--- Log opened Thu Aug 18 00:00:27 2005
--- Day changed Thu Aug 18 2005
00:00 < dmacks_> Hrm, actually no, looks right.
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00:29 < beniamino> is there a fink-ish way of getting hold of the text of the GPL in a .info file? i have a package that is GPL-licensed...
00:29 < beniamino> ... but doesn't contain the text
00:29 < beniamino> download from gnu.org?
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00:37 < dmacks_> beniamino: That would work. Or you could just copy the text that declares the program to be GPLed and include that.
00:37 < dmacks_> Also file a bug report with the program's author that they're not following GPL very well in this regard:)
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00:39 < dmacks_> (oops)
00:39 < beniamino> ok.  they include the 'you should have received a copy; part... but no copy :-)
00:39 < dmacks_> RangerAway: I filed a bug report against apt. Looks like Debian and POSIX are fighting about the issue. Greaaaaat.
00:39 < dmacks_> beniamino: heh
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00:52 < vasi> dmacks_, apt?
00:52  * vasi checks the logs
00:52 < dmacks_> It's a program to download and install binary packages. But that's not important now.
00:54 < vasi> beniamino: a kinda sneaky way would be to just make a copy of fink's own COPYING, in %p/share/doc/fink/COPYING
00:55 < dmacks_> (that's essentially Irix's official policy actually:)
00:55 < beniamino> vasi: that's the kind of sneaky answer i was hoping for :-)
00:56 < dmacks_> vasi: RangerAway is working on upgrading apt, so I was reading through some of the legacy patches we add to see if some are no-longer-needed.
00:57 < vasi> dmacks, any chance we can update dpkg at the same time? newer dpkg has some features that would be nice for synaptic
00:57 < dmacks_> (The issue at hand was the prototype for getsockopt)
00:58 < dmacks_> Go for it.
00:59 < vasi> only problem is we have some major patchage for virtual pkgs...
00:59 < vasi> so hopefully nothing there has changed
00:59 < dmacks_> That's why I said "go for it" and not "sure, no problem" or "okay, I'll do it tonite"
01:01 < vasi> do you know who originally wrote that stuff?
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01:10 < dmacks_> The first dpkg I see with the approximately-current virtpackage implementation was 1.10.9-3, committed by pogma.
01:11 < vasi> i guess i'll ask him when i get around to it, hope he has time
01:11 < dmacks_> I *think* VirtPackage and fink-virtual-pkgs was mostly his baby.
01:13 < vasi> k
01:13 < vasi> have you heard from TheSin about whether he intends to fix the bug in Shlibs?
01:14 < dmacks_> He's been quite scarce lately.
01:14 < dmacks_> Hasn't mentioned that issue.
01:14 < vasi> alright, as we approach 0.25 we'll have to harass him a bit
01:15 < vasi> btw, thanks for all the gnome work
01:15 < dmacks_> Man, dpkg.patch is a prime candidate to split into two files...separate the functional stuff from that doc-fixes for @PREFIX@. Or else just a PatchScript to handle much of that second part.
01:15 < dmacks_> You're welcome.
01:16 < dmacks_> Wish miga would get back...lots of packages are pending a discussion about the freedesktop standard that she seems to sorta-understand.
01:18 < dmacks_> Okay, early-bed for me.
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07:13 < viyyer> I'm installing gtk+2 from fink and I'm getting this dialog I'm confused what to do
07:13 < viyyer> fink needs help picking an alternative to satisfy a virtual dependency. The candidates:
07:13 < viyyer> (1)     xfree86: Free X11 implementation for Darwin and Mac OS X
07:13 < viyyer> (2)     xorg: Free X11 implementation for Darwin and Mac OS X
07:13 < viyyer> (3)     system-xfree86-manual-install: Manually installed X11 components
07:14 < viyyer> I don't want to screw up the MAC box .. doesn't panther have X already
07:15 < viyyer> anyone here ?
07:17 < viyyer> anyways.. I'm trying the third option :)
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08:01 < chris01> viyyer: still here?
08:01 < viyyer> yes chris01 
08:01 < chris01> viyyer: check the FAQ at:
08:02 < viyyer> yeah... the 3rd option seem good to use the default Xserver
08:02 < chris01> http://fink.sourceforge.net/faq/usage-general.php?phpLang=en#x-options
08:02  * viyyer is keeping the fingers crossed
08:02 < chris01> and :
08:02 < chris01> http://fink.sourceforge.net/faq/usage-packages.php?phpLang=en#apple-x11-wants-xfree86
08:03 < viyyer> chris01, there is a Xfree86 which is already installed
08:04 < chris01> Apple's X11 is/can be installed from the Mac OS X install CDs
08:05 < viyyer> chris01, true, it was already installed. and That's the reason I preffered the third option
08:05 < chris01> Make sure to also install X11 SDK
08:05 < viyyer> SDK?
08:06 < viyyer> chris01, when Xfree86 was installed it was a single DMG file which was installed
08:06 < viyyer> are you sure.. I need to go X11 SDK hunting ...
08:06 < chris01> aha, ok. That's not the Apple X11, right?
08:07 < viyyer> nope 
08:07 < chris01> ok, sorry, i misunderstood.
08:07 < viyyer> it was something called xfree86.dmg from apple's website
08:08 < viyyer> hmm.. fink has given me error for choosing the 3rd option
08:09 < viyyer> so I need to fink xfree86 and xfree86sshlibs too
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08:10 < chris01> viyyer: you may want to check out http://developer.apple.com/qa/qa2001/qa1232.html
08:13 < viyyer> chris01, this is the one which was installed earliar
08:14 < viyyer> yes xcode and xfree86 both are installed
08:16 < viyyer> so. that should sufice ?
