--- Log opened Thu Aug 04 00:00:43 2005
00:03 < dmacks> Does Apple's X11 or x.org have libXdamage or libXfixes?
00:08 -!- Feanor [~astrange@feanor.developer.opendarwin] has quit [Connection timed out]
00:58  * pogma reads bank statement - "interest rate: 0.0010%"
00:58 < pogma> That'll make me rich soon :)
00:59 < dmacks> At least it's a positive number.
01:01 < pogma> well bank charges amout to 25,000 yen per annum
01:02 < pogma> so you're better off stuffing cash into your futon
01:03 < knghtbrd> LOL
01:05 < dmacks> As a bonus, the extra stuffing means you can but a flimsier one and save money that way. You could even calculate that as an interest rate.
01:05 < dmacks> s/but/buy/
01:08 < knghtbrd> http://www.bluesnews.com/screenshots/games/quake4/20050803/q4_groupd_12.shtml
01:08 < knghtbrd> "You have ten seconds to comply."
01:17 < dmacks> pogma: If I want to know "all libs that a lib would want to link" for some arbitrary lib, am I better off parsing the dependency_libs in the .la file, or is there some fancy libtoolish way?
01:18 < pogma> looking at dependency_libs isn't fancy enough for you?
01:18 < pogma> no other way
01:18 < dmacks> Okay.
01:19 < dmacks> Having gotten burned by incompatible formatting changes to pkgconfig, I want to make sure there isn't some Official Way before I start messing around manually:)
01:21 < pogma> dependency_libs must always be parsable by a shell
01:22 < pogma> it can't be changed too much
01:22 < pogma> oops, late for wrok...
01:29 < earth> hurum.. so I think I've followed all the instructions for how to get unstable packages installed and I still am having zero luck getting kmail to install (no package found) on osx4
01:30  * earth goes to read again
01:31 < earth> is the 'transitional' for osx4 not super worky?
01:31 < knghtbrd> I use it?
01:32 < earth> looking at this: http://fink.sourceforge.net/pdb/package.php/kmail
01:32 < dmacks> It is worky-worky. "transitional" refers to some compiler games we play to maintain backward-compatibility with 10.3 instead of using the New One in 10.4.
01:32 < earth> am I mis-reading that ?
01:32 < earth> if you're on 10.4, could you type "fink info kmail" ?
01:33 < earth> well, i guess, only if you have unstable in your conf
01:33 < earth> maybe I don't understand the distinction between the two major columns
01:33 < earth> do I have to do something special to get the cvs stuff to show up?
01:34 < dmacks> Did you 'fink selfupdate' after fiddling with your Trees line?
01:35 < earth> yup
01:35 < dmacks> (rsync and cvs contain identical package sets, just different access methods; selfupdate is how you download those package descriptions)
01:35 < earth> I also blew out the whole /sw and started over from scratch after it didnt work the first time
01:35 < earth> ok
01:35 < earth> I am just trying to transition from 10.3 (installed osx4 yesterday)
01:36 < earth> and have the kde stuff all fink'd on 10.3, but am just not getting anywhere on kmail, is there some other way to check to make sure it actually exists?
01:36 < dmacks> (if sf.net were responding, I could help interpret the table:(
01:36 < earth> :) yeah, it was acting slow and bad earlier for me as well
01:38 < dmacks> 10.4T/unstable has kmail-3.4.1-22
01:39 < dmacks> Could you lisppaste your fink.conf file?
01:40 < earth> is there something particularly relevant outside the Trees line?
01:40 < dmacks> Also, what does 'ls -l /sw/fink/dists' say?
01:40 < dmacks> Distribution. SelfUpdateMethod might be relevant. Also want to make sure there isn't some silly tyop in Trees.
01:40 < dmacks> (you can remove mirror and proxy info if you like)
01:42 < lisppaste> earth pasted "problems getting kmail" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/10479
01:42 < dmacks> What's the exact command you are using to try to install kmail?
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01:43 < dmacks> Need to see that "ls -l" *without* the trailing slash. It's a symlink that sometimes gets mis-set.
01:43 < lisppaste> earth annotated #10479 with "kmail problems" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/10479#1
01:43 < lisppaste> earth annotated #10479 with "ls -la /sw/fink/dists" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/10479#2
01:44 < earth> fink install kmail 
01:44 < dmacks> Your Trees is wrong...you added unstable/main but forgot unstable/crypto
01:44 < dmacks> (pdb webpage notes that kmail is Section:crypto)
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01:45 < earth> ack
01:45  * earth throws self off bridge
01:45 < earth> well, that would do it
01:45 < dmacks> Ya.
01:47 < earth> well, there it goes
01:48 < earth> thank you, i am unsure how I made that error and then didn't see it
01:49 < dmacks> Lotta technical probably-not-very-meaningful-to-you text...easy to miss stuff like that.
01:49 < dmacks> You're welcome:)
01:55  * earth is celebrating his joining the world of broadband (albeit comcast-flavor)  with trying to reinstall all his fink packages and upgrading to osx4
01:58 < dmacks> mmmm.....broadband.....
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03:44  * earth continues to build kde
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05:23 < earth> I don't see an answer to this on the fink pages, but could someone give me a hint as to why there isn't more distribution of some of these in binary form instead of as source? my background is freebsd, but everytime I compile the window managers, I think "good god, the barrier to using these is so high.. there must be a better way"
05:25 < chris01> earth: the most important reason is lack of resources in the Fink community.
05:26 < chris01> having said this, there is work going on to provide a more automated way to build binaries
05:26 < chris01> which would enable Fink to provide binaries even for unstable packages.
05:28 < earth> makes sense.. but people build the things, what stops people from uploading binaries that they've compiled, say people who are 'trusted' within the community, whatever that means ? 
05:28 < earth> are there reasons beyond "need a good web ui to allow that" ? like the complexity of packaging up shared libraries?
05:31  * earth prays that it completes the build
05:44 < earth> it may simply be that this sort of system is just not well suited to things like window managers / desktop suites like gnome/kde 
05:49 < chris01> earth: it's more than just the ui. There is a ui for Fink, btw: FinkCommander
05:49 < earth> right
05:50 < chris01> it's more about the complexity of things depending on different versions of shared libraries etc. etc.
05:50 < earth> ok
05:50 < earth> the requirements lists are pretty extreme
05:50 < chris01> what are you building?
05:51 < earth> trying to get to kmail, which is part of kde
05:51 < chris01> aha, i see.
05:51 < chris01> if you have problems ask RangerRick.
05:51 < earth> yeah, for the simple applications, fink/darwinports work pretty well
05:51 < earth> hehe
05:51 < earth> I suspect he doesnt need a lot of complaints.
05:52 < earth> last time, before I had thicker broadband, it took over 24 hours to build kmail.  i dont know how long this will take, but quite a while.  that isn't anyone's fault
06:04 -!- Feanor [~astrange@dsl-80-44-101-63.access.as9105.com] has joined #fink
06:04  * earth yawns and checks the build
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06:23 < r0sk> Hi
06:23 < r0sk> How can I change Binary Distribution to CVS/rsync dist?
06:24 -!- adrinux [~adrinux@cpc1-cowc1-3-0-cust131.renf.cable.ntl.com] has joined #fink
06:24 < r0sk> I've downloaded 0.8.0 and search by "quanta" to install gets 0 results
06:24 < r0sk> http://fink.sourceforge.net/pdb/package.php/quanta
06:25 < r0sk> only avaiable on "unstable" branch
06:25 < r0sk> How can I choose branch?
06:28 < adrinux> rtm r0sk 
06:29 < earth> did you add the unstable entries to your trees: ?
06:29 < r0sk> adrinux, Im reading it now
06:29 < r0sk> earth, not yet, I dont see the entries in the faq
06:30 < earth> http://fink.sourceforge.net/faq/usage-fink.php?phpLang=en#unstable
06:34 < r0sk> deb file:/sw/fink local main
06:34 < r0sk> deb file:/sw/fink stable main crypto
06:34 < r0sk> deb file:/sw/fink unstable/main unstable/crypto                                 
06:34 < r0sk> three trees are right?
