:29 < dmacks> Bwahahahahahaha!
22:29  * drm hides
22:29  * akh phears
22:29 < drm> just confine yourself to unstable, man
22:29 < Unfun> I'm unleashing my love for Fink, can you feel it?
22:29 < akh> yup
22:29 < griff> of course in theory: but there is the scary and seemingly unintuitive land of code that I think most people, myself included, feel boggled by
22:29 < griff> I took C++ in high school
22:29 < dmacks> In keeping with drm-doesn't-know-C, I don't use gnome but am somehow becoming fink's pkg-manager and porter for it.
22:29 < Unfun> I dont think C++ was around when i was in high school
22:29 < griff> and I had a job coding in C about 4 summers ago
22:30 < akh> fink-gnome-core -> dmacks
22:30 < zizban> heh
22:30 < vasi> dmacks, if you update a package, please make yourself the maintainer
22:30 < akh> muwahahaha!
22:30 < griff> ... so how do you do it?
22:30 < dmacks> vasi: hell with thatm man.
22:30 < vasi> the whole gnome-core black hole thing is pissy
22:30 < griff> how do you update without knowing C?
22:30 < drm> dmacks: this job will become so much easier once Shlibs is properly implemented
22:30 < vasi> drm, why?
22:30 < vasi> you still have to get all the bdeps right
22:31 < griff> or port, rather
22:31 < drm> vasi: sorry, I meant "once InheritedBuildDepends and Shlibs are implemented"
22:31 < vasi> drm, ah :-)
22:32 < dmacks> deps is only about 10% of it's PITAitude.
22:33 < vasi> dmacks, maybe we should make IBD a goal for 0.26?
22:33 < akh> griff: I usually just ask here.
22:34 < griff> so someone here must know C?
22:34  * dmacks knows some C.
22:34 < drm> dmacks: really? the few gnomish packages i had to tackle were all about deps
22:34  * griff wishes he could use italics...
22:34 < vasi> i know C
22:34 < dmacks> It's mostly bit-rot problems, and a few weird layout issues.
22:34 < griff> fair enouch
22:34 < vasi> it's not C itself that's annoying, mostly all the libs
22:34 < drm> vasi, dmacks: the problem with IBD is that its gonna be yet another grafted layer on our creaky dep engine
22:35 < griff> what is a bit-rot problem?
22:35 < vasi> drm, IBD should actually not hurt the dep engine much
22:35 < dmacks> I'm not bothering to make foo2.8 depend on all otehr 2.8 libs. Just the minimum to get it working.
22:35 < zizban> whatever happened to kconger? he was the gnome guy
22:35 < drm> dmacks: yeah, but if the deps in the .info file are a half dozen instead of fifty, bitrot is much less of a problem
22:37 < vasi> the idea is that resolve_depends or something will take care of the IBD to produce a merged BuildDepends line
22:37 < akh> griff: propagating errors in updating package descriptions.
22:37 < drm> vasi: well, it has to... you have to look up what were the IBD's of packages you builddepend on
22:37 < dmacks> griff: We have foo1.0, which has a patchfile. foo goes to 1.2, 1.4, the patchfile stays unchanged because it works. The line-numbers are a bit off now and there's some fuzz, but so what?
22:37 < vasi> so as far as the dep engine is concerned, it'll never see anything
22:37 < drm> vasi: ah
22:37 < akh> zizban: operative word "was"
22:38 < zizban> ah
22:39 < griff> ... sorry I'm really confused now
22:39  * zizban is lucky his package is updated once a year and has no deps
22:39 < zizban> that's your problem, you're thinking
22:39 < dmacks> Then we ignore foo for a year. Now 1.20 is current, the .patch doesn't apply at all. It's undocumented what was supposed to be patched (conceptually).
22:39 < zizban> with fink, turn off your brain :)
22:39 < griff> oh.. so you wait for all the other developers to do your work for you
22:39 < drm> dmacks: right... so when i updated sagasu recently, from gnome 1 to gnome 2.x, i just threw out the old one and started over
22:39 < dmacks> IS the patch no-longer-needed, or has the source changed so much it must be rewritten from scratch?