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08:22 < akh> viyyer:  You're missing something from your XFree86 install.  If you do 'fink list -i xfree86 you _must_ have system-xfree86, system-xfree86-shlibs and system-xfree86-dev ; _and_ for 'fink list x11' you _must_ have x11, x11-shlibs, and x11-dev
08:23 < akh> You don't want to add the X11SDK on top of some other arbitrary XFree86 release.
08:23 < viyyer>  i   system-xfree86     2:4.3-2       [placeholder for user installed x11]
08:23 < viyyer>  i   system-xfree86...  2:4.3-2       [placeholder for user installed x11 development ...
08:23 < viyyer>  i   system-xfree86...  2:4.3-2       [placeholder for user installed x11 shared libra...
08:23 < viyyer> this is what fink -i xfree86 says
08:24 < akh> "fink list x11" is more important.
08:25 < viyyer>  p   x11                              [virtual package]
08:25 < viyyer>      x11-app            1.0-2         Apple's X11.app X server
08:25 < viyyer>      x11-dev                          [virtual package]
08:25 < viyyer>  p   x11-shlibs                       [virtual package]
08:25 < viyyer>      x11-ssh-askpass    1.2.4.1-1     X11-based SSH passphrase dialog
08:25 < akh> Yup--broken.
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08:26 < akh> You're missing a file that is required for x11-dev to be generated.
08:26 < viyyer> akh, so I need to install it again then ?
08:26 < akh> That's right.
08:27 < akh> You can see what file is missing through "fink-virtual-pkgs --debug"
08:29 < viyyer> ok let fink install it 
08:30 < akh> XFree86?  It will build but not install.  You have to remove it manually: last paragraph of  http://fink.sourceforge.net/doc/x11/inst-xfree86.php?phpLang=en#switching-x11 
08:31 < akh> Unlike certain *other* installers, Fink tries not to overwrite things it didn't install.
08:44 < viyyer> akh,  right now.. lemme install install xfree86 
08:45  * viyyer thnks if building xfree86 takes this long on a emac... how long it would run a cyrix for
08:46 < viyyer> be back later 
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09:25 -!- You're now known as RangerRick
09:35 < RangerRick> dmacks: so this stuff doesn't switch out right
09:35 < RangerRick> I think instead I'm gonna change the .dylib's to have different versions
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09:47 < RangerRick> FYI, it's a bad idea to create a package that has a splitoff of the same name  :)
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10:05 < dmacks_> RangerRick: I put a note in current apt.info to remind us WTF's going on with socklen_t
10:06 < RangerRick> ok
10:17 < RangerRick> dmacks_: so it's OK for me to just change it to use socklen_t?
10:18 < dmacks_> Yeh.
10:18 < dmacks_> (assuming you we're not going back to 10.2:)
10:19 < akh> 10.2 ?  What's that?
10:19 < dmacks_> On 10.3/AppleX11, glitz-0.4.4-1 build crashes with 'GL/gl.h: No such file or directory'
10:20 < RangerRick> not for me
10:20 < dmacks_> Hrm
10:20 < RangerRick> do you have /usr/X11R6/include/GL/gl.h ?
10:20 < RangerRick> if not, your apple x11 is incomplete
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10:20 < dmacks_> Ayup, it's there.
10:21 < dmacks_> But -I/usr/X11R6/include isn't passed
10:23 < dmacks_> Whoa, my installation looks nothing like the contents of X11SDK/Archive.bom!
10:23 < dmacks_> ne'ermind for now.
10:24 < RangerRick> :)
10:25 < akh> heh--you violated your warranty.  :-P
10:25 < dmacks_> s/you/Installer.app/
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10:26 < akh> Right--I meant "you" as in "you foolishly used Installer.app, and it"
10:27 < dmacks_> Looks like I've got a real directory /usr/include/X11 instead of a symlink to /usr/X11R6/include,and various .h in one place *or* the other
10:27 < dmacks_> Ah okay, akh...that makes sense.
10:28  * akh phears what would happen if installer.app ran automatically.
10:29 < dmacks_> It would give Tiger users a libSystem that didn't have the 64-bit components?
10:29 < akh> That'd be a bad start.
10:29 < dmacks_> Welcome to earlier-this-week.
10:30 < akh> Was that the past Security Update?
10:30 < dmacks_> Ya
10:30 < akh> grr
10:30 < akh> What's the diagnostic to determine if this happened here?
10:31 < akh> nm--the update to the update is available.
10:31 < dmacks_> Good. /me 
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10:38 < dmacks_> I think 'file /usr/lib/libSystem.dylib' would tell you which architectures are included.
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10:41 < akh> mmm...updated update....
10:42 < dmacks_> < dmacks_> I think 'file /usr/lib/libSystem.dylib' would tell you which architectures are included.
10:42 < akh> ah
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10:45  * akh restarts the wki
10:45 < akh> I'm glad I don't have it on a Windows box
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11:38  * zizban yawns. Has interview soon
11:41 < akh> for what?
11:42 < zizban> trying to move from special ed to computers
11:42 < akh> ah
11:42 < zizban> yes
11:42 < akh> Though with some of the users...
11:43 < zizban> ya but I'll teach computers and some apps all day instead of telling someone for the 100th time cat is not spelled k-a-t
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11:48 < akh> True.
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12:09 < zizban> time to go
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12:48  * drm has a simple perl question
12:48 < drm> what is "$>"?
12:50 < drm> (and how does one get a list of these kinds of built-ins?)
12:50 < dmacks> 'man perlvar'
12:50 < drm> thanks for the fishing lesson :)
12:51 < dmacks> Heh.../me answered the second question first:)
12:51 < drm> (as in "give a man a fish... teach a man to fish...")
12:52 < dmacks> Give a man a cup of coffee, he'll be warm for an hour; set him on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
12:52  * drm looks for fire extinguisher
12:54  * dmacks was in Anchorage science museum few years ago, saw a good exhibit about the shapes of bubbles; in the "bubbles in everyday life" section they had a fire extenguisher and talked about how foam smothers a fire. Except it was a dry-chemical extinguisher.