06:35 < adrinux> I count 7 there, but yes
06:35 < adrinux> or maybe 5
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06:43  * earth compiles the kitchen sink
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07:44  * adrinux recompiles the kde sink
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09:00 < cirdan_> mornin
09:00 -!- cirdan_ is now known as cirdan
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09:24 < pogma> hi cirdan 
09:34 -!- ringerc [~craig@dsl-202-72-144-62.wa.westnet.com.au] has quit ["zzzz"]
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09:43 -!- You're now known as RangerRick
09:52 < akh> mmm...food is always better when it's free.  ;-)
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09:56 < vasi> !seen drm
09:56 < Melian> drm <~drm@dirac.cgtp.duke.edu> was last seen on IRC in channel #fink, 16h 9m 13s ago, saying: 'he broken'.
09:57 < vasi> thanks Melian
09:57 < Melian> bitte, vasi
09:57  * akh thinks we should just release 0.24.9 straight to stable and skip all that pesky "testing"  ;-)
09:57 < akh> (not really)
09:58  * vasi wishes cirdan would finally get around to testing the bugfix he *asked* me for
09:59 < vasi> so what are we gonna name 0.25.x after?
09:59 < vasi> brb
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10:06 < akh> It's a shame we can't move libgettext3 to stable _before_ the swap stuff is in place.
10:06 < vasi> akh, well we *can*
10:06 -!- dalibor [~dalibor@swspm1500.pd.mpi-sws.mpg.de] has joined #fink
10:06 < vasi> but users will see much breakage
10:06 < vasi> and whine
10:06 < akh> Yeah
10:06 < vasi> and it'll all be your fault ;-P
10:07 < akh> I withdraw the suggestion.
10:07 < akh> Let us never speak of it again.
10:07 < vasi> better :-)
10:08 < vasi> akh, are you familiar at all with other distributions? do you know how they handle the whole -ssl mess?
10:08 < akh> I know Debian just enables _ssl in everything now.
10:09 < vasi> really?
10:09 < akh> But that's an OS, so they don't have the redistribution cruft to worry about.
10:09 < cirdan> sure they do
10:09 < cirdan> they redist it all
10:10 < cirdan> vasi yeah, well
10:10 < vasi> (doesn't look like it's in gnome-vfs, for example)
10:10 < cirdan> bbl
10:11 < akh> vasi:  AFAiCT they don't do separate -ssl and non-ssl versions.  I don't think any of the Linuxen that I've tried do.
10:13 < vasi> ah ok, they use gnutls instead of ssl in gnome-vfs
10:13 < akh> ah
10:13 < cirdan> akh: /Developer/Tools/uninstall-devtools.pl
10:13 < cirdan> :-)
10:13 < cirdan> see if that clears the cruft
10:13 < cirdan> from -users
10:13  * akh did that when I upgraded.
10:13 < cirdan> ah
10:13 -!- drm [~drm@m015f36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #fink
10:13 < cirdan> pl, bbl
10:13 < drm> q
10:13 < akh> ?
10:14 < vasi> hey drm
10:14 < drm> hi vasi
10:14 < vasi> dmacks and i have been discussing InheritedBuildDepends on the wiki
10:14 < drm> ah, i'll have a look
10:15 < vasi> also, as i posted to one of the lists (-devel?) i'd like to get 0.24.9 out the door soon
10:15 < drm> yes, i agree with your msg in every respect
10:16 < vasi> great :-)
10:16 < vasi> but yeah, we'll be doc'ing most of our work there
10:16 < vasi> just so ya know
10:16 < drm> cool
10:16 < akh> And if people want, they can download snapshots, too.
10:16 < drm> BTW, in my more optimistic moments i think i might build the 10.4 tree early next week
10:17 < akh> wow--that's optimism all right.  ;-)  Without using buldfink?
10:17 < drm> "build" means "create a new tree", not "build all the pkgs in it"
10:17 < akh> Ah--gotcha
10:17 < vasi> drm, ok
10:18 < drm> we need a 0.24.9 for that, too
10:18 < vasi> we still have many divergent opinions on what to tell users 
10:18 < vasi> for 'how to upgrade'
10:18 -!- shres [~sshreyas@202.144.86.147] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
10:18 < RangerRick> I suggest, "suck it"   ;)
10:18 -!- adrinux_out [~adrinux@cpc1-cowc1-3-0-cust131.renf.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
10:18 < chris01> drm: will the new 10.4 bindist contain libgettext3?
10:18 < RangerRick> but then, what do I know?  I'm just a whacko elitist
10:18 < vasi> heh
10:18 < akh> RangerRick: But that's what we always say.
10:18 < drm> well, the first phase is going to be "fink developers can help us test by BLAH"
10:18 < vasi> drm, wait....are we going to *release* soon? or just start testing?
10:18 < drm> chris01: i'm not making a bindist yet, just a new tree
10:19 < akh> chris01: It could go to stable, though--since 0.24.9 is a necessary condition.
10:19 < drm> vasi: i want the testing period to be very short, because the trees will start to diverge
10:19 < vasi> drm, good point
10:19 < akh> (once the latter is in stable)
10:19 < das_> No DRM for Apple in Intel-based Macs
10:19 < das_> drm, you aren't in the new Macs :(
10:20 < akh> lol
10:20 < drm> das_: ok... time to resign from Fink the :)
10:20 < drm> then
10:20 < RangerRick> hehe
10:20 < das_> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=158052&cid=13239204
10:20 < akh> drm:  You and your G5 will still be welcome.
10:21 < akh> I guess that may stop any rumors about running Windows on x86 Macs, then.
10:21 < drm> anyway, the point of testing will be to see if the smooth upgrade works ok
10:22 < drm> what i'm trying to do right now is to get all packages jiggered so that the only changes that have to be made in the new tree are dependencies
10:22 < drm> this is not completely possible, but close to being possible
10:22 < das_> God.
10:22 < vasi> ugh
10:22 < das_> Rob Enderle, the perpetual Apple doom-predictor:
10:22 < vasi> poor drm :-(
10:22 < das_> Industry pundit Rob Enderle says that both Linux and Apple are unlikely to benefit if Microsoft's Windows Vista is a Dud, according to his latest column. "In the end it will come down to Microsoft and their partners' ability to build and sustain
10:22 < das_> demand. If they can't -- and either Linux or Apple can address their current shortcomings -- they could lose share. This is unlikely. What is more likely to happen is that people will just stick with what they are running. Under that scenario it is
10:22 < das_> very likely the press coverage for Microsoft will look a lot like the press coverage now does for Sun. If they can drive a massive sales event for Vista, Apple might take a significant hit, the PC market would get a lot healthier, and AMD, in
10:22 < das_> particular, would get a nice shot in the arm."
10:22 < vasi> das_, please don't paste like that
10:22 < vasi> !lisppaste: url
10:22 < vasi> er...
10:22 < vasi> !lisppaste
10:22 < Melian> You can use lisppaste to paste errors at http://paste.lisp.org/new/fink , instead of flooding the channel.
10:23 < akh> drm:  Do we need to test both 10.4-trans -> 10.4 and 10.3->10.4 ?
10:23 < drm> probably, akh
10:23 < vasi> akh, i think both, because we'll still have users upgrading
10:23 < akh> Yeah--I've got a 10.3 setup that I can clone for test purposes.
10:24 < akh> (since I need to keep it)
10:24 < drm> we have to think a bit about that code that should go into fink for the upgrading
10:24 < vasi> akh, can you try to work on an upgrade document?
10:24 < vasi> users have gotten very confused about past upgrades
10:24 < akh> Once I know what the methodology is, sure.
10:24 < akh> I've already updated the "Upgrade matrix" to the current status quo.
10:24  * drm will start a wiki item about this
10:25 < vasi> we need specific instructions how to upgrade from 10.3, from 10.4-T....