22:39 < drm> dmacks: and then my big problem was deps :)
22:39 < dmacks> drm: I'm restricting myself to gnome2:)
22:39 < akh> One day Gnome 1 will be relegate to the dust of history !
22:41 < dmacks> fink-dep-check, then add all associated -dev and hope for the best?
22:41 < akh> relegated
22:41 -!- akh is now known as akh_gone
22:41 < akh_gone> nite
22:42 < zizban> nite
22:43 < drm> night
22:43 < griff> good bye
22:43 < griff> thanks
22:43 < dmacks> ta'
22:43 < griff> but don't you have to alter things for Darwin?
22:43 < griff> or at least optimize them for PPC?
22:43 < dmacks> We don't do speciifc optimization usually...just get it to build.
22:45 < griff> so what is a common "dep related problem"
22:46 < griff> for example
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22:47 < dmacks> glib2 requires gettext3. To link anything against gettext3 one also must link against libconv. But there's nothing intrinsic to glib2 that indicates the need for libiconv
22:47 < griff> ... so you have to figure that out somehow?
22:47 < drm> griff: 4 years have elapsed since darwin started, so most darwin-specific changes have been incorporated by the authors of the pkgs (or by tools like autoconf and libtool)
22:47 < dmacks> griff: yup.
22:49 < griff> so, are you guys the "authors"
22:49 < drm> no, we are the "porters"
22:49 < griff> :)
22:50 < griff> so the author of emacs is x
22:50 < drm> well, original author was richard stallman, i believe, but current authors are somebody else
22:50 < griff> and you take x's work and make sure it builds on Darwin, then release it to the starving masses?
22:50 < drm> right... fink is a collection of build scripts for packages, together with software for processing them
22:50 < griff> if the authors are responsible for "darwin-specific changes"
22:50 < drm> AND a dependency engine :)
22:50 < griff> hmm...
22:50 < griff>  fair enough
22:50 < drm> if the authors didn't make the darwin-specific changes, then we have to patch the sourcefiles they provide
22:50 < griff> right
22:50 < griff> are there many authors still making darwin specific changes?
22:50 < drm> most of this is handled by autoconf and libtool now
22:50 < griff> or have they left that all up to you guys/girsls
22:50 < drm> that is, the authors job is to write platform-independent code, and then those packages worry about the platform-specific details
22:50 < griff> do they alter the actual source code?
22:50 < griff> ahhhh
22:50 < drm> they are used by authors to generate platform-independent code, basically
22:50 < griff> so as long as its *nix "compliant" 
22:50 < drm> well, autotools-compliant :)
22:50 < griff> then your autoconf or libtool should make it "Darwin-specific"
22:50 < drm> not everybody wants to go The Autotools Way
22:50 < griff> I suppose that has optimization issues...
22:50 < drm> right...the first step in building a package is usually a command "./configure"... which runs a script that determines what the platform is and what its properties are
22:50 < drm> that script is made by autoconf or maybe automake
22:50 < griff> yeah I've compilied from source before
22:50 < griff> I think that's what #$&(*&#$'ed my xorg
22:50 < griff> ;)
22:50 < drm> quite possibly :)
22:50 < griff> I've got ubuntu on another machine
22:50 < drm> griff: i should explain that fink's philosophy is to remove some flexibility in favor of predictibility... every fink package should build the same on everybody's system
22:50 < griff> I've had more source-compiling success over there
22:50 < vasi> mmm ubuntu is nice :-)
22:50 < vasi> fink and ubuntu aren't very different....we both use debian tools, changing things as necessary
22:50 < vasi> we just have a different package-built-tool
22:50 < drm> griff: our main competitor, the darwinports project, has a different philosophy... it is more flexible, but therefore requires more expertise of its users
22:51 < griff> ohhh... I didn't understand you guys were in competition
22:51 < zizban> nah
22:51 < drm> sorry, i shouldn't have said "competitor"... should have said "alternative"
22:51 < drm> or something
22:51 < zizban> we're much, much better :)
22:51 < griff> but of course 
22:51 < griff> so you guys are more reliable, and they're more cutting-edge-but-don't-blame-us-if-i-fries-you?