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12:58 < akh> dmacks: details, details...
13:03 < drm> ok, if I can't run sudo, i can't build-as-nobody... shall i build-as-self?
13:06 < akh> So nobody requires sudo
13:06 < akh> ?
13:06 < drm> chown requires sudo
13:06 < akh> ah
13:07 < akh> It kind of seems like that's the only option, doesn't it?
13:07 < drm> i'm gonna try build-as-self
13:08 < dmacks> akh: no, *everybody* requires sudo, including nobody.
13:09 < dmacks> drm: Any thoughts about my -devel msg regarding Depends:base-files?
13:09 < akh> heh
13:09 < drm> dmacks: haven't seen it... how recent is it?
13:10 < dmacks> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.os.macosx.fink.devel/11210
13:10  * akh wishes gmane.org would somehow encode the web URL into their NNTP feeds as well.
13:11 < dmacks> akh: Post to gmane.discuss
13:11 < akh> Good idea.
13:12  * dmacks wishes -commits would come back from the dead, but that's not gmane's fault.
13:12 < akh> Yeah
13:13 < akh> Shouldn't blame the messenger.
13:13 < dmacks> drm: thanks.
13:14 < dmacks> (makes a quick heuristic to find out which pkgs break when one "just sets PATH" instead of loading init.*sh too)
13:15 < drm> so "symlink" is a perl primitive?
13:18 < dmacks> Ayup
13:19  * drm wishes he knew why its failing
13:19 < dmacks> Check the error variables?
13:19 < akh> hmmm...looks like the mailing lists may be coming back to life.
13:20 < drm> well, there is a symlink there... the fink code checks to see if it exists, and if it doesn't, creates it...i got an error from the *creation* command
13:20 < drm> so probably the think that failed was the existence check?
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13:21 < drm> and the silly thing is on an afp-mounted volume, so it may not realize what a symlink is
13:21 < drm> (just speculating about that)
13:22 < msachs> AFP knows how to deal with symlinks.
13:22  * msachs goes to read context...
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13:22 < drm> msachs: i'm trying to bootstrap fink on a machine where i don't have admin access
13:23 < drm> putting it into ~/sw
13:23 < msachs> Mmhm.
13:23 < drm> its an interesting exercise :)
13:23 < dmacks> Where in the code is this?
13:23 < drm> dmacks: search on Path-prefix in PkgVersion.pm
13:23 < drm> (cvs HEAD)
13:23 < pieter_> this might not be the right place to ask this question, but can someone please tell me what package i need to install to install gnome on tiger
13:24 < drm> "Path-prefix link" might be better
13:24 < dmacks> Can you do a one-liner   perl -e 'symlink "/tmp", "the-funky-place" or die'
13:24 < pieter_> i want the version of gnome that installs with fedora core 1
13:24 < akh> pieter_: bundle-gnome
13:25 < pieter_> i tried to get that by typing: fink install bundle-gnome
13:25 < dmacks> Note that some components of gnome might be out-of-sync with a full distro like fedora.
13:26 < drm> dmacks: it died
13:26 < pieter_> this is the response i get:Information about 1766 packages read in 3 seconds.
13:26 < pieter_> Failed: no package found for specification 'bundle-gnome'!
13:27 < dmacks> drm: check $!
13:27 < msachs> drm: Change die to die "Couldn't symlink: $!"
13:27 < pieter_> dmacks: i just want to make sure the window dressing is the same
13:28 < pieter_> what's the command i issue then, if "fink install bundle-gnome" does not work?
13:28 < dmacks> There are a few FAQs that discuss why some packages might not be found by you.
13:29 < drm> couldnt symlink, file exists
13:29 < msachs> Okay, and does it?
13:29 < dmacks> pieter_: fink.sf.net/faq 5.8 perhaps?
13:29 < drm> msachs: i'm confused about the syntax
13:30 < msachs> perldoc -f symlink
13:30 < pieter_> i'll have a look ... be right back
13:30 < akh> pieter_: http://fink.sourceforge.net/faq/usage-fink.php?phpLang=en#unstable
13:31 < drm> msachs, dmacks: ah, so unlike unix ln, you can't symlink into a directory, you have to specify the full filename
13:31 < drm> that works
13:31  * dmacks wishes emacs had a way to do perldoc on whatever-word-is-under-the-cursor 
13:31 < dmacks> drm: Right.
13:32 -!- Murr [n=neeri@A17-202-20-71.apple.com] has joined #fink
13:32 < dmacks> (that is the standard C symlink() way, not the DWIMish way of /usr/bin/ln)
13:33 < pieter_> dmacks: thanks for your help.  just one question before i try this out: the bundle-gnome is a bundle of several packages, right?
13:34 < pieter_> if so, is it better to check out the entire unstable tree
13:34 < dmacks> pieter_: Correct. It's a huge dependency jungle:(
13:34 < pieter_> so i should use the first suggestion in the faq, right?
13:35 < akh> yes
13:35 < pieter_> akh: i'm assuming that's an answer to my question. if so, thanks.
13:35 < akh> pieter_: it was.  ;-)
13:36 < pieter_> cool. thanks guys. i really appreciate all of your help. now i'm off to check out "bundle-gnome"
13:43 < pieter_> for the most stable version of the tree, should i stick to point releases when doing a fink selfupdate?
13:43 < akh> That's stable in the sense of "almost never updated"
13:43 < dmacks> heh
13:43 < akh> If you're going to be building from source anyway, use rsync updates.
13:43 < pieter_> ok
13:43 < pieter_> thanks akh
13:44 < akh> pieter_: No problem.  You can probably turn the unstable tree off after you're done with GNOME.
13:45 < akh> Yay!  The mailing lists are back!