10:25 < akh> Right
10:25 < akh> Just like always.  ;-)
10:25 < vasi> we also need to let users know that until their first successful update-all, things might be in a broken state
10:25 < vasi> heh
10:25 < drm> hopefully, the instructions are gonna be something like "fink selfupdate; fink update-all"
10:26 < vasi> (and then repeat until the update-all completes successfully ;-)
10:26 < drm> yes
10:26 < vasi> sorry i'm so hung up over that
10:26 < drm> although, since they will have 0.24.9, that shouldn't be as much of an issue
10:26 < vasi> and sorry for apologizing, but i'm canadian so i have no choice
10:26 < drm> but indeed, the instruction should be given
10:26 < drm> vasi: hehe
10:27 < vasi> we'll probably have at least a few packages initially borked, so it's important to note
10:27 < drm> vasi: by the way, i was looking for you yesterday to discuss something with a canadian
10:27 < vasi> whazzat?
10:27 < drm> well, it would make bootstrapping a lot easier (in making a bindist dmg, for example) if the continent and country defaulted to reasonable values during bootstrap
10:28 < drm> instead of "africa/first-country-alphabetically-in-africa"
10:28 < drm> but i was wondering if my canadian colleagues would be offended by the default i had in mind :)
10:29 < vasi> heh
10:29 < vasi> doesn't OS X know what country someone says they're in?
10:29 < drm> i don't know... it knows the language, for sure
10:29 < vasi> (btw, half the time i tell fink i'm in the US cuz the canadian mirrors suck)
10:29 < drm> i'm not sure how to access the country
10:30 < vasi> drm, i'll look into the country stuff
10:30 < drm> ok
10:30 < vasi> would be cool to auto-detect it :-)
10:30 < drm> yeah
10:30 < vasi> i'm trying to look into what debian does about crypto right now
10:30 < drm> vasi: debian abandoned having a separate crypto tree
10:30 < vasi> cuz i think the best solution for us is if we could just get rid of the main/crypto distinction
10:31 < vasi> yeah, but i'm trying to find the legal rationale
10:31 < vasi> to ensure it applies to us
10:31 < drm> i have looked at this before... seems like it probably would, if we sent a list of crypto-using packages to the state departement or some such
10:32 < akh> And then we'll have a bunch of Restrictive packages that we can't make binaries of.
10:32 < drm> akh: true enough
10:32 < akh> No KDE binaries.  Long live the conspiracy!
10:32 < vasi> er, debian makes binaries of them
10:32 < akh> Debian links to the OS-provided openssl.
10:33 < drm> yes, but there is a distinction: they are linking to an openssl provided by the system
10:33  * RangerRick could just change kde to link against the system openssl
10:33 < drm> even that is slightly shaky ground for GPL compliance
10:33 < drm> but our case is definitely not GPL compliant
10:34 < drm> we can try to have the fight again about whether to stop producing our own openssl
10:34 < RangerRick> hehe
10:34 -!- TheSin [~TheSin@iphost-64-56-130-194.edm.wiband.net] has joined #fink
10:34 < vasi> drm, i think the distinction between openssl in the system is important for license compliance
10:35 < vasi> not for export restrictions
10:35 < RangerRick> yeah
10:35 < drm> vasi: true enough
10:35 < drm> TheSin: would you be offended if, during bootstrap, fink defaulted to choosing a certain country in north america other than yours?
10:36 < drm> so if we dropped crypto, we could still have Restrictive -ssl variants
10:36 < TheSin> I wouldn't care
10:36 < vasi> drm, i think it's more likely the european folk would mind than us
10:36 < TheSin> but some ppl are like over pariotic
10:36 < drm> (although we need a mechanism for different licenses for different variants)
10:36 < drm> vasi: indeed
10:37 < drm> vasi: canadians always go along :)
10:37 < vasi> heh
10:37 < TheSin> cause we are nice :P
10:37 < TheSin> but watch out for the canadians in Quebec
10:37 < TheSin> :P
10:37 -!- regeya [~shane@adsl-sp3-cdale176.micgi.com] has joined #fink
10:37  * TheSin runs from vasi
10:38 < vasi> heh
10:38 < TheSin> :D
10:38 < TheSin> BTW vasi about the shlibs stuff
10:39 < vasi> oh yeah, go fix that :-)
10:39 < TheSin> I am aware of the problem you are talking about
10:39 < TheSin> but with reading debs causes problems in rebuilds and reinstalls
10:39 < TheSin> as well fink should be able to build deps from the info file from builddeps
10:40 < vasi> http://www.debian.org/legal/cryptoinmain
10:40  * pogma looks in
10:40 < vasi> "build deps from the info file from builddeps"?
10:40 < TheSin> hey pogma 
10:41 < pogma> Hi
10:41 < TheSin> vasi yes
10:41 < pogma> What's wrong with Apple's lib{ssl,crypto} these days?
10:41 < vasi> translate for me?
10:41 < TheSin> just cause the deps aren't in the info file doesn't mean fink isn't aware of them
10:41 < RangerRick> could just make a Non-US/ prefix for licenss[Bcould make a [B[B[Bmaybe we could add a "non-exportable" prefix to the license field
10:41 < vasi> (oh no, here we go again)
10:41 < RangerRick> and then have someone in [Band then have someone outside the US build
10:41 < RangerRick> erp
10:41 < TheSin> it shoudl be able to know the deps based on the builddep line
10:41 < RangerRick> and then have someone outside the us build those packages for the non-us bindist mirrors  :)
10:41 < vasi> TheSin, well it doesn't
10:41 < TheSin> hey RangerRick 
10:41 < RangerRick> hey TheSin 
10:41 < vasi> that's why it uses the whole Shlibs thing
10:42 < pogma> hi RangerRick 
10:42 < drm> pogma: not sure, but Max always objects if we try to throw them away
10:42 < TheSin> but it should, so if it's not that is the probper fix
10:42 < TheSin> I had it reading debs but that cause many other problems that where worst
10:42 < pogma> drm: Max won't object, he is barely involved
10:42 < vasi> TheSin, i don't get it....the whole *point* of AddShlibDeps is to calculate the deps
10:42 < pogma> (luckily he is still involved)
10:42 < RangerRick> if the objection is that we could potentially release security updates before apple, I think that objection is moot, apple's proved it updates things in a timely way
10:43 < TheSin> no the point to stop wasting maintainers time
10:43 < vasi> TheSin, clearly those deps are a subset of the BuildDeps, but we don't want to install all the builddeps when someone isn't building!
10:43 < akh> vasi:  for something more current:  http://www.debian.org/mirror/list-non-US
10:43 < pogma> and then the whole crap license issue with binaries and openssl goes away
10:43 < TheSin> since based on the builddeps the runtime deps can be deduced instead of typed again
10:43 -!- protoplasm [~protoplas@c-24-18-61-81.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #fink
10:43 < TheSin> and it adds the proper versions
10:43 < TheSin> and it can find hidden deps for the maintainer
10:43 < drm> pogma: yeah
10:43 < pogma> (I would never have pushed to use apple's libssl before that horrible event)
10:44 < TheSin> but it plus more stain on the builddeps
10:44 < TheSin> as if they are wrong you'll have different debs for the same pkg out there
10:44 < TheSin> vasi, if someone isn't building then reading the deb is right
10:44 < TheSin> and it currently does that unless someone changed it
10:44 < vasi> TheSin, that's what my patch does
10:45 < vasi> and it WASN'T done before my patch
10:45 < TheSin> cause I haven't had it fail on me at all yet and I use it for porting all the time
10:45 < TheSin> to get a correct depend line
10:45 < vasi> TheSin, did you try my test case?