22:51 < drm> what's ironic is that apple's philosophy has historically been to restrict users freedom of action a bit, in favor of predictability... yet darwinports was founded by some apple guys :)
22:51 < griff> *it
22:51 < zizban> heh
22:51 < griff> sorta the difference between the "nightly cvs" and the "stable release"
22:51 < drm> yeah
22:51 < griff> maybe they had a midlife crisis
22:52 < griff> it seems as though jobs has one every time another version of X comes out
22:52 < zizban> yepper
22:52 < zizban> there are some great guys in DP. They should be here :)
22:52 < drm> steve-o is just one big midlife crisis :)
22:53 < zizban> heh
22:54 < griff> does DP follow the cvs/apt get route for distribution?
22:54 < griff> or do they have their own DPcommander ?
22:54 < drm> they have had different GUI's at different times... i'm not sure of the current status
22:55 < dmacks> Dp isn't so much "more cutting-edge" (higher versions) than just they let each user do more customized stuff with the pkg builds.
22:55 < zizban> there is a third party one
22:56 < zizban>  "Port Authority"
22:56 < drm> zizban: well, FC is third party also
22:57 < zizban> ah true
22:57 < drm> although the third party went to sleep :)
22:57 < griff> ?
22:57 < griff> I think I've gotten sick getting off a bus there...
22:58 < drm> FinkCommander was developed by a different group
22:58 < dmacks> zizban: So I can take the ferry to Staten Island and get by packages updated all at once?
22:58 < griff> they must like you guys :)
22:58 -!- dmacks [~dmacks@dmacks.active.supporter.pdpc] has quit ["leaving"]
22:59 < griff> that was abrupt
22:59 < zizban> dmacks: you got it :)
22:59 < griff> presumably it isn't suggested to use both fink and DP?
22:59 < drm> griff: you can do it
22:59 < drm> but very few people do
23:00 < drm> there could be occasional problems
23:00 < griff> is there any reason to?
23:01 < drm> no, unless each of them has a package missing in the other, which you can't be without
23:01 < griff> is there much that doesn't overlap?
23:01 < zizban> you tend to get a lot of duplicates
23:01 < drm> there is so much overlap that the two projects keep a common collection of sourcefiles
23:01 -!- Murr [~neeri@A17-202-20-71.apple.com] has quit [Connection timed out]
23:02 < griff> fair enough
23:02 < griff> do any of you guys use DP?
23:02 < drm> i have used it in the past, but am not currently using it
23:02 -!- opsis [~ryan@dsl-6-17.cofs.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
23:02 < griff> ... I just looked at their (rather nice site) and found my way to OpenDarwin
23:02 < griff> is that the opensource version of Darwin? 
23:02 < drm> right... opendarwin is an umbrella organization for various darwin-related open source projects
23:02 -!- zizban [~zizban@24-52-0-219.sbtnvt.adelphia.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
23:03 < griff> and since it works for x86, isn't that already the "magic intel port" or does aqua still not transfer
23:03 < drm> the opendarwin project has made complete releases of darwin... what apple provides directly is just sourcefiles for the open compoenents, and their patches
23:03 < drm> griff: aqua is a whole nother thing
23:03 < griff> but darwin is the core right?
23:04 < drm> but the fact that they've had darwin working on x86 for years makes some of us not surprised that aqua was ported too
23:04 < griff> or is that a small part of whatever NextStep developed?
23:04 < drm> darwin is a complete Unix, but without graphics or sound
23:04 < drm> those are part of aqua
23:04 < drm> or you can run X11
23:05 < griff> ... so aqua is equivalent to gnome or kde?
23:05 < drm> (in the darwin context, or with aqua)
23:05 < drm> yeah, sort of
23:05 < griff> what's different?
23:06 < drm> both of those are build on top of X11... the underlying windowing technology is shared... but aqua uses its own
23:06 < drm> and a lot of the components of gnome or kde are separete apps in OS X
23:08 < griff> so aqua is, in fundamental terms, an alternative to x11
23:08 < griff> but not opensource, and with more commercial apps?
23:08 < drm> right
23:08 < vasi> i use darwinports occaisonally...it's unfortunately hard to use at the same time as fink
23:09 < drm> vasi: because of paths?
23:09 < msachs> vasi: Open up a second terminal window.
23:09 < msachs> That'll stop the "finportk" mishmashes...