13:45 < dmacks> w00t!
13:45 < runelind> I haven't had to recompile kde in weeks now, what's the deal ;p
13:45 < akh> RangerRick: hasn'
13:45 < akh> t finished the next release yet.
13:46 < akh> Talk about wacko-elitism.  ;-)
13:46 < runelind> I'm used to having to do it every day ;p
13:47 < akh> You can always do a rebuild--the power company won't mind.  ;-)
13:47 < runelind> yeah I'm going to have to start paying for my own electricity now :-/
13:48 < akh> Hook a generator up to an exercise bike.  :-)
13:48 < akh> Compiling KDE would put you in triathalon shape.  :D
13:48 < runelind> been thinking about making a solar panel or two
13:48 < akh> Also good.
13:51 < runelind> argh I need caffeine
13:51 < runelind> but they're having a meeting in the room with the refridgerator
14:10 < dmacks> If cirdan hadn't broken Melian, she could get you some coffee.
14:17 < akh> We need a server bot.
14:17 < akh> Coffee, beer, other "services..."
14:19 -!- msachs_ [n=msachs@A17-201-20-233.apple.com] has joined #fink
14:27 < dmacks> Temptress- ?
14:27 -!- msachs [n=msachs@A17-255-100-106.apple.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
14:33 < pieter_> hi guys, i have finished doing the fink selfupdate; fink index; fink scanpackages
14:33 < dmacks> msachs_: Okay, new validator is almost done. Could you run 'fink -v validate' using fink HEAD (the "old" validator) on your .deb collection and collect STDOUT/STDERR and total runtime?
14:34 < msachs_> dmacks: Will do.
14:34 < dmacks> danke.
14:34 < msachs_> de nada
14:34 < pieter_> i was wondering which alternative i should choose to satisfy the "virtual dependency"? gnome-vfs2 or gnome-vfs2-ssl
14:35 < pieter_> the default is 1
14:35 < pieter_> or gnome-vfs2
14:35 < drm> pieter_: i suggest choosing the -ssl version whenever you are given the choice
14:35 < pieter_> ok, thanks
14:36 < pieter_> what is -ssl
14:37 < drm> uses fink's ssl library for secure connections over the network
14:37 < pieter_> oh (secure socket layer)
14:37 < drm> it is separate because there may be issues about exporting this
14:37 < pieter_> got it
14:37 < pieter_> thanks, drm
14:37 < drm> and also because there is some issue of libssl being incompatible with the GPL
14:38 < drm> under certain circumstances
14:38 < pieter_> one last question (assuming all goes well now ...): any idea how long it takes to download and install the entire bundle-gnome?
14:38 < pieter_> i'm on a 1GHz PowerBook ...
14:39 < akh> pieter_: Downloading time depends on your network connection, of course.
14:39 < drm> the download depends on your net connection speed
14:39 < akh> pieter_: and the compile time is probably a couple of days.
14:39 < drm> once the source is downloaded, the compile will take several hours or more
14:39 < drm> akh: its not kde :)
14:39 < pieter_> yeah ... i think the current speed is about 2Mbps
14:39 < akh> drm:  I thought GNOME took a while, too--maybe I'm misremembering.
14:40 < drm> well, it takes hours and hours but i don't think it takes days
14:40 < pieter_> but that may not be the speed it's actually downloading at ...
14:40 < pieter_> it's reporting about 400k right now ... (might be the site)
14:41 < pieter_> installing will be a long while then ... yikers
14:42 < pieter_> hey, before i go, i would like to thank all of you who have helped. i really appreciate it.
14:43 < akh> no problem
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15:12 < vasi> hey RR, whatcha trying to do to apt?
15:12 < RangerRick> vasi: update it  :)
15:13 < RangerRick> the original goal was not having to patch aptitude to use old apt headers
15:13 < RangerRick> but I bit off way more than would be worth it for that
15:13 < RangerRick> but I'm at the "what the heck" stage
15:13 < RangerRick> :)
15:13 < vasi> well, what's the deal with separating the libs?
15:13 < RangerRick> there are some things that link against the libs
15:14 < RangerRick> and they're not compatible (in a number of ways)
15:14 < RangerRick> first, they consider "3.2" and "3.3" the major number
15:14 < RangerRick> so they're not the same compat version
15:14 < vasi> the broke compatibility versions? damn
15:14 < RangerRick> second, libapt-inst is major version 1.0 in both, but the symbols are different
15:15 < vasi> ok, well....while we're updating apt, do you think we could have it build apt-ftparchive as part of apt?
15:15 < RangerRick> is that OK?  didn't know if we wanted a builddep on db4 for apt
15:15 < RangerRick> would mean having db4 during bootstrap, would it not?
15:15 < vasi> yes...probably we'd want apt-ftparchive to link in db4 statically
15:15 < akh> ewwwww
15:15 < vasi> so that db4 and db4-ssl could still be swapped
15:16 < akh> That's better.
15:16 < RangerRick> can we link db4 against system-ssl and get rid of the distinction?  ;)
15:16 < vasi> RR, that would be even better
15:17 < vasi> but we've yet to decide on what we're going to do about *-ssl
15:17 < RangerRick> I took it upon myself to do that for KDE
15:17 < vasi> wanna hold a snap vote now, while nobody's paying attention? ;-)
15:17 < RangerRick> yes
15:17 < RangerRick> hehe
15:17  * RangerRick votes we let things link against system-ssl
15:17 < vasi> you're building kde against system ssl?
15:18 < RangerRick> yup
15:18 < RangerRick> in my exp I now have kdelibs3-unified and kdebase3-unified
15:18 < RangerRick> with old-style package names just depending on them
15:18 < akh> Or just make everything link to fink's SSL so that most of the distro is Restrictive.
15:18 < akh> ;-)
15:18 < RangerRick> akh: or that
15:18 < akh> Weed out the binary users.