10:45 < TheSin> no haven't had a chance
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10:45 < TheSin> just getting back to work ATM :P
10:45 < vasi> well it illustrates the problem
10:46 < TheSin> I'm also using an older version of fink
10:46 < TheSin> so maybe it got changed
10:46 < TheSin> I'll update sometime today and test it
10:46 < TheSin> basically phase install needs to read the deb for depends and re run a dep check
10:47 < TheSin> so fink install (that needed to build first) would do two dep checks
10:47 < TheSin> one before the build using builddeps and one before install after the deb is built
10:47 < TheSin> though in that exact case it wouldn't matter since it was just built and deps can't be missing
10:48 < TheSin> anyhow I'll look into it today sometime I hope
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10:57 < vasi> TheSin, i kinda chose a different point of entry
10:57 < vasi> because the dep engine has to know about the deps, even before it gets to phase_install
10:57 < vasi> so it can calc the list of packages necessary
10:59 < TheSin> right that is why I'm suggesting adding a new dep check in phase_install
10:59 < TheSin> but since ther eis a possibility that they won't be exactly known in the very beginning it makes it difficult
11:02 < vasi> yeah, so what i did is give each packages a 'using_binary' flag
11:02 < vasi> when the dep engine sees "aha, we want to build this" it says $package->set_using_binary(0)
11:02 < vasi> and when it says "no, we don't want to build this" it uses 1 instead
11:03 < vasi> then when somebody asks for depends or provides or anything, it checks whether we're using binary for that package
11:03 < vasi> and if so, tries the .deb
11:03 < vasi> the patch just needs some polishing :-)
11:11 < TheSin> that is good way to determine it
11:12 < TheSin> but it'll still need a second check at some point, how is that handled?
11:12 < TheSin> Itunes on linux, finally, now I'm set :P
11:13 < akh> cool
11:14 < TheSin> totally, took me awhile cause I don't know crap about gij
11:16 < vasi> TheSin, why would it need a second check?
11:16 < vasi> hey, can everybody try running 'defaults read /Library/Preferences/.GlobalPreferences Country' and see if it's accurate?
11:17 < akh> Mine looks right
11:17 < TheSin> vasi, hmmm maybe it won't, just trying to think of a reason :P
11:18 < TheSin> I'm knlow linux, so it doesn't look right at all :D
11:18 < TheSin> I'm on linux
11:19 < vasi> TheSin, well ssh to your OS X box and try it
11:19 < vasi> akh, two letter code?
11:20 < akh> US
11:20 < vasi> yeah, i just wanted to make sure it doesn't do anything silly like "two letter code for Canada, then the whole name for the US"
11:20 < TheSin> yup I got CA
11:20 < akh> One more data point, anybody?
11:21 < TheSin> buller, buller, buller, anyone, buller?
11:22 < chris01> vasi: 'defaults read /Library/Preferences/.GlobalPreferences Country' -> "CH" which is correct
11:22 < vasi> great
11:22 < vasi> so now we can auto-detect country for mirrors
11:23 < akh> w00t
11:23 < TheSin> on OSX
11:23 < TheSin> what about darwin i386?
11:23 < TheSin> :P
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11:24 < vasi> they'll just have to choose
11:24 < pogma> defaults read /Library/Preferences/.GlobalPreferences Country
11:24 < pogma> JP
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11:24 < pogma> cool :)
11:24 < TheSin> totally cool
11:24 < TheSin> great find vasi
11:25  * vasi takes a bow
11:26  * pogma chops off vasi's head
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11:26 < vasi> thanks pogma :-)
11:26 < pogma> oops, sorry :-p
11:26 < akh> hehe
11:27 < TheSin> with a japanese steel katana
11:28 < vasi> whew, at least it wouldn't hurt too much
11:28 < TheSin> Speaking of which, I'm still waitting for you to ship me and Hanso Sword pogma  :D
11:28 < vasi> heh
11:28 < RangerRick> 2works for[BUS here
11:29 < TheSin> :P
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11:29 < pogma> I'm going to Canada on Sunday, I'll take it with me on the plane
11:29 < pogma> I'm sure security won't mind :)
11:29 < akh> heh--good thing you aren't going to the US.
11:29 < TheSin> sweet
11:29 < TheSin> I'll even drive to winipeg to get it :P
11:29 < TheSin> :D
11:29 < pogma> akh: well, Osaka -> Detroit -> minneapolis -> Winnipeg
11:29 < TheSin> man the things I'd do for a real katana :D
11:29 < akh> pogma:  Northwest?
11:29 < pogma> had to get a new passport for the trip because the US now insists on machine readable passports, was a pita
11:29 < pogma> akh: yup
11:29  * akh recognized the hubs.
11:29 < vasi> what's in winnipeg?
11:29 < pogma> wife and daughter
11:29 < vasi> good reason to go!
11:29 < pogma> and many in-laws
11:29 < TheSin> bring me my sword
11:29 < TheSin> ;)
11:29 < akh> pogma:  make sure to give TheSin  the sword _before_ you visit your in-laws.
11:29 < akh> ;-)
11:30 < pogma> RangerRick: was that meant to make sense?
11:32 < pogma> akh: Well, I don't have a sword to give TheSin, but don't tell him that, he may get mad
11:32 < akh> OK  :-)
11:36 < vasi> ogma, he's too much of an elitist whacko to make sense ;-P
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11:41 < TheSin> pogma, or sad :P
11:49 -!- RangerRick [~ranger@cpe-024-168-176-124.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #fink
11:49 -!- Topic for #fink: Have a question? Check the FAQ: http://fink.sf.net/faq || Latest Installers: 0.6.4 (10.2), 0.7.2 (10.3), 0.8.0 (10.4) || Fink 0.24.8: Coma Berenices
11:49 -!- Topic set by akh [] [Sat Jul 30 16:39:10 2005]
11:49 [Users #fink]
11:49 [ Airo      ] [ dalibor] [ gzl         ] [ kpaul  ] [ pawz__    ] [ swix_ ] 
11:49 [ akh       ] [ das_   ] [ htodd       ] [ KraMer ] [ pnorman   ] [ TheSin] 
11:49 [ BleedAway ] [ dmacks ] [ JosephSpiros] [ mcp    ] [ pogma     ] [ uncon ] 
11:49 [ chris01   ] [ dsias  ] [ kane-xs     ] [ mdmonk ] [ protoplasm] [ usata ] 
11:49 [ cianhughes] [ earth  ] [ kane_       ] [ mee_bot] [ RangerRick] [ vasi  ] 
11:49 [ cirdan    ] [ emp    ] [ kapowaz     ] [ megahal] [ regeya    ] [ zorton] 
11:49 [ Clef_     ] [ Feanor ] [ kito        ] [ Melian ] [ RLD_osx   ] 
11:49 [ cmeme     ] [ gecko2 ] [ knghtbrd    ] [ muesli ] [ runelind  ] 
11:49 -!- Irssi: #fink: Total of 46 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 46 normal]
11:49 -!- Channel #fink created Sun Aug  3 18:57:20 2003
11:49 -!- Irssi: Join to #fink was synced in 42 secs
11:50 < dmacks> Sweet!
11:50 < vasi> :-)
11:50 < vasi> i just removed all the files in fink/10.2-gcc3.3
11:50 < vasi> not sure why they were left there
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11:51 < dmacks> Yeah, I saw the commit...was only for HEAD though, which I know was >=10.3.
11:51 < dmacks> ...whicih was consistent with my misinformeditude.
11:54 < RangerRick> pogma: I was in the middle of typing, but my network connection was so lagged a bunch of crap escape codes showed up as part of what I was typing  :P
11:55 < pogma>  Do you think drm is persuaded to use apple's lib{ssl,crypto} ?
11:55 < dmacks> More I think about it, more I think we should *always* change $HOME in our *Script env. Otherwise weird things users do in their dotfiles could leak into their builds, and builds could write to $USER's home (hi, qt3)
11:55 < RangerRick> true
11:56 < vasi> dmacks, that's what i meant :-)
11:56 < vasi> pogma, i don't think he's convinced
11:56 < pogma> dmacks: I agree, still don't think it is a requirement for the next release though
11:56 < pogma> vasi: have to work on him some more then :)
11:56 < dmacks> pogma: 'k
11:57 < dmacks> pogma: Use the katana
11:57 < vasi> i would REALLY like to 1) get rid of non-ssl packages if possible, 2) get rid of crypto
11:57 < vasi> so i'm very convinced
11:57 < dmacks> That upgrade path is gonna blow harder than OS X transtions.