23:09 < vasi> msachs, actually i have a 'dports' script in my bash profile that switches the paths around
23:09 < griff> ... is quartz more accurately the x11 alternative or is it just a graphics thing?
23:09 < msachs> Mm.
23:09 < drm> quartz is the graphics engine
23:10 < drm> the high level x11 calls correspond to things in the acqua API i think
23:10 < griff> ... what is x11?
23:11 < msachs> I think of Aqua as being analogous to GTK.
23:13 < griff> the "gimp" part of Gtk seems a little misleading then
23:13 < griff> it's needed for kde and gnome right?
23:13 < drm> does kde use gtk or did they reimplement?
23:13 < drm> msachs: i'm starting to run into packages which compiled ok with xcode 2.0 but are broken with 2.1
23:14 < drm> i guess you already know this, from some of your comparisons
23:14 < msachs> drm: Which ones?  I submitted patches for all the ones I was able to build.
23:15 < drm> ftp-tls, libgtop2
23:15 < msachs> Which doesn't mean they got applied...
23:15 < drm> "array type has incomplete element type"
23:15 < msachs> Yeah, that's the biggie.
23:16 < msachs> I checked in the ftp-tls on June 13th per maintainer request.
23:16 < drm> unstable only?
23:16 < msachs> Never got a response to the libgtop2 patch, it may not have gotten applied.
23:16 < msachs> Correct.
23:17 < drm> if you send me the libgtop2 patch, i will apply it
23:18 < msachs> Sent.
23:18 < drm> thanks
23:18 < msachs> np
23:20 < griff> ... ironically, I now have a problem compiling Gtk+2
23:21 < drm> g'night all
23:21 -!- drm [~drm@65.210.36.227] has quit ["Leaving"]
23:21 < msachs> 'night, drm
23:24 < griff> ... sorry to have so many questions, but it says my version of libfreefype (6.3.8) is too high (wants 6.3.5)
23:32 < vasi> griff, did you uninstall xorg and install something else?
23:33 < griff> I've installed glib2 since we last discussed my inability to compile packages
23:33 < griff> and I had reinstalled xorg as per your suggestion
23:33 < griff> I then installed ccache
23:33 < griff> then tried update all
23:33 < griff> which died on glib2
23:33 < griff> which I then tried on its own
23:33 < griff> which worked
23:33 < griff> and then tried update all again
23:33 < griff> which failed on Gtk2
23:33 < griff> which I tried on its own, which took forever, and then failed
23:33 < vasi> wanna lisppaste the error?
23:33 < griff> i can give you another 
23:33 < griff> ;)
23:33 < griff> thanks so much
23:33 < griff> I really appreciate it
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23:35 < lisppaste> griff pasted "Gtk+2 attacks!" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/10447
23:37 < vasi> what does otool -L /sw/lib/gtk-query-immodules give ya?
23:37 < vasi> er, add a -2.0 to the end of that
23:38 < griff> w/ or w/o a space?
23:38 < vasi> without
23:38 < vasi> otool -L /sw/lib/gtk-query-immodules-2.0
23:38 < vasi> ack, uh bin instead of lib
23:38 < griff> says  it "can't open file"
23:38 < griff> no such fiile
23:38 < vasi> otool -L /sw/bin/gtk-query-immodules-2.0
23:38 < griff> okydoky hold on
23:38 < griff> :)
23:38 < vasi> sorry!
23:38 < vasi> also, search your buildlog for any '-o gtk-quey-immodules-2.0'
23:39 < griff> hey, I gratefull for the help ;)
23:39 < griff> woah its big
23:39 < griff> should i lisp it?
23:42  * griff will lisp it anyway
23:43 < lisppaste> griff annotated #10447 with "tada" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/10447#1
23:43 < griff> hold on
23:44 < vasi> well that's weird....try 'fink rebuild gtk+2'
23:45 < griff> ok
23:45 < griff> oi... something tells me this will take a while
23:57 -!- regeya [~shane@adsl-sp3-cdale176.micgi.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
23:59 -!- regeya_ [~shane@adsl-sp3-cdale176.micgi.com] has joined #fink
--- Log closed Wed Aug 03 00:00:37 2005