15:20 < vasi> dmacks and I were discussing the possibility of an "Obsoletes: foo" field...which would basically tell fink 'make a new package foo that is just a dummy depending on this package'
15:20 < akh> What happens if Apple decides to update the system's openssl for some reason? 
15:20 < vasi> and then 'fink cleanup' would remove all the obsoleted dummy packages
15:21 < akh> cleanup --dummies ?
15:21 < vasi> akh, what happens if apple updates the system's libz?
15:21 < akh> breakage ?
15:21 < RangerRick> nope
15:21 < vasi> if it's a minor update, it works fine
15:21 < akh> ah
15:21  * RangerRick is of the opinion that apple updating libcrypto couldn't be worse than the db42/db42-ssl/etc. fiasco that happens now
15:22 < akh> true
15:22 < vasi> if they decide to remove it or something silly, then that's a problem
15:22 < akh> Right--and it's not our damn fault at that point.
15:22 < vasi> we'll have to rely on msachs to warn us about anything major
15:22 -!- msachs [n=msachs@A17-255-100-106.apple.com] has joined #fink
15:22 < vasi> hi msachs :-)
15:23 < akh> Wonder if he's got something major to warn us about? :-)
15:23 < vasi> but i'd really like to deprecate crypto as much as possible
15:23 < RangerRick> yeah
15:23 < akh> What?  Expand binary availability?  That's crazy talk.
15:23 < akh> ;-)
15:24 < akh> (Actually it seems sensible)
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15:25 < akh> Anything that needs a later openssl than the system's could still have a Restrictive license--I'm still not sure whether we need a separate crypto tree legally or not.
15:26 < RangerRick> I don't htink there's anything that needs newer than 0.9.7
15:26 < RangerRick> 0.9.8 is pretty recent and most stuff is still source-compat back to 0.9.6
15:26 < akh> Ah
15:27 < akh> Guess we can still provide an openssl package for people who want to roll their own packages.
15:28 < vasi> according to debian, even the other crypto stuff can probably be moved into main
15:28 < akh> Right
15:28 < akh> I wasn't sure if they could do it because they're a complete OS or for some other reason.
15:29 < RangerRick> vasi: is that so?  even without submitting changes to the gov't?
15:29 < vasi> i believe we just have to send some notice to the US govt
15:30  * akh listens for the black helicopters.  ;-)
15:30 < vasi> or you could all just move up to Canada :-P
15:31 < akh> Nah--your gov't completely cut funding for my research area a few years ago, so no job.
15:31 < das_> akh: ?
15:32 < akh> At list here it's slim pickings rather than no pickings.  ;-)
15:32 < akh> least
15:32 < akh> das_:  fusion energy research
15:32 < das_> Heh.
15:32  * das_ reflects on the fact that he works for a fusion program at UW.
15:32 < das_> :p
15:34 < das_> http://fti.neep.wisc.edu/
15:34  * akh was a grad student in physics at UW.
15:34 < das_> No shit?
15:34 < akh> yup
15:34  * das_ also.
15:34 < das_> Medical physics, though.
15:35 < das_> Which you're probably aware is a standalone department here.
15:35 < akh> Yup. ;-)
15:35 < das_> I almost went to work for NIF.
15:35 < das_> At LLNL.
15:35 < akh> Yah--not a good option right now.
15:35 -!- msachs_ [n=msachs@A17-201-20-233.apple.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
15:35 < das_> So where are you now?
15:35 < akh> "visiting" MIT.
15:35 < das_> Heh.
15:35 < akh> (meaning I've been here for 5 years but the checks come from elsewhere)
15:35 < das_> Heh.
15:35 < das_> You know, I'd love more fusion funding.
15:35 < das_> But I wouldn't completely write off US investment in fusion.
15:35 < das_> It's not where I think it should be, but still.
15:35 < akh> Yeah.
15:36 < akh> It generally trends with the price of gas at the pump.
15:36 < das_> Well.
15:37 < akh> Historically, anyway.
15:37 < das_> Everyone seems to want something that makes gas $0.99.
15:37 < akh> Renormalize the dollar.
15:37 < akh> That's about all that will do it at this point.
15:37 < das_> It's tremendously underpriced as it is, artificially, given demand and supply.
15:37 < akh> true.
15:38 -!- dmacks_ [n=dmacks@203-137.dialup.cloud9.net] has joined #fink
15:38 < das_> The new energy bill goes in the right direction with nuclear.
15:39 < das_> http://www.nei.org/index.asp?catnum=3&catid=1351
15:39 < das_> Particularly construction of new fission plants.
15:39 < akh> Yeah--we'll see how it plays out with licensure and the like.
15:39 < akh> That whole NIMBY thing.
15:39 < das_> Heh.
15:39 < das_> Well.
15:39 < das_> That's where China has an advantage.
15:40 < das_> NIMBY? Too fucking bad.
15:40 < akh> I'd rather have a nuke plant than a windmill chopping up birds on my lawn.  ;-)
15:40 < das_> Not that I'd rather the US was China.
15:40 < dmacks_> Yeah. Let's put windmills in the harbor...what's the chance that all the celebrities who promote savin' the environment and whatnot won't bitch about spoiling their pristine view.
15:40 < akh> Almost none.
15:40 < akh> The free weekly paper here had an article called "Hypocrisy in Hyannis"
15:41 < das_> Heh.
15:41 < dmacks_> Thanks; /me couldn't remember the name of the place.
15:42 < akh> yup
15:43 < chris01> hi
15:44 < chris01> how is 0.24.9 doing in the wild?
15:44 < dmacks_> Anyone wise in the ways of printf formatting? What does "(?:%s|%s)" do?
15:44 < akh> chris01: people seem to like it.
15:44 < dmacks_> chris01: No complaints, coupla positives.
15:44 < chris01> sounds good.