11:58 < vasi> grrr, why is the default location for bootstrap /sw *even* if there's already a /sw that fink would refuse to install in?
11:58 < vasi> dmacks, not if we get an unstable bindist up ;-)
11:58 -!- zizban [~chris@24-52-0-219.sbtnvt.adelphia.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.61 [Mozilla rv:1.7/20040617]"]
11:59 < dmacks> vasi: False. The problem is how to handle having package-names change when a user already has it installed.
11:59 -!- eno-away [~eno-away@adsl-216-100-134-212.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #fink
11:59 < vasi> dmacks, yeah....apt-get dist-upgrade takes care of that i think
12:00 < dmacks> Need an "Obsoletes:[pkgname]" field.
12:00 < vasi> oh wait, it only takes care of it if something disappears from the repo
12:00 < vasi> which never happens if the user has a .deb sitting around
12:01 < vasi> hmmm, isn't there a way to transition with dummy versions or something?
12:01 < akh> That's been the standard way, I believe.
12:02 < vasi> how's it work specifically?
12:03 < dmacks> Say foo-ssl needs to be "upgraded" to foo. Release a final foo-ssl, Depends:foo, Type:bundle
12:04 < vasi> do we ever get rid of the dummy then?
12:04 < dmacks> Nope.
12:04 < vasi> that suxors
12:04 < dmacks> If we had a specific tag in them, maybe Description automatically said "UPGRADE DUMMY", then cleanup could remove t hem.
12:05 < vasi> or Obsoletes
12:06 < vasi> dmacks, i think we made the wrong decision going to %f as a unique key
12:06 < vasi> it would be much better if fink could accept multiple packages with the same %f, where one is an installed package, one is a buildable package, one is from apt, etc
12:06 < dmacks> Obsoletes would probably just autogenerate that bundle pkg. Can't simply remove the obsoleted pkg because other pkgs could depend on it.
12:06 < dmacks> (in the example, foo would *not* conflicts/replaces:foo-ssl)
12:08 < vasi> at a certain point, other packages should have the depends removed...and then we could auto-remove orphans with IsObsolete: true?
12:09 < dmacks> right.
12:11 < dmacks> 'fink cleanup --obsolete-crap'
12:11 < vasi> heh
12:11  * chris01 is going to dance once there isn't any -ssl variant anymore...
12:11 < dmacks> !dance with chris01 
12:11 < dmacks> meh
12:12 < TheSin> fink cleanup --forget-old-unavail
12:13 < TheSin> like dpkg
12:13 < vasi> dmacks, i'm going to make bootstrap.pl try to actually choose a prefix that it won't refuse
12:13 < vasi> is /sw2, /sw3, etc an ok progression for ya?
12:14 < TheSin> I'd like /sw then /fink
12:14 < TheSin> since I like to use /fink :P
12:14 < dmacks> vasi: Yeah, though I admit to rarely doing bootstrapping...talk to drm.
12:14 < vasi> and i like /Library/Fink, but it's up to users
12:14 < TheSin> Ooo
12:14  * vasi summons drm
12:14 < TheSin> that is a nice one for sure
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12:15 < TheSin> changing /sw disables binary usage
12:15 < dmacks> Why not just "I usually use /sw but you've already got one, please pick something else"?
12:15 < TheSin> I think tha tis the reason it's the only default
12:15 < TheSin> we cause add a a check then warning and offer to move it out of the way
12:15 < vasi> dmacks, because there has to be a default for the something else
12:15 < dmacks> [*snicker*...I told 'eem we already got one...it'sa verrrry naaahce.]
12:15 < vasi> and cuz when i test bootstrapping, i want to hit <return> at every prompt
12:15 < vasi> lol
12:16 < TheSin> then it would mv /sw to /sw.old
12:16 < TheSin> ot /sw.old2
12:16 < TheSin> etc etc
12:16 < TheSin> and make a new /sw
12:16 < vasi> TheSin, let's try to be non-destructive, eh?
12:17 < TheSin> I think auto creating a /sw2 is more destructive
12:17 < TheSin> as we will be flooded with
12:17 < TheSin> why can't I apt-get now I just did a fresh install using defaults
12:17 < dmacks> Bootstrapping should not touch an existing fink installation!
12:17 < TheSin> I think dmacks idea is the best one
12:17 < TheSin> just detect it
12:18 < TheSin> warn that it will disable binary dists
12:18 < TheSin> and ask to pick something before continuing
12:18 < dmacks> Who the heck does a bootstrap in order to upgrade?
12:18 < TheSin> not me
12:19 < TheSin> maybe it should ask if they meant to upgrade and run inject instead :D
12:20 < dmacks> vasi: So the default would be "first {/sw,/swN} that doesn't exist"?
12:21 < vasi> dmacks, ok i'm turning the situations that currently exit into redo
12:21 < vasi> yeah
12:21 < dmacks> redo is a very good idea.
12:22  * dmacks is leaning slightly towards TheSin...if /sw exists, not telling what the user is really trying to accomplish here.
12:23 < dmacks> If you wind up doing automatic default to /swN, should have a loud note "NOTE: THIS IS NOT THE NORMAL PLACE FOR FINK"
12:23 < TheSin> man that is loud! :D
12:24 < dmacks> (I don't care if it's part of a prompt that defaults to "okay", or even just a msg printed as part of the normal prompt, but *something*)
12:25 < dmacks> Use  system(say)
12:27  * dmacks likes the term "The HEAD Faithful". Not quite as awe-inspring as "Wacko Elitist" though:(
12:35 < RangerRick> :)
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12:42 < akh> heh
12:42 < akh> Or "guinea pigs"
12:44 < vasi> i never thought one of my dumb changelog entries would make it to fink-users :-)
12:45 < cirdan> hehe
12:45 < cirdan> vasi: better than -biginners
12:45 < cirdan> -newbs
12:45  * cirdan renames fink begineers to -n00bs
12:50 < akh> Teach me not to read the ChangeLog in the first place.
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13:02 < vasi> woohoo, we now auto-detect the user's country/continent for mirror selecting
13:02 < akh> sweet
13:02 < vasi> um...now what was i planning to work on before drm threw that at me?
13:03 < akh> InheritedBuildDepends?
13:04 < vasi> nah, that's for 0.26
13:04 < akh> Ah
13:04 < vasi> oh yeah, yelling at cirdan
13:04 < vasi> cirdan, TEST THE DAMN PARENTESSENTIAL FIX!!!
13:07 < cirdan> heh
13:09 < vasi> c'mon, i wanna get 0.24.9 out
13:10 < vasi> and it would be good to have this fix in BEFORE we do 10.4, so we can move to nice, regular .info files for essential packages in that tree
13:10 < vasi> so just test it already
13:10 < TheSin> man Ordered a UPS from Tiger Direct and I got a 1400$ LCD TV
13:10 < TheSin> what a deal :D
13:10 < vasi> ooooh
13:11 < TheSin> I need to order more UPS s :D
13:11 < vasi> heh
13:12 < TheSin> talk about a good day to com back, might get the TV to keep :D
13:14 < vasi> woo
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13:17 < vasi> drm, got the country-checking stuff done :-)
13:18 < drm> cool
13:18 < drm> how does it work?
13:18 < vasi> there
13:19 < vasi> 's a 'Country' key i found in /Library/Preferences/.GlobalPreferences.plist
13:19 < vasi> and everybody else seems to have it too
13:19 < vasi> so i just grab that with 'defaults'
13:20 < drm> let's see... we don't want the country of the person who created the .dmg, we want the country of the person who is installing the .dmg
13:20 < vasi> er, this is for 'fink configure'
13:20 < drm> right... so its good for fink configure
13:20 < vasi> it's been a long time since i've done a binary installation
13:20 < drm> but we also would want a mechanism for use by the installer, i suppose
13:20 < vasi> where can i hook in for that?
13:21 < drm> well, the installer runs a "preflight" script, which would let you access the value
13:21 < vasi> and then do something like 'fink -y configure' ?