15:45 < chris01> positive from my side too. 4 machines, 3 10.3, 1 10.4
15:45 < chris01> and a binary dist server.
15:45 < chris01> all seem to like 0.24.9
15:46  * dmacks_ keeps wondering why we still force gettext-dev after each selfupdate, but with the new swappy-code doesn't really matter that much.
15:46 < chris01> mhmm... right.
15:46 < chris01> i was wondering too.
15:46 < akh> dmacks_: Because it's Essential ?
15:47 < chris01> akh: i think its not
15:47 < dmacks_> I should hope it's not!
15:47 < chris01> it's just one of those "important" packages
15:48 < chris01> they get installed after each selfupdate
15:48 < dmacks_> (otherwise libgettext3-dev, which Replaces/Conflicts:gettext-dev, would be unusable)
15:49 < akh> Ah
15:49  * dmacks_ just found a 10.4T/stable that still relies on implicit Depends:gettext
15:49 < akh> If Melian were here you could fishslap the maintainer.
15:49 < chris01> akh: 
15:50 < dmacks_> Yeah, that "None" <fink-devel> is really startin' to piss me off.
15:50 < akh> It probably hasn't been updated in forever.
15:50 < dmacks_> Wow, it's even in bindist that way.
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15:51 < akh> icky
15:51 < dmacks_> I fixed it in unstable; should I just remove it from stable?
15:52 < akh> Umm...why remove it--why not update it (given some feedback)?
15:53 < dmacks_> While fixing it, I bumped it to gettext3 and found other missing deps that also aren't present in stable.
15:54 < vasi> dmacks, is that printf trying to create a regex?
15:55 < dmacks_> Hrm....
15:55 < dmacks_> Yup. Good call!
15:55 < dmacks_> Okay, /me understands it now:)
15:58 < akh> dmacks_: what package
15:58 < akh> ?
15:58 < dmacks_> "thanks for documenting what you were doing when you wrote that, dmacks!"
15:58 < dmacks_> akh: indent
15:58 < akh> hmm
15:59 < akh> I kind of doubt that general userdom makes much use of that.
15:59 < dmacks_> Unchanged since msek wrote it back, around when 10.2 first appeared.
16:00 < akh> Yeah it could probably go away until gettext3 migrates to stable.
16:00 < akh> (and any other unstable deps)
16:00  * dmacks_ hopes gettext3 goes stable soon.
16:00 < RangerRick> me too
16:01 < akh> fink-0.24.9's gotta go first
16:01 < akh> How much positive feedback do we need?
16:02 < dmacks_> Do any of the 0.25 blockers apply to 0.24.x?
16:02  * dmacks_ answers "no"
16:03 < dmacks_> Prolly a good idea to check that it's well-propagated to the mirrors.
16:03 < vasi> "apply"?
16:04 < akh> vasi:  or "are even the slightest bit relevant to"
16:04 < dmacks_> Yeah, what akh said.
16:04 < vasi> well, in the sense that "0.24.x doesn't have those features"
16:04 < akh> how about implicit Source?
16:06 < dmacks_> akh: It can stay for now...we'll nuke it in 0.25; it'll only become really-annoying-to-support when the Funky New Source Syntax appears.
16:06 < akh> Sure--that was the only item I saw that exists in 0.24.x
16:06 < dmacks_> Also the improved "literal InfoN field" validator backport.
16:07 < akh> Or the Depends:base-files validator item, too.
16:07 < dmacks_> Also a new validator check for broken .pc files.
16:07 < akh> But these really aren't 0.24.9 blockers, are they?
16:08 < akh> (or move-to-stable blockers)
16:08 < dmacks_> I think all of these fall into "enhancements", no reason to not-stabilize 0.24.9, or even bother releasing a 0.24.10 at all.
16:09 < akh> I agree--we should probably send a message to -devel and/or -core so that it's not done on the basis of "people talking on #fink"
16:09 < akh> Because we all know how well that is received...
16:10 < dmacks_> Given that most of the only people that do stuff just read this msg...
16:10 < akh> yup
16:10 < vasi> i still have no idea if/when the finkcommander folks intend to apply my patch
16:10 < akh> Still seems pretty warm underground.  ;-)
16:11 < akh> haven't seen broeken around recently, either.
16:11 < dmacks_> No pigs taxiing at Laguardia...
16:12 < dmacks_> Clef was lightly working on it for a while, but he's been silent and inactive here and there lately.
16:15 < vasi> Clef actally replied, but only to say he thinks incremental indexing will never work
16:15 < dmacks_> vasi: Is there a way to have perl bitch if I use a non-existent but fully-qualified variable $Some::Thing::typo_here like it does for simple $typo_here?
16:15  * akh disappears, hoping that 0.24.9 will be in stable when I'm back online.  ;-)
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16:15 < vasi> dmacks, not as far as i know
16:15 < vasi> i've been bit by that before too
16:15 < vasi> maybe ask on irc.perl?
16:15 < dmacks_> Which irc server?
16:16 < dmacks_> Maybe I'll pay clp.moderated a visit...
16:18 < vasi> hey, do you know what happened to Blair Zajac?
16:19 < dmacks_> Long time, no see:(
16:19 < vasi> i think he used to maintain our unison packages, which are now a real mess
16:19 < dmacks_> Yeah, /me saw the mailing list msgs
16:19 < vasi> we have unison.info with a -nox variant...also a unison-nox.info with a lower version
16:19 < dmacks_> That latter is almost certainly nukable.
16:22 < vasi> yup
16:25 < dmacks_> Does it make sense to have 'use Foo;' in a module and then (in a certain block in that module) 'require Foo'?
16:25 -!- JesseW is now known as JesseW_away
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16:33 < pieter_> i was trying to install the bundle-gnome but ran into this message: Failed: can't install package system-ghostscript8-8.51-1
16:33 < dmacks_> Was there more to the error message than that? Feel free to lisppaste it...
16:33 < dmacks_> lisppaste: help
16:33 < lisppaste> To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/fink and enter your paste.
16:34 < pieter_> i found someone online who had had a similar problem and it was suggested to him that he remove the ghostscript-fonts
16:35 < lisppaste> pieter_ pasted "ghostscript error message" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/10895
16:36 < dmacks_> So nu? It tells you exactly what's wrong:)
16:36 < dmacks_> Did you install gnostscript version 8.51 in /usr/local?
16:36 < pieter_> no, but i thought i asked it to in the process ...
16:37 < pieter_> in the beginning it asked a number of questions including which alternative ghostscript version to grab (or so i thought)
16:37 < dmacks_> Looks like you asked for the system-ghostscript one, which depends on having a pre-existng ghostscript that you installed manually.
16:38 < pieter_> now that you mention it, i believe that is what i did (although by accident then)
16:39 < dmacks_> The whole idea of the system-* packages is pretty confusing sometimes:(
16:41 < vasi> dmacks, use Foo is compile-time (sorta)....so the require Foo is redundant
16:42 < vasi> shouldn't system-* be a virtual package?
16:43 < vasi> (i guess fink will still probably ask about them though, grr)
16:43 < dmacks_> vasi: That's what I thought. /me was trying various ways in a vain attempt to turn &foo into a compile-time error if no such sub exists:(
16:43 < vasi> would be nice if we had a special syntax for system-* packages, so they could be defined in .info files rather than in VirtPackage.pm...
16:44 < vasi> dmacks, i think if you don't do the &, it becomes an error?
16:44 < vasi> not sure though
16:44 < dmacks_> At least drm could copy the New Improved InstallScript from VirtPackage?
16:45 < dmacks_> Nope, it always seems to be only a runtime error (when it actually tries to do foo)
16:46 < dmacks_> I guess 'cuz of autoloading no way to know all symbols at compile-time?
16:48 -!- JesseW_away is now known as JesseW
16:48 < dmacks_> OTOH, /me learned the hard way not to mess with the use/require/import zoo we have...
16:49 < vasi> as i've said before, i wouldn't be averse to a certain amount of refactoring
16:49 < vasi> many things are just randomly in Services or PkgVersion
16:50 < dmacks_> You could've saved some RSI by stopping typing after "om"
16:50 < dmacks_> (all of CLI used to be in Services also!)
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17:02 < pieter_> dmacks: sorry i had a phone call i had to get, so i missed the last couple posts ... what should i do now that it's complaining about ghostscript
17:02 < pieter_> can i rerun the install command?
17:03 < dmacks_> Yup. Either pick the ghostscript option that isn't system-, or else manually install ghostscript (from some source other than fink) first.
17:06 < dmacks_> FYI, this channel is logged, so you can always look at previous msgs even if you have no scrollback buffer.
17:07 < pieter_> got it.
17:08 < pieter_> by the way, now that i've messed up the ghostscript question, perhaps it's best to ask you about the graphics manipulation programs and libraries: which one should i choose? netpbm-shlibs? or netpbm10-shlibs?
17:09 < dmacks_> netpbm is version 9 (didn't bother calling it netpbm9 because at the time we didn't know there would be a 10:)
17:09 < pieter_> ok ... i'll just pick the latest one then.
17:10 < dmacks_> Ayup. There are many packages that require a specific version of things (usually but not always the latest), but given the choice I assume progress generally moves forwards.
17:10 < pieter_> me too
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17:23 < dmacks_> 'Error: File "/sw/man/" installed into deprecated directory /sw/man/'
17:23  * dmacks_ thinks fink has a few things to learn about set theory:)
17:26 < zizban> the null set
17:26 < dmacks_> heh
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17:51 < dmacks_> megahal: Have you seen the other bots?
17:51 < megahal> dmacks_: You have to throw it out right in front of us, do you think you're trying to kill each other.
17:52 < zizban> wow, that almost made sense
17:56 < dmacks_> Yeah, it took a subset of the stuff it knows, threw it in random places, and hoped it would work well enough.
17:57 < dmacks_> Which means megahal==Installer.app ?
17:57 < zizban> heh
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18:04 < zizban> oh good my monitor is due here on 23rd
18:04 < dmacks_> whee!
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21:06 < akh> heh--/me just had a brain fart.
21:07 < zizban> happens to me all the time
21:07 < msachs> At least you didn't try to blame it on the dog.
21:07  * dmacks_ wears charcoal-filter earplugs:)
21:08 < akh> I thought I ssh'ed into my Debian box (by IP) but wound up connecting to the local computer instead.
21:08 < akh> And I wondered why my apt-get update didn't work.
21:08 < dmacks_> Heh
21:08 < msachs> I spent a long time this morning thinking that /usr/bin/open was broken on our latest x86 build, but no, I was SSH'd elsewhere.  When I sat down at the other machine, it had a lot of plists open...
21:09  * akh does that, too.
21:09  * dmacks_ often forgets a trailing : when scp'ing files to remote machine, then can't figure out why remote machine doesn't have the files and why remote machine appears to be mounted in local directory.
21:10 < akh> heh
21:10 < msachs> dmacks: Up to the i's on that validate run, btw.
21:10 < dmacks_> msachs: Wow...you're gonna *love* the new code then.
21:10 < msachs> Is there some reason why gettext insisted on looking for cpp in /lib during an x86 bootstrap, btw? 
21:11 < msachs> dmacks_: So you want me to do validate with a different fink when that finishes?  Where's the different fink?  I should start that run as soon as this one finishes, since the machine I'm running on goes bye-bye tomorrow when I fly back east.
21:13 < dmacks_> Start with fink HEAD, then use the PkgVersion.pm and Validation.pm from the val-unpack branch.