13:21 < vasi> seems a bit sketchy
13:21 < drm> and i think we rerun fink's postinstall command in the "postflight" script
13:22 < drm> so perhaps the postinstall script looks at a certain file on disk, and changes the country if it finds a value there?
13:22 < vasi> uh, how does it not prompt the user?
13:22 < drm> dunno the best way...
13:22 < drm> just change /sw/etc/fink.conf, perhaps
13:26 < drm> about your code: will all syscountry values match the corresponding fink values?
13:27 < drm> or is there a chance that, e.g., Deutschland is used
13:28 < vasi> it seems to always be two-letter country codes
13:28 < vasi> which is convenient for us!
13:28 < drm> ah, good
13:28 < vasi> if it's not two letters, i reject it and let through the default (nam-us)
13:29 < drm> yeah
13:29 < drm> well, this is good, anyway
13:29 < vasi> so if it changes, at least we don't do something dumb and default everyone to namibia
13:29 < vasi> or something :-)
13:29 < drm> we can think about the .dmg issue again later
13:31 < vasi> probably best to add an option to postinstall
13:32 < vasi> which forces it to do mirror-magic
13:33 -!- Murr [~neeri@A17-202-20-71.apple.com] has joined #fink
13:33 < drm> hi Murr
13:35 < Murr> hi dr
13:35 < drm> i'm having a teensy bit of trouble getting lilypond ready for the upcoming 10.4 tree
13:35 < Murr> hehe
13:36 < drm> the 10.4 tree won't have python22, so I first tried modifying the .info file of the stable version to use python23
13:36 < Murr> why should you have an easier  time with it than I had ? :-)
13:36 < drm> but this doesn't compile, for some unknown reason
13:36 < Murr> hmm
13:36 < drm> so now I am trying the unstable version
13:36 < Murr> the stable version is ancient
13:36 < drm> of course, this means bringing the ec-fonts thingy to stable
13:36 < drm> and right now that is compiling... which takes FOREVER
13:36 < drm> :)
13:37 < Murr> which shouldn't be a problem, except that it takes forever to build
13:37 < Murr> I improved the efficiency a lot, it used to take forever and a day
13:37 < drm> but will the unstable version build ok, do you think, with python23 and g++-4.0?
13:37 < drm> (i modified the info file so that it stops forcing c++-3.3)
13:38 < drm> and, is it OK to move the unstable version to stable, in this event?
13:38 < Murr> yes
13:38 < Murr> the unstable version already is set up to use pyton23 instead of 22
13:38 < drm> right... but it has an explicit c++-3.3 in it, which i took out
13:38 < Murr> and I routinely build stuff with gcc 4
13:38 < Murr> hmm
13:39 < drm> if you use the 10.4-transitional tree, g++ is set to g++-3.3 without you being aware of it
13:39 < Murr> should I test that for you?
13:39 < drm> i'm gonna test, just wanted to make sure that moving it was ok if it tests
13:39 < drm> ok
13:39 < Murr> hmm, compiler selection is sooo hard
13:39 < Murr> the unstable version is a few . releaes behind anyway
13:39 < drm> yeah, this is why we are getting rid of 10.4-transitional as soon as we can
13:40 < chris01> speaking of python:
13:40 < Murr> so it seems I can't really test things conveniently
13:40 < drm> right
13:40 < chris01> it would be good if the python packages could be updated to use db43 instead of db42
13:40 < drm> me and msachs are the only people set up to test g++-4.0, i believe
13:43 < drm> chris01: i guess that is up to the maintainer (jeff) but he is a bit overwhelmed i believe
13:43 -!- dkg [~dkg@console.dps.uibk.ac.at] has joined #fink
13:43 < dkg> hi!
13:43 < drm> hi
13:43 < dkg> is there no rc or init.d in mac os x?
13:43 < dkg> where to put start/stop scripts?
13:44 < drm> dkg: a better channel for that question is #opendarwin
13:44 < dkg> thx!
13:45 < chris01> vasi: i tested your new default mirror country selection: It did work perfectly!
13:45 < vasi> yay
13:47 < akh> Mongolia ?????\
13:47 < akh> jk
13:47 < drm> Jakarta?
13:48 < akh> heh
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13:52 < vasi> http://koke.amedias.org/2005/08/04/amaroks-bizarre-sorting/
13:54 < RangerRick> heh
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14:04 < akh> having straightened out my complier situation /me tries oo.org again.
14:23 < akh> compiler
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14:44 < vasi> sorry about that akh
14:44 < akh> np
14:45 < akh> My comment was more to reflect that I'm trying to build oo.org _again_.
14:46 -!- shres [~sshreyas@59.92.135.116] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
14:47 < akh> (though I'm tempted to rebuild anything that's not running for me)
14:48 < akh> actually, I'll pass on oo.org for now--they haven't put out a new %r, so I don't think they've got the mozilla patch stuff in place yet.
14:49 < vasi> brb
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14:51 < bmaret> hi there
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14:52 < bmaret> i am trying to compile evince and I get the following error at the link: ld: Undefined symbols: _printf$LDBLStub _sscanf$LDBLStub
14:53 < bmaret> how can I fix that ?
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15:08 < akh> bmaret: Are you using gcc3.3 or gcc4 ?
15:10 < bmaret> gcc-4.0 and g++-3.3
15:12  * bmaret is trying to build evince with gcc-3.3
15:12 < akh> I found a thread on another list that suggests that such an error shows up when mixing:  http://itdp.fh-biergarten.de/~itdp/html/mplayer-users/2005-07/msg00302.html
15:13 < bmaret> mix g++-3.3 with gcc-4.0 ?
15:14 < dmacks> C++ ABI mixup.
15:18 < bmaret> ok. I probably compiled one of the deps with g++-4.0.
15:20 -!- hennker [flullup@dsl-082-082-236-097.arcor-ip.net] has joined #fink
15:20 < dmacks> "Thanks Apple/FSF for having no way to tell a binary's ABI by inspection"
15:21 < akh> Gotta live it.
15:21 < akh> (live with)
15:21 -!- moike [~Mike@nat01-hardenburgh-ext.Rutgers.EDU] has joined #fink
15:21 < moike> hi
15:22 < akh> hi
15:22 < moike> I'm trying to install the kde-bundle-ssl and after i choose the package cadidates i get this error:
15:22 < moike> Failed: Can't resolve dependency "cctools (>= 446-1)" for package "sane-backends-1.0.15-1" (no matching packages/versions found)
15:23 < moike> I've tried the bundle-kde aswell
15:23 < bmaret> you have to install xcode
15:23 < bmaret> (and read the FAQS :-)
15:26 < moike> thanks
15:26 < bmaret> you are welcome.
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15:54 < dmacks> vasi: Regarding autoparsing .la and .pc for IBD, what kind of problem do you forsee with large build sets?
15:54 < vasi> dmacks, ok let's say we're building bundle-gnome
15:55 < vasi> so now we've got all kinds of packages with all kinds of build depends....
15:55 < vasi> and before we build ANY of them, the dep engine has to figure out what it's gonna build (unless we rewrite the whole thing)
15:55 < vasi> so it needs to know the IBDs right-away-now
15:56 < vasi> i think it's likely things will *usually* work because of the recursive nature of builds
15:56 < vasi> but i'm not sure we can guarantee that
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15:58 < _nico_> is the Developer.pkg required for the install on the xcode cd? or do i need developertools.pkg?
15:58 < vasi> i think you want DeveloperTools.pkg
15:59 < _nico_> ok, thanks
15:59 < vasi> dmacks, anyhow most packages should have almost all their BDeps become IBDs
15:59 < vasi> and that's it
16:00 < vasi> and we need to know those beforehand *necessarily*, we can't pick them up at build time
16:00 < vasi> so it doesn't save a ton of work
16:01 < vasi> (the only ones that *shouldn't* become IBDs are things like gtk-doc, intltool, scrollkeeper that are just tools)
16:01 < vasi> (and certain things that we explicitly don't want other stuff to know about, like the way gnome-vfs2-ssl hides the ssl libs)
16:05 < vasi> dmacks?
16:05 < dmacks> (sorry...phone)
16:05 < vasi> k
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16:07 < dmacks> Makes sense. I was considering that if foo-dev gets an automatic IBD inserted for bar-dev, then foo-dev also BD:bar-dev, which would be listed explicitly. OTOH, you have said that a package's IBD also becomes its own BD...it's gotta be listed *somewhere*.
16:08 < dmacks> My way would mean a packager decides "what is needed to build my package" and then fink decides what of that is also needed by packages that link against my package.
16:08 < dmacks> The other way means I have do decide myself what is needed by thinks linking against me.
16:09 < dmacks> s/do/to/
16:09 < cianhughes> guys, two questions, firstly what is the story with these conflict during builds between gettext-dev  and libgettext3-dev           
16:09 < dmacks> s/thinks/things/
16:09 < theid> dmacks: looks like the gnome-vfs2-ssl info file in unstable crypto strips out crypto functions
16:09 < dmacks> theid: ?
16:10 < cianhughes> and secondly what should my /sw/etc/apt/source.list read? (I've read Q5.31) but http://bindist.finkmirrors.net/bindist seems a little empty at the moment...
16:10 < dmacks> cianhughes: Just keep on restarting your package buildings. Future finks will be much better about automatically swapping those two as necessary.
16:10  * dmacks knows >< about bindist:(
16:11 < cianhughes> dmacks: I figured the workaround, just wondering what was the cause
16:11 < vasi> dmacks, so you're saying that a package would automagically upgrade some things from a BD to a IBD?
16:11 < dmacks> vasi: Correct.
16:11 < theid> it removes the kerberos stuff yet, and -lssl/-lcrypto from the .la
16:11 < vasi> cianhughes, we're upgrading libraries
16:11 < cianhughes> ok
16:12 < cianhughes> I'm currently using my G5 to build debs which I then sync onto my ageing powerbook G4, I am just going away and would have liked a way to get binaries directly
16:12 < dmacks> theid: The -l removal has always been performed (otherwise dependencies like "gnome-vfs2-dev | gnome-vfs2-ssl-dev" would be forbidden.
16:12 < vasi> cianhughes, if you feel like living on the bleeding age
16:12 < cianhughes> vasi: guessed as much from version numbers
16:12 < vasi> edge
16:12 < vasi> you can get a version of fink from CVS
16:12 < vasi> which has code to auto-swap them
16:12 < cianhughes> ok will do
16:13 < vasi> dmacks, that sounds doable
16:13 < vasi> that kinda transfers a lot of stuff to the swap-stage
16:13 < dmacks> (that's how pkgconfig works:)
16:13 < theid> if there's no crypto in the crypto package, why even hav it
16:14 < dmacks> The .la has nothing to do with the library's contents or functionality.
16:14 < vasi> theid, we're in the middle of Yet Another Debate About SSL
16:14 < vasi> YADASSL :-)
16:14 < theid> I haven't been around here much lately
16:14 < vasi> dmacks, that's not really true
16:14 < vasi> many packages look for -lssl, and then set HAVE_SSL or something
16:14 < dmacks> It's true enough for the case at hand.
16:15 < theid> removing -lkrb5support from the makefile?
16:15 < vasi> theid, i have no idea about that part
16:15 < vasi> dmacks, ok i think your idea *should* work
16:15 < theid> oh well, you guys are calling the shots, I've got to get back to work
16:16 < dmacks> (The ssl stuff is not exposed to anything that links against this lib)
16:16 < cianhughes> vasi: inject.pl'ing as we speak, thanks for the tip
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16:16 < vasi> but i'd like to do this staged....first we get IBD implemented, then after we make sure it works we can look at automagically bumping Bdeps into IBDs
16:17 < dmacks> hrm, that -lkrb5support removal does look suspicious.
16:17 < cianhughes> on the bindist think, are there any 10.4-transitional binary sources around at the moment?
16:17 < vasi> cuz if the second part does break the dep engine--and it's far too easy to break--i'd like to be able to say "fine, we'll leave it for <release + 1>'
16:17 < vasi> cianhughes, for unstable you mean?
16:18 < dmacks> vasi: Makes sense.
16:18  * vasi phears the dep engine :-/
16:18 < cianhughes> well unstable would be great, but I've never found these, would live with powerbook on stable if I had a bindist for those
16:18 < vasi> cianhughes, uh the stable bindist is enabled by default
16:19 < vasi> it's not it your sources.list?
16:19 < vasi> (have you installed into the normal prefix, /sw ?)
16:19 < cianhughes> well when I checked today my /sw/etc/apt/sources.list still mentioned 10.3 and http://bindist.finkmirrors.net/bindist/dists/10.4-transitional/current/main/ looks empty
16:19 < cianhughes> bar tetex
16:20 < akh> Try release/main, too.
16:20 < cianhughes> also my sources.list mentioned dl.sourceforge.net rather than bindist.finkmirrors.net, what is the deal here?
16:20 < akh> dl.sourceforge.net is borked
16:20 < vasi> we switched mirrors
16:20 < vasi> use the new one
16:20 < cianhughes> ok
16:21 < vasi>  /release has the main bindist
16:21 < vasi>  /current is just for updates
16:21 < vasi> you should have them both :-)
16:21 < cianhughes> yes have them both
16:22 < cianhughes> excuse me in advance for pasting
16:22 < cirdan> !lisppaste
16:22 < Melian> You can use lisppaste to paste errors at http://paste.lisp.org/new/fink , instead of flooding the channel.
16:23 < cianhughes> Melian: thanks, I should get that URL tatooed onto the inside of my eyelid
16:23 < Melian> bitte, cianhughes
16:23 < vasi> how are you gonna see the inside of your eyelid?
16:23 < vasi> it's dark there!
16:23 < cirdan> pastbin also works
16:23 < cianhughes> vasi: look at the sun
16:23 < cianhughes> cirdan: do expand
16:24 < cirdan> pastebin.vom
16:24 < cirdan> com
16:24 < cianhughes> ok
16:24 < cianhughes> wierd, as soon as I re-ran fink selfupdate my sources.list mentioned heanet again . . . . 
16:26 < vasi> did you follow the guidelines about above/below certain lines in sources.list?
16:26 < cianhughes> ok, does fink.conf Mirror-apt: get used to regenerate sources.list
16:27 < akh> yes
16:29 < cianhughes> vasi: this is new "Updating shared library index... done." I presume that is part of the new switching code, right?
16:29 < vasi> cianhughes, no that's something else
16:29 < cianhughes> vasi: ok i'll stop guessing
16:29 < vasi> it will eventually (when it's working) allow some dependencies to be auto-calculated
16:30 < cianhughes> does bindist.finkmirrors.net get mirrored anywhere?
16:31 < akh> I don't believe so.
16:41 < cirdan> .
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17:07 < drm> howdy msachs
17:08 < cirdan> hey
17:08 < cirdan> brb
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17:09 < drm> RangerRick, i forgot to ask how the hardcider thing went
17:11 < msachs> heya drm
17:12 < RangerRick> drm: alright, only 4 people but hopefully since we had a Real Meeting we can get more people to show  :)
17:12 < drm> msachs: i had a couple more i wanted to ask you about, but maybe the right question to ask is: can i help with chasing down the implementations of the patches you've already generated? :)
17:13 < msachs> Why don't I just forward you all of them...
17:13 < drm> msachs: the ones I have in mind right now are: contacts, ftp-tls, nget, odcctools, sam, xaos
17:13 < drm> sure
17:13 < msachs> The array type ones are pretty trivial, mostly it's code in the form:
17:13 < msachs>     struct foo bar[100];
17:13 < msachs>     struct foo { ... };
17:14 < msachs> with some code in between those two lines usually.  Just move the struct definition above the array definition.
17:14 < drm> RangerRick: well, I will try to come when I get back to town... will be California for the next academic year
17:14 < drm> msachs: ok, sounds good, but since you've already done it.. :)
17:14 < msachs> Right, right.