21:13 < msachs> k
21:14  * dmacks_ sees order of magnitude or more speedup, but want to make sure I get the same results:)
21:14 < zizban> heh
21:15 < msachs> And that the results are equivalent :)
21:15 < akh> Eh, reproducibility is overrated.
21:16 < dmacks_> Yeah, "equivalent" is better, since I changed a bunch of wordings, and I think in a few places I made it continue and find all errors instead of stopping after finding one.
21:16 < msachs> Then I guess you won't mind a little visit to the vet for a "special procedure", akh ;P
21:16 < akh> pass
21:17 < dmacks_> OTOH, let's not use euphemisms here msachs...let's call a spayed a spayed.
21:17 < msachs> *rimshot*
21:17 < zizban> frontal lobotomy? been there, done that :)
21:17 < akh> snickers
21:17 < akh> hmmm...the parser didn't register that as a verb
21:18 < zizban> heh
21:18 < dmacks_> (turns out unpacking a .deb is only slightly slower than reading its contents list, and not trying to extract dozens of files from the .deb each in its own system() more than overcomes that)
21:20 < dmacks_> As a bonus, validation during -m mode happens before the .deb is even constructed, so you don't get those broken .deb laying around.
21:20 < msachs> Cool.
21:21 < zizban> cool
21:22 < dmacks_> As an even bigger bonus, we are now quite OS X 10.2-incompatible:)
21:22 < akh> Drive that stake through the Jaguar's heart.
21:23  * zizban takes out his hammer and stake
21:24  * akh hopes I didn't need the package that I just uninstalled because of a bad .deb file.
21:24 < akh> Nothing depended on it, so It's probably OK.
21:25 < zizban> yes
21:28 < akh> box switch
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21:35  * dmacks_ just got spam advertising "COLLEGE COEDS DOING IT DODGY STYLE"
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21:35 < msachs> Isn't that what most of them do?
21:36 < dmacks_> Hrm, true.
21:37 < zizban> you, doing it on a dodge?
21:38 < zizban> that was incomprehensible
21:38 < zizban> nm
21:38 < zizban> I am tired
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21:39 < msachs> Okay, i386-apple-darwin8\.[0-2]\.[0-1] is a shitty regex.
21:39 < msachs> "8.3.1, eh?  Guess you're on 10.2!"
21:41 < dmacks_> Yeah, that code's a mess in there. At one point we had separate regexen that matched stuff like darwin6.[0-5] and darwin6.[6-9] and then did the same thing in each case.
21:42 < dmacks_> I think pogma worked there last, trying to patch in some modern-darwin/i86 handling.
21:43 < dmacks_> Given that we nuked the 10.2 and 10.2-gcc3.3 bootstrap pkgs, I don't understand why we would ever return that as a result.
21:53 -!- akh [n=akhansen@68-118-244-23.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #fink
21:54  * akh verified that I removed a package that specifically said "can be removed with no ill effects"
21:55 < zizban> ok
21:55 < zizban> prepare for breakage!
21:55 < akh> zizban: nah--it's just for initial Debian setup, I guess.
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21:55 < akh> I'm not worried.
21:56 < zizban> ah
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22:56 < pieter_> i've been installing bundle-gnome and just ran into an error installing libwnck1-2.6.2-5
22:56 < pieter_> anyone know what i can do to fix that?
22:59 < pieter_> here's the error: http://paste.lisp.org/display/10908
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23:00 < lisppaste> pieter_ pasted "can't install package libwnck1-2.6.2-5" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/10908
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23:12 < dmacks> aw damn.../me made typo in libwnck1:(
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23:13 < dmacks> pieter_: do 'fink remove libwnck1.16'
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23:17 < dmacks> (will be fixed in libwnck1-2.6.2-6)
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23:34 < pieter_> i'm trying to install bundle-gnome, but i'm getting some errors. can anyone help me?
23:34 < pieter_> here is the error report:
23:35 < lisppaste> pieter pasted "latest error message" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/10913
23:36 < pieter_> the error message doesn't tell me much. i'm not even sure where to look.
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23:40 < dmacks> pieter_: that's a weird one; just saw it for the first time on a mailing list toay.
23:40 < pieter_> i was looking at it on a mailing list as well
23:42 < pieter_> From the mailing list, Alexander Hansen the Fink Documentarian says to determine which package is failing
23:42 < pieter_> how can i tell though?
23:43 < pieter_> is it just the gnome-terminal-2.6.1-8? after all, it says, "Removing fink-buildlock-gnome-terminal-2.6.1-8 ... Failed: phase compiling: gnome-terminal-2.6.1-8 failed"
23:43 < dmacks> Yup.
23:44 < pieter_> would it be worth trying to install the package separately?
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23:45 < dmacks> dunno...doubt it.
23:46 < dmacks> We're in the process of upgrading gnome; right now many libs are done but gnome-terminal is not; maybe new libs have changed just subtly enough to confuse gnome-terminal?
23:47 < pieter_> maybe ... is it possible to install gnome terminal 2.6.1-7?
23:48 < dmacks> Sure! 2.6.1-7 is even available pre-compiled.
23:49 < pieter_> sorry, i'm' really new to fink and i'm not really a programmer (electrical engineer with a little programming experience) ... how do i specify 2.6.1-7?
23:49 < dmacks> 'fink install gnome-terminal-2.6.1-7' might work.
23:51 < pieter_> oh. now i feel stupid. next question: when i try to install the bundle-gnome, then, how can i tell it to skip trying to build the gnome-terminal (as it will already be built after using 'fink install gnome-terminal-2.6.1-7'
23:53 -!- dk0rr [n=dk0r@cpe-24-194-171-176.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit []
23:54 < pieter_> dmacks: it's not working for gnome-terminal-2.6.1-7 either
23:55 < pieter_> same error
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--- Log closed Fri Aug 19 00:00:10 2005