17:17 -!- Melian [~blootbot@pcp04356153pcs.glstrt01.nj.comcast.net] has joined #fink
17:17 < msachs> k, just sent you a bunch, the only ones from that batch which I don't appear to have are xaos and nget, let's see the status of those in my build...
17:19 < drm> xaos is there
17:19 < msachs> Oh, okay :)
17:19 < drm> and i guess some of these have already been applied
17:19 < msachs> Yeah, probably.  I think firefox at least has been.
17:20 < drm> the nget error is "integer constant is too large for 'long' type"
17:21 < msachs> Yep.  Let me see if I can put a quick patch together for that...
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17:39 < cirdan> Melian: test
17:39 < Melian> No, cirdan, you're not online any more.
17:39 < cirdan> !botsnack
17:39 < Melian> cirdan: :)
17:39 < drm> hm?
17:44 < msachs> Hm, nget built for me...
17:44 < msachs> Ah, path-prefix.
17:44 < drm> path-prefix?
17:44 < msachs> I was on transitional, it uses g++
17:44 < drm> right
17:45 < drm> but when i do it on non-transitional, i can't get either g++-3.3 or g++-4.0 versions to build
17:45 < drm> (can't recall if its the same error, however)
17:50 < msachs> Well it just built for me in non-transitional.  Maybe I need to selfupdate.
17:52 < drm> hmm...i will try again
17:53 < msachs> No, it failed for me in my build.
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18:00 < drm> well, now i'm confused
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18:12 < cirdan> heh
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18:28 < dmacks_> !seen miga
18:28 < Melian> miga <~miga@easyconnect2121138-139.clients.easynet.fr> was last seen on IRC in channel #fink, 24d 8h 36m 29s ago, saying: 'There seems to be some explanation in info files.'.
18:29 < dmacks_> RangerRick: How well do you understand the freedesktop menu specifications?
18:30 < dmacks_> New gnome stuff wants to install files in /sw/etc/xdg that conflict with kdelibs3
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19:33 < RangerRick> dmacks_: not at all
19:33 < RangerRick> I know they decided on some common menu thing
19:33 < RangerRick> but I have no idea what files are considered common, what are desktop-specific, and what should conflict
19:34 < dmacks_> heh. Excellent!
19:37 < dmacks_> If you had a .patch that adjusted MAKEFLAGS in PkgVersion.pm, you'll need to change it...the script_env setup function just got shuffled a bit.
19:39 < RangerRick> ok
19:39 < RangerRick> the only thing I do now is uncomment the thing that was commented in there
19:40 < dmacks_> Yup, that'll still work fine. But the line that needs to be changed moved, so 'patch' will probably barf on an incorrect context for that line.
19:41 < RangerRick> if I still have a patch, I can delete it, kinda pointless now  :)
19:41 < dmacks_> heh
19:42 < RangerRick> so I've finally got to admit I'm an adult
19:42 < RangerRick> bought some art this weekend  :)
19:44 < dmacks_> Cartoon posters aren't art?
19:44 < RangerRick> hehe
19:44 < RangerRick> no
19:50 < dmacks_> Is there perl form of local() that retains the previous value (goal: clone it and work with a copy; have previous value restored when copy goes out of scope)
19:56 < RangerRick> that's what my is for
19:56 -!- vasi [~vasi@modemcable133.147-70-69.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #fink
19:56 < RangerRick> or am I misunderstanding?
19:58 < RangerRick> you can do my $foo = $foo inside a block, fiddle with it, and when you go outside of that block, it's what it was before
19:59 < RangerRick> local is a trick before they had real scoping, perl4 days, really only should be used now to mess with builtins
19:59 < dmacks_> 'my $foo = $foo' is exactly what I wanted (cool interpretter trick!)
20:01  * earth enters hour 19 trying to build kmail on osx4
20:01 < dmacks_> (actually I want to do it with %ENV, so local is probably better)
20:01 < vasi> dmacks, just make sure it's in a block, otherwise the world will blow up
20:01 < earth> turns out there are more than two things that need to get compiled to build this.
20:02 < dmacks_> Oh, I'll make sure...MWAHAHAHAHA!
20:02 < dmacks_> RangerRick: I so'miss'perl4
20:06 < vasi> ok, i think i've finally gotten rid of that last race condition
20:06 < vasi> there are still a few more really unlikely ones that i'm not going to deal with...
20:07 < earth> I wish I had any idea where in this build process I was.  Is there some way that I could tell, for a huge package build, where the build is based on what is compiling?  am I 10%, 50%, 90%? a list of components somewhere for kde that I can find?
20:07 < vasi> for example, if someone runs 'fink cleanup', then randomly deletes the index.db, then re-runs another fink as root while the cleanup is still running....but that's silly to fix
20:08 < vasi> oh wait, that's actually not a race
20:08 < vasi> cool :-)
20:08 < vasi> earth, it's kinda hard...
20:09 < earth> ok, i figured
20:09 < vasi> you can cd to the build-dir, then do 'find -name <some file it's currently compiling>'
20:09 < vasi> then go back to where it created the makefiles (which it creates in the same order that it builds in those dirs)
20:09 < vasi> and see about where you are
20:10 < vasi> except that if there's a test stage, or a doc stage
20:10 < vasi> then it won't help
20:10 < vasi> sorry!
20:11 < vasi> ok, barring any weirdness there are probably no races
20:17 < dmacks_> Aw damn...I was just about to place some $$ on a trifecta.
20:22 < dmacks_> (the pathological example is either xdrawchem or ghemical I think...most source files compile in a few seconds each, but one is reported to take over an hour)
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21:02 < earth> huh, so.. kmail built!  now when I start it, i get an error.
21:02 < lisppaste> earth pasted "kmail not starting" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/10508
21:06 < pogma> you need to install whatever package that library is in, but I have no idea what package that might be
21:07  * earth runs "fink install ktnef"
21:09 < zizban> that looks like the ticket
21:09 < earth> yeah, that looks to have changed things
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21:15 < earth> huh, very too bad, looks like the cut-and-paste between aqua and kde is not yet fixed :(
21:16 < zizban> I never found cutting between x11 and aqua to be all that great
21:27 < earth> right
21:27 < earth> i was hoping that osx4 + new fink builds would improve it
21:27 < earth> crazy, i realize
21:28  * earth has forgotten how to configure x11 to be rootless once it is in that mode
21:33 < zizban> what mode?
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21:49 < earth> full screen.. command+option+a then right click on x11, configuration, then go to prefs..
21:49 < earth> is how to get back out of that mode :)
21:49 < earth> perhaps there's another way, but I didn't find it
21:49 < earth> reboot
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21:58 < vasi> msachs, you around?
21:59 < msachs> heya vasi
22:00 < vasi> have you still been having those weird indexing problems?
22:00 < vasi> i'm back to working on ironing out the remaining issues
22:00 < msachs> I moved back to branch_0_24
22:00 < vasi> once i've committed my changes, could you try to use them?
22:01 < vasi> hopefully it'll be a good stress-test :-)
22:01 < msachs> Sure :)
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22:53 < dmacks> !seen spundun
22:53 < Melian> spundun <~spundun@mermaid.isi.edu> was last seen on IRC in channel #fink, 7d 2h 4m 43s ago, saying: 'akh: I enabled X11 forwarding in /etc/sshd_config recently'.
22:54 < dmacks> RangerRick: Would you care to favor us with a new %v of libxml++?
22:54 < dmacks> (or "favour", or whatever)
22:55 < RangerRick> dmacks: I'll give it a shot tomorrow
22:55 < dmacks> Thanks
23:07 -!- You're now known as RangerAway
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23:24 < vasi> is anybody actually in charge of FinkCommander?
23:25  * dmacks nominates......vasi
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23:25 < dmacks> (Clef_ and broeken have worked on it at various times)
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23:26 < moike> hey, i'm installing bundle-kde-ssl and it's been compiling for about 5 hours now
23:27 < moike> how long does it usually take?
23:27 < dmacks> Potentially a day or two, depending on how many dependencies also need to be built.
23:29 < moike> boo
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--- Log closed Fri Aug 05 00:00:46 2005